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thehog said:
+1000
As you wrote in another thread-a 500K donation would certainly have made the UCI looked the case with a different set of eyes....
this_is_edie said:
thanks a lot- indeed they're some mistranslation, but to be fare, he's only expressing support to a close friend, perhaps acknowledging some wrong doing on his behalf, but definitely in anger of the lack of decision making & the length on his case.
I actually found very interesting what Pedro Delgado commented on this case:
http://www.as.com/ciclismo/articulo/perico-valverde-querian-cargar/dasclm/20100602dasdascic_1/Tes
P.S. I think Susan only allows links-not quotes...?
hfer07 said:
you can quote part of it but not the whole thing. So what is Delgado's comments was interesting to you?
Armchair cyclist
Moderator
Colm.Murphy said:
Not really a comment on the sport as art, just a lazy translation. "Practicar" would be better translated as "to take part in" rather than assuming that the cognate "to practice" was apt.
We should be allowed to dope and shame on you for not letting us dope. In fact, if you catch us doping, it is you that is killing the sport, and it is you that should be ashamed of yourself.
This attitude is so f***ed up, that if it is the norm, then shut down the clinic.
This attitude is so f***ed up, that if it is the norm, then shut down the clinic.
The Hog and hef07 were the most astute in their replies. One must blame the translator, not the writer if not understood in the original. Ivan has always been an intermediary with the 'powers that be' so it does give a right to speak, and is one of the most respected and far from illiterate of the peloton, yet also always out spoken! I respect and applaud his publishing this letter. Frustration and common sense come through. You, nor I are a Pro cyclist, take a moment to think on 6 years of innuendo, threats from legally flippant 'authorities' and complete lack of fair and speedy? I do not claim that Ale is innocent, but HE IS THE SCAPEGOAT! I cry shenanigans and long for fairness--THAT is what Ivan is expressing. (Also, it was Jose Enrique Gutierrez on the tape seen going into the offices.--opinions are fine, but if one wishes to state them out loud--be prepared, don't besmirch another who lives a life successfully that oneself is unable.) I say well done--FORWARD!
luckyboy said:
And what of it? Does the peloton not have the right to conduct their affairs as they see fit? Would you rather have it dictated by the sponsors and promoters who seek to profit financially off the bodies of the athletes?
Some will say that we must break the doping cycle because even if the current peloton is ok with doping, new cyclists can't get in without doping themselves. So what? Does one have a right to be a pro cyclist in the current peloton? Don't be silly. He is always free to start up his own racing series. If he instead choses to take part in the sport created by his predecessors and made into something profitable by the current and past riders, then he simply has to conform to their culture. Otherwise, do his own thing and build up his own business.
OK, maybe I'm being extreme here. But who are the athletes actually hurting besides themselves by "doping"? If the answer is only those who have naive dreams and hero worship, or those that use these cyclists to make money, then that doesn't bother me one bit. As for hurting themselves, this should always be personal choice. Modern "doping" has been shown to be pretty safe anyway: safer than training on the roadways around cars or flying down mountains at 60kph.
stephens said:
Doping is a form of fraud. If you steal money from a person, you're obviously hurting someone other than yourself. If you win a major bike race, thanks to a doping program, the award money is yours - and someone else loses out. Doped bikers win big money sponsorships and non-dopers can barely get by. Can you see this?
This is one reason why some countries have proceeded to criminalize doping. Pro sports is one of the only remaining businesses where it is legal to cheat and get away with it. Even Valverde got to keep all his winnings when he got his 2-year ban. It's not far from robbing a bank, getting caught, and the penalty is just that you may not rob another bank for 2 years. Oh, by the way, you can keep the money you took from the bank.
Until this gets changed and financial penalties are imposed, the temptation to dope is just too great.
stephens said:
Nope, If you want to be a Professional you have to follow the WADA code. If you are a citizen of almost any country the use and distribution of PED is illegal.
I wasn't speaking as a cop. I was speaking as a fan of pro cycling and as a human being. (i.e. not legal rights, but moral rights).
