how did the giro-tour suddenly become so feasible?

May 5, 2011
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Two out of three strongest GC riders seem to be Froome and Dumoulin, both who have just finished fighting for the giro. Is it just a severe lack of competition for GCs these days so that even though tired, they're still competitive? or is it something new and clinic related? Genuinely wondering cause I'm old enough to remember years of failed attempts at the almost "impossible" double. I Thought the ACs two attempts were the closest anyone would ever get to redoing Pantani. Guess I'm wrong.

Then again... both might fade badly third week :p :eek:
 
A week extra which is used as pure rest does wonders. Plus there's still a week to go, so they might still collapse.

Also, I don't think the double works well for riders like Contador and Quintana, explosive climber types (although Contador could also TT ofcourse) with not much 'body'. Froome and Dumoulin have gigantic engines (enlarged with help very probable)
 
Jun 27, 2013
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Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
A week extra which is used as pure rest does wonders.
Yep. Start and end of the answer.

1 extra week inbetween because of the World Cup. Just like there was until the mid 90s, when it was also doable. And in 1998 there was also an extra week because of the World Cup....guess what happened
 
I dont know about Tom but froome is at this stage basically in contention for greatest gt rider ever. How many managed giro tour? Indurain did it. Merckx did it no? Hinault can't remember.

Armstrong never tried.

Contador 2011 had a far Weaker team than sky and wasn't that far off, especially if he hadn't been disadvantaged by crashes it might have worked. 2015 contador was a far Weaker rider imo.

So week or no week, with froome it's a case of best guy being able to do both.
 
It only works If the rider had already won 2 GTs prior to it and had an AAF pending to the last day of starting Le Tour :D


but then ask yourselves: What if the Magic Kenyan goes for the Triple? :eek: :D :D
 
Sep 21, 2013
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The Hitch said:
I dont know about Tom but froome is at this stage basically in contention for greatest gt rider ever. How many managed giro tour? Indurain did it. Merckx did it no? Hinault can't remember.

Armstrong never tried.

Contador 2011 had a far Weaker team than sky and wasn't that far off, especially if he hadn't been disadvantaged by crashes it might have worked. 2015 contador was a far Weaker rider imo.

So week or no week, with froome it's a case of best guy being able to do both.
Giro/LeTour double: Hinault in ‘82 amd ‘85. Merckx ‘70, ‘72 and ‘74.

Merckx won the Vuelta in ‘73. If Froome wins this Tour and then the Vuelta does he eclipse Merckx as the greatest GT racer of all time?
 
Nighttrain99 said:
The Hitch said:
I dont know about Tom but froome is at this stage basically in contention for greatest gt rider ever. How many managed giro tour? Indurain did it. Merckx did it no? Hinault can't remember.

Armstrong never tried.

Contador 2011 had a far Weaker team than sky and wasn't that far off, especially if he hadn't been disadvantaged by crashes it might have worked. 2015 contador was a far Weaker rider imo.

So week or no week, with froome it's a case of best guy being able to do both.
Giro/LeTour double: Hinault in ‘82 amd ‘85. Merckx ‘70, ‘72 and ‘74.

Merckx won the Vuelta in ‘73. If Froome wins this Tour and then the Vuelta does he eclipse Merckx as the greatest GT racer of all time
?
No because Merckx dominated the races he was in, won the other classifications, and way more stages. Yes, different times but what if the Vuelta was in August instead of April during Merckx's time.
 
Aug 2, 2012
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OP question is impossible to answer.....no-one has yet answered the opening question 'how the f*** did da dwag

ever win a GT?'

Mark L
 
Nighttrain99 said:
The Hitch said:
I dont know about Tom but froome is at this stage basically in contention for greatest gt rider ever. How many managed giro tour? Indurain did it. Merckx did it no? Hinault can't remember.

Armstrong never tried.

Contador 2011 had a far Weaker team than sky and wasn't that far off, especially if he hadn't been disadvantaged by crashes it might have worked. 2015 contador was a far Weaker rider imo.

So week or no week, with froome it's a case of best guy being able to do both.
Giro/LeTour double: Hinault in ‘82 amd ‘85. Merckx ‘70, ‘72 and ‘74.

Merckx won the Vuelta in ‘73. If Froome wins this Tour and then the Vuelta does he eclipse Merckx as the greatest GT racer of all time?
Roche in 87
 
I don't think it was impossible at any point. eventually, the possibility of pulling off the giro-tour double in totally up to having a rider(s) of exceptional quality and a bit of luck. luckily, currently we have two, who stand out. AC met 1st requirement, but didn't have luck in 2011. I wouldn't add Bertie's 2015 and Nairo's 2017 runs to that list, because at that point they didn't have any class superiority over others.
 
