How can wiggle be so cheap and fast?

[DirtyWorks]

Yeah, I was disagreeing with the implication that Ribble and/or Wiggle were dealing with stuff illegally

Let's review.

Campag, like many manufacturers have different prices for different channels and countries. If you are a builder, you get one generally good price. If you are a retailer you get another, generally less good price.

If you buy from Campag, they will have specific terms and conditions for becoming a customer that helps them maintain price levels worldwide. What if you are a retailer a little short on cash, but have a stack of Campag bike kits in the corner? You can turn that into cash by completely violating the terms of your customer contract in a creative way and live to fight another day.

Is it illegal? Yes.
Is it gray/black market? Yes
Can Campag control it? No

If Ribble/Wiggle are blowing Campag's price levels away chances are excellent there's very creative interpretations of any reseller agreements at work.

Are the prices *sometimes* a gray market deal that violates Campag's agreements? Probably.
Can Campag control it? No.

Some people are okay with gray market stuff, others are not. Just don't pretend a company like Campag is indifferent. Because the gray market deals are harmful to their business.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

If Ribble/Wiggle are blowing Campag's price levels away chances are excellent there's very creative interpretations of any reseller agreements at work.

Are the prices *sometimes* a gray market deal that violates Campag's agreements? Probably.
Can Campag control it? No.

Dammit, I am trying to explain this to you guys. What reseller agreements are you talking about? There can't be reseller agreements. They are illegal under Article 81. If Campy tried to enforce one, they'd get a letter from Brussels in the mail.

In the US, things are a bit different, thanks to the Leegin decision.

 

[blaxland]

Lets just hope that all you internet shoppers can fix/adjust all your components on the bike"cause these internet sites will be the end to most retail stores here in Australia"Sweet shifting...........

 

[Martin318is]

Lets just hope that all you internet shoppers can fix/adjust all your components on the bike"cause these internet sites will be the end to most retail stores here in Australia"Sweet shifting...........

A) Yes, I can. Thanks for asking

B) If that were remotely true, why is there a massive bike shop appearing on every street corner in Melbourne in the last 3 years? Its getting like that scene in the Simpons when they go to the mall and in between two Starbucks is a shop under construction with a sign saying "Coming soon, Starbucks"

The people being theoretically hurt in this are actually the large distributors like BikeSports. The shops are starting to bypass them and go international themselves.

 

[blaxland]

A) Yes, I can. Thanks for asking

B) If that were remotely true, why is there a massive bike shop appearing on every street corner in Melbourne in the last 3 years? Its getting like that scene in the Simpons when they go to the mall and in between two Starbucks is a shop under construction with a sign saying "Coming soon, Starbucks"

The people being theoretically hurt in this are actually the large distributors like BikeSports. The shops are starting to bypass them and go international themselves.

As someone who has worked in this industry in Australia on both a wholesale and retail areas,then this definantley happening....Most wholesalers as you say are suffering and im one of them....
Keep an eye on these new shops as they wont be their for long"

 

[dsut4392]

As someone who has worked in this industry in Australia on both a wholesale and retail areas,then this definantley happening....Most wholesalers as you say are suffering and im one of them....
Keep an eye on these new shops as they wont be their for long"

Wow, that's bold...admitting to being a wholesaler! "Industry troll" arguments aside...
I know it's not fair to tar you all with the same brush, but the wholesale model in Australia has brought the average consumer decades of price gouging and poor service. As a retailer (outdoor) I lost count of the number of times I couldn't sell a customer the product they wanted at any price, however long they waited because the wholesaler only brought in a fraction of that brand's product lines, or only imported 2 pairs for the whole country in size 6/size xxl and they were sold in January (next shipment due in November, but that model superseded by then). Exclusive regional agreements meant I couldn't get it from the international mfg, and the customer couldn't buy it mail order either, even though the local wholesaler had NEVER imported that product and certainly couldn't be arsed ordering in a one-off. If you didn't want the volume-seller models, tough luck.