As far as I'm concerned, this group of men ought to have the right to determine their own future. They are the ones with the talent and who put in the hard work. So pro cycling should be what they, and only they, say it should be. And if that means they don't mind "preparations," then that is a-ok with me.
It is not a sort of "fraud" against other cyclists because none of them expect each other to be clean and none of them feel cheated when one of their brothers beats them - except maybe in extreme cases where someone goes over the line they have drawn. The "rules" have been forced upon them by outside forces, the "suits" that just want to make money off of them and exploit them. If the cyclists agree to ignore those rules, then that's fine with me. It may be "fraud" against businessmen, or gamblers and the like, but I don't really care about them.
Someone out there has decided that a guy can't even take his own blood out and put it back in to his body when he wants. Surely that should be no one's business!
As far as I'm concerned, this group of men ought to have the right to determine their own future. They are the ones with the talent and who put in the hard work. So pro cycling should be what they, and only they, say it should be. And if that means they don't mind "preparations," then that is a-ok with me.
It is not a sort of "fraud" against other cyclists because none of them expect each other to be clean and none of them feel cheated when one of their brothers beats them - except maybe in extreme cases where someone goes over the line they have drawn. The "rules" have been forced upon them by outside forces, the "suits" that just want to make money off of them and exploit them. If the cyclists agree to ignore those rules, then that's fine with me. It may be "fraud" against businessmen, or gamblers and the like, but I don't really care about them.
Someone out there has decided that a guy can't even take his own blood out and put it back in to his body when he wants. Surely that should be no one's business!
stephens said:
It is not a level playing field today. More money buys you a better doping program. Lance can afford to fly his blood bags to France in a private plane. And buy himself out of trouble with a well-targeted donation. Entry level pro riders are left to do just the cheap stuff - and often suffer the consequences of amateurish dope program which can result in a positive test.
Doping brings with it a culture of corruption. Pro riders have to live their lives through a lie - they lie to their sponsors, their supporters, their families. You may like that, but most riders, even those who dope, would love to see a new level playing field where they don't need to take drugs - and be assured that no one has that special advantage.
Tubeless said:
The lie and corruption doesn't come from the actions of the riders: it comes from the actions of the organizers and profiteers who declared certain practices against the rules and pretend to enforce those rules. If legal, there would be no lie.
As for the level playing field, any rider who does not like the current status quo is welcome to start his own racing series and do things as he sees fit. But one shouldn't jump into the existing scene, attempt to profit from its long established history, much of which is clearly established in conflict with the official "rules" of the sport, and yet complain about how that peloton is operating or how they built up the sport to where it is today.
stephens said:
It isn't anyone's business, unless that individual makes the decision to enter pro cycling, where that particular practice is prohibited. Nobody is forcing the guy to go pro. But once you enter, you should play by the rules of the game.
stephens said:
Can we agree on something? That the sponsors and (the vast majority of) the fans expect the riders to be clean.
If you accept that much, then the question remains whose fault it is that riders cheat? You seem to finger the race organizers & governing bodies? It surely did not start there. These two are caught in the dilemma of rooting out the doping disease without killing the entire sport at the same time. But the riders, if asked 1:1, would surely love to see a solution where doping is no longer necessary to compete. Doping is not good for your health. It is expensive. You can get caught and your life may be ruined. You may have to pay fines or even be slapped with a criminal record.
The riders are mostly protesting the seemingly unjust way how some get caught and others keep riding. This is how Landis feels. And the just of the letter from Ivan Gutierrez. It is their way of saying that it is not a level playing field and want something to be done about it. Legalize doping would be your solution?
Moose McKnuckles said:
Sure. But what we are discussing here is whose rules? That "particular practice" doesn't seem to be prohibited by the riders themselves. It is only the suits that deem it so. I'm suggesting that it'd be best to let the riders run their own show.
Tubeless said:
I think the vast majority of fans expect the riders to ride in such a manner that is, frankly, impossible if clean. But my whole point is that it shouldn't really matter what the fans and the sponsors want. They can vote with their money elsewhere if they choose, of course.
