How dodgy is San Millán

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Is San Millán dodgy?

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Aug 24, 2012
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131313 said:
This guy is not "dodgy". He's one of the good guys in the sport. The fact is, if you're involved in cycling, you're going to be *associated* with athletes who are "dodgy". So, saying "he worked with XXXX" because he happened to be employed by a team that also employed XXXX, then assuming that he had something to do with that rider's doping? That's both silly and way off base.

This is as ridiculous as claiming someone is doping based on where they live.
Yep. Well said. Couldn't agree more. This man has a right to earn a living. He is definitely not guilty in any way. It's not his fault that some of the athletes that he has worked with are weak minded cheaters. JV also hit the nail on the head with his post. Attempting to scrape up dirt where none exists about one of the good guys, is bang out of order.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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131313 said:
This guy is not "dodgy". He's one of the good guys in the sport. The fact is, if you're involved in cycling, you're going to be *associated* with athletes who are "dodgy". So, saying "he worked with XXXX" because he happened to be employed by a team that also employed XXXX, then assuming that he had something to do with that rider's doping? That's both silly and way off base.

This is as ridiculous as claiming someone is doping based on where they live.
labeling someone as dodgy or shady doesn't equal claiming he's doping. I'm not claiming anybody is doping. that would be ridiculous in the absence of any evidence. the label 'dodgy' is reserved for situations where evidence is absent and you have to trust on your instinct. no facts, no claims, no empiry, no evidence, just gutfeeling. a matter of taste as i said before
 
The problem is, as noted in the post of mine from another thread that was pulled into here, that history will always be mixed, and as many of us are posting from the outside but as jaded followers of the sport, it's far too easy to 'join the dots'.

San Millán could well be one of the good guys, as JV states he is. Garmin are obviously keen on the sports science side of things and so is he, although I really found the "Anglophone riders are receptive to this stuff. Euros aren't" quotes to be a bit oversimplistic and possibly a touch insulting. However, his team history provides dots that can be joined, even if those who are more in the know than us can vouch that those dots shouldn't be joined.

We must forgive those on the inside their annoyance at seeing clean guys (on all sides of the sport, riders, DSes, docs, team managers, mechanics etc) getting side-swiped by discussion like this (after all, as previously noted, while clean riders may be increasingly easy to find, getting hold of docs, DSes etc with the right level of experience and no history could be difficult due to so many of them working during the EPO era, as even noted clean guys have jots to join - the thread about Moncoutié was derailed almost from the word go because somebody saw a Cofidis jersey and didn't recognise Moncoutié, and likewise Bassons rode for Festina - both teams that have been embroiled in scandal), but in return those on the inside should forgive us our skepticism even if they don't like the (often too inelegant) way it's expressed.

After all, in a sport with a history of cheating such as cycling has, perhaps in calmer moments JV can look at our more aggro moments in the Clinic and see it as a compliment when he or his guys are mentioned. After all, Garmin are a purportedly clean team, the only REAL dots to join pertain to riders' histories before they came TO the team, and if they're doing well enough that people can't believe they're doing it clean, then it's surely validation of those guys' talent and JV's ability to spot them.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Morpheus said:
Yep. Well said. Couldn't agree more. This man has a right to earn a living. He is definitely not guilty in any way. It's not his fault that some of the athletes that he has worked with are weak minded cheaters. JV also hit the nail on the head with his post. Attempting to scrape up dirt where none exists about one of the good guys, is bang out of order.
Me and some others we've raised a couple of issues earlier in this thread.
It's a bit lame to come with a post like this without even remotely attempting to address any of those issues.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Morpheus said:
Labeling some one dodgy or shady who clearly is not is potentially libelous.
more lameness.

to your previous post:
This man has a right to earn a living. He is definitely not guilty in any way.
I never said anything to the contrary.
 
May 26, 2010
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Morpheus said:
Labeling some one dodgy or shady who clearly is not is potentially libelous.
JV has admitted he is culpable of doing this and did it with Tondo who he did not sign becasue he joined the dots and did not like what he saw.

He then comes in here and abuses someone with a dsimissal that teamClean are that. Again no evidence. I still doubt Wiggins 4th was clean and his since Sky performances are clean.

This is pro cyclign we are talking about. IsM worked on some very dirty teams.

I would like to think there are good guys out there, but i suspect they are of the Bassons mould, out of the sport and working in their local communities with the young encouraging them not to take the dark road to success.
 
You guys are blowing this out of proportion. We've had a thread questioning freakin' Moncoutié, where most of us came and made elaborated posts about why we believed he has always been clean. Most of us know next to nothing about San Millán, so you could simply, you know, share your info. Say "No, I don't think he's dodgy, and here's why", and then explain and educate us.
 
May 26, 2010
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hrotha said:
You guys are blowing this out of proportion. We've had a thread questioning freakin' Moncoutié, where most of us came and made elaborated posts about why we believed he has always been clean. Most of us know next to nothing about San Millán, so you could simply, you know, share your info. Say "No, I don't think he's dodgy, and here's why", and then explain and educate us.
You know it has been a long time since Kimmage was with Garmin on the TdF. JV has been living of that for a while now. We now know that most of the doping is done during training. Why dont Garmin get Kimmage or similar journalist out to their most important training camp.