The failure of virtually the lot of you to pass on the massive appreciation of the aussie dollar over the last 4 years is just the final nail in the coffin which any sympathy for wholesalers is buried in.

It was a reasonable model until the '90s; it was plain hard to source things internationally, air freight was extortionate, currencies were (generally) more stable, price comparison harder due to large differences in import tariffs, and we were all a bit more patient. But in today's world it's not an unreasonable expectation that consumers have access to everything available internationally, at comparable prices.

 

[Llewellyn]

Wow, that's bold...admitting to being a wholesaler! "Industry troll" arguments aside...
I know it's not fair to tar you all with the same brush, but the wholesale model in Australia has brought the average consumer decades of price gouging and poor service. As a retailer (outdoor) I lost count of the number of times I couldn't sell a customer the product they wanted at any price, however long they waited because the wholesaler only brought in a fraction of that brand's product lines, or only imported 2 pairs for the whole country in size 6/size xxl and they were sold in January (next shipment due in November, but that model superseded by then). Exclusive regional agreements meant I couldn't get it from the international mfg, and the customer couldn't buy it mail order either, even though the local wholesaler had NEVER imported that product and certainly couldn't be arsed ordering in a one-off. If you didn't want the volume-seller models, tough luck.

The failure of virtually the lot of you to pass on the massive appreciation of the aussie dollar over the last 4 years is just the final nail in the coffin which any sympathy for wholesalers is buried in.

It was a reasonable model until the '90s; it was plain hard to source things internationally, air freight was extortionate, currencies were (generally) more stable, price comparison harder due to large differences in import tariffs, and we were all a bit more patient. But in today's world it's not an unreasonable expectation that consumers have access to everything available internationally, at comparable prices.

What he said

At last the wholesalers / retailers are getting some payback from long-suffering customers. Sorry, no sympathy here either

 

[Martin318is]

As someone who has worked in this industry in Australia on both a wholesale and retail areas,then this definantley happening....Most wholesalers as you say are suffering and im one of them....
Keep an eye on these new shops as they wont be their for long"

Actually you are right, what I should have said is that the people being hurt are the small to medium wholesalers. The big ones have sufficient thruput and liquidity that they can drop prices to their shops and put other 'direct' shops out of business if they are willing to be properly nasty.

I know of several shop owners who periodically go OS and load up their own shipping containers with stock from asia etc and just bring it into the country themselves. Turns out that importing and dealing with duties etc isnt as hard as the average person on the street thought it was.

Agree with the comment about the AUD too - Harvey Norman have been doing a lot osf squealing lately about online sellers and in the end it appears tht they are just going to set up their own online store to compete.

 

[blaxland]

Wow, that's bold...admitting to being a wholesaler! "Industry troll" arguments aside...
I know it's not fair to tar you all with the same brush, but the wholesale model in Australia has brought the average consumer decades of price gouging and poor service. As a retailer (outdoor) I lost count of the number of times I couldn't sell a customer the product they wanted at any price, however long they waited because the wholesaler only brought in a fraction of that brand's product lines, or only imported 2 pairs for the whole country in size 6/size xxl and they were sold in January (next shipment due in November, but that model superseded by then). Exclusive regional agreements meant I couldn't get it from the international mfg, and the customer couldn't buy it mail order either, even though the local wholesaler had NEVER imported that product and certainly couldn't be arsed ordering in a one-off. If you didn't want the volume-seller models, tough luck.

The failure of virtually the lot of you to pass on the massive appreciation of the aussie dollar over the last 4 years is just the final nail in the coffin which any sympathy for wholesalers is buried in.

It was a reasonable model until the '90s; it was plain hard to source things internationally, air freight was extortionate, currencies were (generally) more stable, price comparison harder due to large differences in import tariffs, and we were all a bit more patient. But in today's world it's not an unreasonable expectation that consumers have access to everything available internationally, at comparable prices.