Tubeless said:
It's possibly not good for one's health, but is demonstrably more so than all the other things we expect the athletes to do? As for the other things, those are results of it being illegal, not the result of the doping itself.
Actually my solution would be to ask the riders to figure it out. But no one seems to give a crap what they really want. If they want to get rid of doping, then they will. The suits will never win so they might as well stop the circus. The riders should be able to make the rules of their sport and how they are enforced: how much testing, when, how, what is on the banned list, etc. (there will be conflicts with local laws of course... but theoretically, tihs is what should take place.)
Reverend_T_Preedy said:
True, now if we can get the cyclingnews haters to face the fact....
Guitierrez needs to go rest with Valverde
There are so many logical fallacies in your comments that I don't know if you're actually being serious or joking. Regardless, a couple of things:
-a lot of riders don't actually want to dope. Many are doing it because think everyone else is, so there's simply no other choice.
-very, very few riders have any idea about the dangerous health aspects of doping. Of course, neither do a lot of the doctors. Hint: EPO is more dangerous than orange juice. The riders are acting as human guinea pigs, and the people profiting are the doctors. Do you have any idea of the long-term affects of therapeutic EPO use in individuals with healthy immune systems? Of course you don't, because no one knows. Of course, when some retired riders start getting red cell aplasia in their early 40's, we'll know a little more. Same goes for long-term manipulations of hormones.
I'm sorry, but the average professional bike racer simply isn't equipped to decide what medications are and are not safe. Sometimes you have to rely on some "suits".
-just because bike racing is dangerous, it doesn't mean it's OK to throw on some more unnecessary risk
-just because the sport has a legacy of doping, it doesn't mean that I don't have the right to clean and fair competition. Suggesting I go 'start my own race series' is ridiculous.
-it is my business if another rider is engaged in a banned, potentially dangerous process which gives him a competitive advantage over me. It's also my business if he chooses to get into a car and drive to the top of the climbs.
-not everyone is doing it, so the playing field is, indeed, not level
What I want is pretty simple. I want my peers to follows the rules to which they agreed, and which I choose to follow.
-a lot of riders don't actually want to dope. Many are doing it because think everyone else is, so there's simply no other choice.
-very, very few riders have any idea about the dangerous health aspects of doping. Of course, neither do a lot of the doctors. Hint: EPO is more dangerous than orange juice. The riders are acting as human guinea pigs, and the people profiting are the doctors. Do you have any idea of the long-term affects of therapeutic EPO use in individuals with healthy immune systems? Of course you don't, because no one knows. Of course, when some retired riders start getting red cell aplasia in their early 40's, we'll know a little more. Same goes for long-term manipulations of hormones.
I'm sorry, but the average professional bike racer simply isn't equipped to decide what medications are and are not safe. Sometimes you have to rely on some "suits".
-just because bike racing is dangerous, it doesn't mean it's OK to throw on some more unnecessary risk
-just because the sport has a legacy of doping, it doesn't mean that I don't have the right to clean and fair competition. Suggesting I go 'start my own race series' is ridiculous.
-it is my business if another rider is engaged in a banned, potentially dangerous process which gives him a competitive advantage over me. It's also my business if he chooses to get into a car and drive to the top of the climbs.
-not everyone is doing it, so the playing field is, indeed, not level
What I want is pretty simple. I want my peers to follows the rules to which they agreed, and which I choose to follow.
@ stephens
I am struggling to see any logic in the crux of your argument that, the riders are essentially being forced to dope by the corrupt nature of the organisers, while simultaneously choosing to dope based upon their own convictions and free will.
All I see from your argument is a hodgepodge of poorly thought out rhetoric about the wrongness of forcing someone to do something willingly.
Do you actually fail to see that what you are suggesting has taken place is in fact an impossibility?
I am struggling to see any logic in the crux of your argument that, the riders are essentially being forced to dope by the corrupt nature of the organisers, while simultaneously choosing to dope based upon their own convictions and free will.
All I see from your argument is a hodgepodge of poorly thought out rhetoric about the wrongness of forcing someone to do something willingly.
Do you actually fail to see that what you are suggesting has taken place is in fact an impossibility?
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