How dirty is SaxoBank-Tinkoff?

[del1962]

Is Riis any worse than Matt White at Greenedge?

 

[Lanark]

Is Riis any worse than Matt White at Greenedge?

Riis has been implicated by several riders of having condoned (openly discussing it with riders), or even encouraged doping by referring riders to Fuentes. IIRC Jaksche even said he provided insulin on one ocasion.

Are there any similair accusations against White? (genuine question, I don't know).

 

[del1962]

Riis has been implicated by several riders of having condoned (openly discussing it with riders), or even encouraged doping by referring riders to Fuentes. IIRC Jaksche even said he provided insulin on one ocasion.

Are there any similair accusations against White? (genuine question, I don't know).

I thought there was a suspect incident at Garmin with White sending a rider to a dodgy doctor.

 

[Netserk]

Stinks of a small blood bag already.

The one pre-Tour most do or an additional? The TTT result was as expected, so I doubt they took something extra for that.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

I thought there was a suspect incident at Garmin with White sending a rider to a dodgy doctor.

If the sport manages to clean out (up) the top (UCI and team owners), Matt White would eventually be booted out.

As it currently stands, I dare say they all belong in the circus.

 

[Samson777]

Riis always seem to have shut his eyes at everything dope, but he still did not care or did anything to stop it. Which might be slightly better than starting organised dope programs on your team himself, like a lot of others did, but he is still a part of the problem and seem still unwilling to be fully transparent about his past.

I think they are clean-ish now. Even Bertie. Maybe.

According to Jaksche it was quite organized: http://sporten.tv2.dk/tour/2013-07-03-toprytter-står-frem-jeg-har-vidnet-mod-riis

Jaksche tells that they could go to the team doctors for treatment. And that they could ask the team doctors which days they could take EPO without getting busted. And that they= the riders was given help so that they could dope. And Jaksche also discussed his doping program with Riis several times. So maybe Riis did a little more than to shut his eyes.

 

[meat puppet]

According to Jaksche it was quite organized: http://sporten.tv2.dk/tour/2013-07-03-toprytter-står-frem-jeg-har-vidnet-mod-riis

Jaksche tells that they could go to the team doctors for treatment. And that they could ask the team doctors which days they could take EPO without getting busted. And that they= the riders was given help so that they could dope. And Jaksche also discussed his doping program with Riis several times. So maybe Riis did a little more than to shut his eyes.

having riis in an active role seems quite consistent with tyler's depiction of things, too.

 

[del1962]

Riis has been implicated by several riders of having condoned (openly discussing it with riders), or even encouraged doping by referring riders to Fuentes. IIRC Jaksche even said he provided insulin on one ocasion.

Are there any similair accusations against White? (genuine question, I don't know).

Thinking about it, he was probably not as bad as Riis was, but he is still their smiling face on TV cockahoop at Greenedge's yellow.

 

[pmcg76]

Thinking about it, he was probably not as bad as Riis was, but he is still their smiling face on TV cockahoop at Greenedge's yellow.

And look at two of SKYs DS, Kurt-Asle Arvesen and Marcus Ljungqvist, 6 years and 4 years respectively with Riis teams or how about Servais Knaven, member of TVM when they were booted from the Tour in 98. Glass houses and all.

 

[Le Baroudeur]

According to Jaksche it was quite organized: http://sporten.tv2.dk/tour/2013-07-03-toprytter-står-frem-jeg-har-vidnet-mod-riis

Jaksche tells that they could go to the team doctors for treatment. And that they could ask the team doctors which days they could take EPO without getting busted. And that they= the riders was given help so that they could dope. And Jaksche also discussed his doping program with Riis several times. So maybe Riis did a little more than to shut his eyes.

Awesome, yet another Jaksche version of events to add to my ever growing collection.

 

[del1962]

And look at two of SKYs DS, Kurt-Asle Arvesen and Marcus Ljungqvist, 6 years and 4 years respectively with Riis teams or how about Servais Knaven, member of TVM when they were booted from the Tour in 98. Glass houses and all.

Well if any evidence comes out, then instant sacking, as they signed the paper.

 

[BroDeal]

Anyone have confidence in this team?

I do.

Six seconds cleaner than Sky. Eight seconds dirtier than Garmin. The team is following the middle road.

 

[Big Doopie]

Mmmmm...not really going to argue that our friend is likely going to show some amazing and unbelievable improvement in form (as will Schleck).

Agreed 100% and dreading it. He went "balls to the wall" in the dauphine itt. You could see how much he was trying - no matter the lies that consistently spew from his mouth when he is low on dope.

The sudden improvement only weeks apart is something made "normal" only with the arrival of blood vector doping.

Spanish. Is there a national or ethnic issue with time trailing?