I agree(regaurding greedy wholesalers) to disagree...cause all this comes at what cost?Nowhere for the average Joe to take his bike to be repaired?or lots of do it yourself mechanics?

 

[dsut4392]

I agree(regaurding greedy wholesalers) to disagree...cause all this comes at what cost?Nowhere for the average Joe to take his bike to be repaired?or lots of do it yourself mechanics?

You're sounding like Gerry Harvey...despite the doom and gloom, my local bike shops seem to be doing just fine. There are 4 shops which sell high end bikes within 300m of each other in town, and it's not a big town. Two of them have new 4WDs sprayed in shop colours in the last few months, the owner of the third is driving an Audi All-road which is only a few years old. Regardless of the tax-dodge involved these are personal vehicle for the owners, not workhorse vehicles used for race support and transporting demo bikes (though a couple of the shops have those too). None of the suburban stores seem to have closed either.

The majority of people are still buying their bikes at their lbs, right across the price spectrum. I buy a lot of stuff online, and do all my own wrenching bar suspension fork & shock overhauls. Even so, I still spend a fair sum at a couple of local shops and am on first name terms (i.e. they say g'day if we meet on the street) with the owners of three and shop staff/wrenches of five.

 

[simo1733]

As someone who has worked in this industry in Australia on both a wholesale and retail areas,then this definantley happening....Most wholesalers as you say are suffering and im one of them....
Keep an eye on these new shops as they wont be their for long"

Ribble have been around for over a hundred years and they have done international mail order for at least the last 20.
How long do you think we should keep an eye on them for?

 

[Martin318is]

I agree(regaurding greedy wholesalers) to disagree...cause all this comes at what cost?Nowhere for the average Joe to take his bike to be repaired?or lots of do it yourself mechanics?

Several shops have recently been opened that ONLY do servicing. It appears that your fears are unnecessary

 

[Martin318is]

Ribble have been around for over a hundred years and they have done international mail order for at least the last 20.
How long do you think we should keep an eye on them for?

He is referring to my comment about new shops opening in cities, not the online ones. Implication being that they are opening into a possibly shrinking market and will collapse in a few years due to online trade.

Personally I think this partly true but not because of the online stores. Its because they are being opened by 'keen' cyclinsts and triathletes with almost all their existing savings and not being managed by real bike shop experts. (they hire great people but the overall managers are not necessarily that experienced in the bike trade)

 

[blaxland]

Ribble have been around for over a hundred years and they have done international mail order for at least the last 20.
How long do you think we should keep an eye on them for?

Not talking about Ribble i mean the home bike mechanics"

 

[2beeDammed]

I order here on Wednesday and it rocks up on Monday. I live in QLD Australia btw lol!

I noticed the same thing when I ordered from Wiggle a couple of weeks ago and it the parcels turn up here in Port Douglas a few days later, then I noticed the postage. The parcels were 'postage paid Australia' and had a return address if undeliverable in Brisbane or Sydney (can't remember ). So I would imagine they were dispatched from a warehouse in Australia, the parts are already here. The transaction happens online with a company in the UK but that seem to be it.This model appears to be a very fine line to me as far as G.S.T. implications go, but they are big enough and ugly enough to have done their research on the legality of it. Still imagine if you could buy a car direct from Japan and have it delivered GST free.

 

[Caruut]

Let's review.

Campag, like many manufacturers have different prices for different channels and countries. If you are a builder, you get one generally good price. If you are a retailer you get another, generally less good price.

If you buy from Campag, they will have specific terms and conditions for becoming a customer that helps them maintain price levels worldwide. What if you are a retailer a little short on cash, but have a stack of Campag bike kits in the corner? You can turn that into cash by completely violating the terms of your customer contract in a creative way and live to fight another day.

Is it illegal? Yes.
Is it gray/black market? Yes
Can Campag control it? No

If Ribble/Wiggle are blowing Campag's price levels away chances are excellent there's very creative interpretations of any reseller agreements at work.