Jan 15, 2013
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It's an interesting one... nobody really bothered in the 00's at all. Between 1997 and 2007, every Giro winner was Italian - call it relative interest, doping logistics, publicity, camera bike drafting, whatever, but that's a crazy home advantage. Similar in the Vuelta, with only Ullrich in 1999 breaking what would have been an all-Spanish run from 1998 to 2005.

I think Contador would have been a lot closer in 2011 if it wasn't for those heavy crashes, and the backloading of the route didn't help him at all. In contrast, this year's race is frontloaded compared to normal Tours, with the Alps in week 2, and what's a fairly tame Pyrenees in week 3, with two downhill finishes allowing dropped riders to get back on and a sprint stage sandwiched in as a de facto rest day.

To manage the double, you need to be in your 'imperial phase' as a GC rider, where not only you're in great shape, but luck just seems to go your way (Richie Porte will never have an imperial phase). It also helps to be the patron of the peloton, who riders will think twice about attacking if you have a mechanical. Armstrong could have done it in the early 00's had he wanted. And maybe Froome can now.
 
and it definetely hinders when your teammate all of a sudden produces the level one could hardly predict while your closest opponent overall exceeds all expectations too. :)

in point of fact, thomas is appearing as a wild joker as landa in 2015 giro or dimoulin himself in the 2015 vuelta and 2017 giro previously did, that notably hampers the double chance
 
The strangest thing to me is that the Giro was very hard, and both Froome and Dumoulin had to fight to the end. In this Tour, many heavier riders have complained the second week was relentless - with the sprinter's field being decimated. So how can the above duo look as fresh as the riders that have trained specifically for this GT only? They may still crash and burn, but I see no indication for it at this moment.
 
Re:

Jagartrott said:
The strangest thing to me is that the Giro was very hard, and both Froome and Dumoulin had to fight to the end. In this Tour, many heavier riders have complained the second week was relentless - with the sprinter's field being decimated. So how can the above duo look as fresh as the riders that have trained specifically for this GT only? They may still crash and burn, but I see no indication for it at this moment.
I don’t think there’s any easy answer. Even with doping taken into account it should only really push a might have won to a winner, especially if we go on the dogmatic view that they are all at it.

Easiest explanation, in a race where double digit climbs are hard to find and low when they appear, the race favours GC riders who can grind it out at close to threshold day after day and CF and TD are currently the best in the world by a big margin at this.
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
Jagartrott said:
The strangest thing to me is that the Giro was very hard, and both Froome and Dumoulin had to fight to the end. In this Tour, many heavier riders have complained the second week was relentless - with the sprinter's field being decimated. So how can the above duo look as fresh as the riders that have trained specifically for this GT only? They may still crash and burn, but I see no indication for it at this moment.
I don’t think there’s any easy answer. Even with doping taken into account it should only really push a might have won to a winner, especially if we go on the dogmatic view that they are all at it.

Easiest explanation, in a race where double digit climbs are hard to find and low when they appear, the race favours GC riders who can grind it out at close to threshold day after day and CF and TD are currently the best in the world by a big margin at this.
Why would recovery favour bigger riders now?

And who's a reference anyway. Almost nobody in this Tour is at their usual level. Bardet probably. Few are out. Quintana once again messed up his form. Valverde is ancient and out of shape. Landa, Uran, and many others crashed.

I'd say Froome and Bardet are about the same level as last year. Now why would Froome reach the same level after a Giro, while a year older? Why would Dumoulin, who was slowly fading toward the end of the Giro last year now be able to be consistent for a Giro/Tour double?

I think the extra week makes a lot of difference.

Right now I'm also kind of wondering what happened to the riders who were good early season. Right now of those riders only Roglic is riding well. Froome, Dumoulin and Thomas were nowhere in the spring.
 
I'm with Jaguartrott - Riders in the peleton were saying the 2018 Giro was their hardest experience in that race, and even harder than the 2015 Giro which is recognised as one of the toughest GT's in recent times - I'd be surprised if Dumoulin and Froome don't fade in week three.
 
Dumoulin and Froome have another thing going for them. They both seem to master the trick of riding just under their limit uphill. Often seemingly in trouble/dropping, then attacking or coming back when the others tire out.

Froome might use the power meter for that. Dumoulin says he doesn't even have the power meters on screen during the race, he always naturally rode this way. Because riding at the limit or over makes you blow up. There aren't many riders who have that sense of pacing. But it saves energy, especially in GT's.
 

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