Not necessarily. But name me one little Spanish climber who didn't lose gobs of minutes pre-blood vector doping. Only Ocana came close and he was always a phenomenal all-rounder - not a tiny little climber.

The thing about blood vector doping is that it makes fat guys climb and also little climbers tt. How do you think pantani finished third in the flat long tt at the end of 1998?

Same with Clentadopucci. His ability to tt is directly related to his ability to dope. One of the main reasons that if there was no blood vector doping Clentadopucci would never have won a single tour. He would have been a Fuente at best but more likely the equivalent of a clean Chiappucci - in other words barely a footnote in the annals of cycling. So when people here glorify him and his "talent" I freaking laugh MAO. What a fraud he has perpetuated on that cycling fan.

Saez... Bruyneel... Riis...

Del moral... Plasterizer... Puerto...Clen...

Unrepentant doper.

Not a single one of his results can he claim was clean. Not one.

Need I say more?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Haha Big Doopie. I agree Alberto is a doper. Duh. But so is everyone else.

Tell me Big Doopie which of the current riders would also be at the top in a clean cycling world?

PS I don't like racism so stop with the spaniard ****.

 

[del1962]

Haha Big Doopie. I agree Alberto is a doper. Duh. But so is everyone else.

Tell me Big Doopie which of the current riders would also be at the top in a clean cycling world?

PS I don't like racism so stop with the spaniard ****.

I hate the attitude that becaause others are doping it is somehow justified.

Also we don't know that others are doping that is just your beleifs.

We do know that it is highly likely that Alberto doped in the past (whether currently I have no idea - I hope not), but to somehow justify it by accusing other riders of doping (whetether they are or not ) with no evidence is not a great attitude.

 

[FrankChickens]

...
Same with Clentadopucci. His ability to tt is directly related to his ability to dope. One of the main reasons that if there was no blood vector doping Clentadopucci would never have won a single tour. He would have been a Fuente at best but more likely the equivalent of a clean Chiappucci - in other words barely a footnote in the annals of cycling.

This seems a little harsh in my opinion. Clentador has been smashing time trials since he was a junior and some of his earliest palmares are from ITTs. Admittedly his first team - as a junior out of school - was run by Saiz, so take from that what you will, but hard to imagine he was on a major program from day dot.

 

[zastomito]

You can't justify something that is unjustifiable. But saying that Contador is somehow much worse than all the other dopers is kinda silly. As far as I know (Ulrich and Pantani thread) you can't judge how talented rider was/is when he is doping. Too many variables. That seems to present no problem for Big Doopie however.

 

[Ferminal]

Isn't doping justified by the desire to have a highly successful career?

 

[Carstenbf]

Same with Clentadopucci. His ability to tt is directly related to his ability to dope. One of the main reasons that if there was no blood vector doping Clentadopucci would never have won a single tour. He would have been a Fuente at best but more likely the equivalent of a clean Chiappucci - in other words barely a footnote in the annals of cycling.

Nice baiting there mister.

 

[LaFlorecita]

You can't justify something that is unjustifiable. But saying that Contador is somehow much worse than all the other dopers is kinda silly. As far as I know (Ulrich and Pantani thread) you can't judge how talented rider was/is when he is doping. Too many variables. That seems to present no problem for Big Doopie however.

This basically. I'm not going to bother replying to del1962

 

[zastomito]

Isn't doping justified by the desire to have a highly successful career?

No.

10 characters

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Isn't doping justified by the desire to have a highly successful career?

perhaps justification is not quite the right word, but one would have been stupid not to dope in the last 25 years (with a desire to continue with the pro career).

Except for a few cases the top end dopers are doing very well these days.

Hincapie, Contador, Leihpeimer, Millar, Riis, Bugno, Basso, Virenque etc.

Does it still pay to dope? Thats the question. I think it does.

 

[zastomito]

perhaps justification is not quite the right word, but one would have been stupid not to dope in the last 25 years (with a desire to continue with the pro career).

Except for a few cases the top end dopers are doing very well these days.

Hincapie, Contador, Leihpeimer, Millar, Riis, Bugno, Basso, Virenque etc.

Does it still pay to dope? Thats the question. I think it does.

If you look at it that way justification is the exact word. And it is not justifiable in any way. The only way I see for them to be able to justify doping is if they have no conscience, end justifies the means kind of understanding of competition and life.

 

[darwin553]

Isn't doping justified by the desire to have a highly successful career?

What happened to working hard in training and practice to derive the success you speak of?

 

[Ferminal]

You have to believe you are committing a "wrong" in the first place for it to affect your conscience. Many believe they are doing something normal. In any case, there can't be many people who assign an infinite value to conscience (and norms, rules, altruism etc) so as to completely dominate their decision making. It doesn't help when doping is not condemned by their peers.