Are the prices *sometimes* a gray market deal that violates Campag's agreements? Probably.
Can Campag control it? No.

Some people are okay with gray market stuff, others are not. Just don't pretend a company like Campag is indifferent. Because the gray market deals are harmful to their business.

Can you explain how you know that it's illegal?

Do you know exactly what Campag's agreements actually are?

Can you also explain how the idea that the same product should be at a different price in different places is justified? It is a restrictive trade practice, which is, I believe, illegal in the EU, where Campag, Ribble, Wiggle and I are all based.

 

[Caruut]

I noticed the same thing when I ordered from Wiggle a couple of weeks ago and it the parcels turn up here in Port Douglas a few days later, then I noticed the postage. The parcels were 'postage paid Australia' and had a return address if undeliverable in Brisbane or Sydney (can't remember ). So I would imagine they were dispatched from a warehouse in Australia, the parts are already here. The transaction happens online with a company in the UK but that seem to be it.This model appears to be a very fine line to me as far as G.S.T. implications go, but they are big enough and ugly enough to have done their research on the legality of it. Still imagine if you could buy a car direct from Japan and have it delivered GST free.

Or possibly, Wiggle do enough trade to Australia to make it worthwhile to ship a daily package to Aus, then split it up at an office there, and makes it much easier for returns.

 

[Notso Swift]

Yes
Strawberrynet and Yoox use the same distribution model

For what it is work PBK do not and their delivery times have gone through the floor as the mail sysyem has been over loaded

I was at an Australia Post function recently and they said deliveries for December 2010 alone were more than ALL of 1989
THe Letter deliveries were actually down 30% over the period, but parcels were through the roof

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I don't know about Wiggle, but I ordered from XXCycle on March 31 and the package was at my door in the Western US on April 5. Pretty impressive.

For 95% of stuff though, I shop at my LBS. In this case, the color of Sidis I wanted was not sold in the US because it was too awesome for the locals.

 

[Llewellyn]

Yes
I was at an Australia Post function recently and they said deliveries for December 2010 alone were more than ALL of 1989
THe Letter deliveries were actually down 30% over the period, but parcels were through the roof

Haha - amidst all the hand-wringing and whingeing from Gerry Harvey and other retailers about internet purchases, you cerainly haven't heard any complaints from Australia Post

 

[laziali]

Had some excellent customer service from Wiggle today FWIW. Bought a tyre online, it was defective. Ruined three tubes finding out. Long story short, sent Wiggle some photos to verify the defect, a few emails back and forth and they refunded the tyre cost plus gave me a credit for the busted tubes. This overcame a major online shopping barrier for me, which is the hassle and up-front cost of returning the defective item to the UK for inspection.

I generally buy online from Wiggle or sometimes Evans or Ribble. Some things I still buy from my LBS, like clothes where fit is important and stuff when I don't want to wait the 7-14 days delivery to Australia. Also use LBS for fixing my wrenching errors LBS is super busy every time I'm in there and showing no signs of dying.

 

[simo1733]

This seems like a hell of a lot of bike for the money.
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/wilier-303-xc-shimano-slx-2012/?pr=1027#
Willier XC303 Carbon hardtail,Shimano SLX,Fulcrum wheels,Ritchey finishing kit.$1728
Whats the catch?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

This seems like a hell of a lot of bike for the money.
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/wilier-303-xc-shimano-slx-2012/?pr=1027#
Willier XC303 Carbon hardtail,Shimano SLX,Fulcrum wheels,Ritchey finishing kit.$1728
Whats the catch?

First of all, it's no longer available.

Second, you break it, from JRA, you are SOL.

 

[simo1733]

First of all, it's no longer available.

Second, you break it, from JRA, you are SOL.

Not sure what your acronyms mean? The bike is still available in all sizes according to their website.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Not sure what your acronyms mean? The bike is still available in all sizes according to their website.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/wilier-303-xc-shimano-slx-2012/?pr=1027#

Just Riding Along...****e Out of Luck