Then they they can report on the work of IsM and how riders train nowadays.

I think Sniper has done a good job of listing where IsM has worked. Dont mean he doped riders. But it does look 'dodgy' on your CV in the world of pro cycling.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
The problem is, as noted in the post of mine from another thread that was pulled into here, that history will always be mixed, and as many of us are posting from the outside but as jaded followers of the sport, it's far too easy to 'join the dots'.

San Millán could well be one of the good guys, as JV states he is. Garmin are obviously keen on the sports science side of things and so is he, although I really found the "Anglophone riders are receptive to this stuff. Euros aren't" quotes to be a bit oversimplistic and possibly a touch insulting. However, his team history provides dots that can be joined, even if those who are more in the know than us can vouch that those dots shouldn't be joined.

We must forgive those on the inside their annoyance at seeing clean guys (on all sides of the sport, riders, DSes, docs, team managers, mechanics etc) getting side-swiped by discussion like this (after all, as previously noted, while clean riders may be increasingly easy to find, getting hold of docs, DSes etc with the right level of experience and no history could be difficult due to so many of them working during the EPO era, as even noted clean guys have jots to join - the thread about Moncoutié was derailed almost from the word go because somebody saw a Cofidis jersey and didn't recognise Moncoutié, and likewise Bassons rode for Festina - both teams that have been embroiled in scandal), but in return those on the inside should forgive us our skepticism even if they don't like the (often too inelegant) way it's expressed.

After all, in a sport with a history of cheating such as cycling has, perhaps in calmer moments JV can look at our more aggro moments in the Clinic and see it as a compliment when he or his guys are mentioned. After all, Garmin are a purportedly clean team, the only REAL dots to join pertain to riders' histories before they came TO the team, and if they're doing well enough that people can't believe they're doing it clean, then it's surely validation of those guys' talent and JV's ability to spot them.
This is a lovely post, Libertine, thanks.

Speaking of dots, let's look at some of the unjoined dots regarding JV and Garmin:
- Girona
- (Too?) Strong connections to Spain (Spanish docs, Spanish training camps)
- Matt White/Del Moral
- JV's marginal gains
- JV's explicit support of Wiggins and Sky

And then there are his plans with Bruyneel. How are any dealings with Bruyneel reconcilable with anti-doping? It isn't. not in my book. Bruyneel is complicit in arguably the biggest doping scam in the history of sports and JV knew every bit of it when he started negotiating a breakaway league with JB. What kind of league would that have been anyway? The zero-credibility league?

These dots remain virtually unaddressed by JV both in his public statements and in here. As long as he leaves them unaddressed, they remain there for us to join them. EDIT: I stress, he's not obliged to address them in any way, let me be clear about that. But then, considering the history of cycling, he shouldn't complain that guys in here do try to add 1+1. This whole discussion also touches the essence of the Clinic.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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So I read this (credits to Velodude, in the USADA thread)
Jongen also recalled that three Spanish doctors visited the team's hotels in a green station wagon. "It was the only car that wasn't branded US Postal," the former soigneur said. "All the team cars parked in front of the hotels, but this car always parked at the rear entrances. The strange thing was that these doctors always slept on another floor," Jongen added, also saying that these doctors followed the team also at the Vuelta, but that they used the main entrance then.

But former USPS team manager and current Discovery Channel team manager Johan Bruyneel denied the soigneur's statements. "Mr. Jongen has a rich imagination," Bruyneel countered. "There was one doctor in our team, no-one else, and I never saw that green station wagon - it's all nonsense. And I never said anything that should stay secret."
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/vuelta05/?id=/news/2005/aug05/aug28news
and I should just accept that Garmin's Spanish docs are clean crusaders and give them the benefit of the doubt?

And their preference for Spanish docs (I haven'T even mentioned Del Moral) is of course not the only parallel:
USPS = Girona
Garmin = Girona

USPS = hard work and cadence
Garmin = marginal gains

I'm yet to find any serious indications that Garmin are clean, other than Vaughter's word and perhaps Kimmage's 2008 internship, but as Benotti said that's a long time ago and JV still feeds of it.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
You know it has been a long time since Kimmage was with Garmin on the TdF. JV has been living of that for a while now. We now know that most of the doping is done during training. Why dont Garmin get Kimmage or similar journalist out to their most important training camp.

Then they they can report on the work of IsM and how riders train nowadays.

I think Sniper has done a good job of listing where IsM has worked. Dont mean he doped riders. But it does look 'dodgy' on your CV in the world of pro cycling.
So, you're saying IsM looks 'dodgy'* - can you point to someone (5 or 6 names will be fine) that would not look dodgy, using your same criteria?

*Also - the term dodgy came from me to describe Bartalucci of Team Sky - because he had been questioned by Italian police in 2001 and was not cleared in the first round of charges, but was cleared in the second.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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sniper said:
Meet Dr. Carlos González Haro:



One of the things that strike me (besides his commitment to Real Madrid shortly after they had been linked to Puerto) is that Gonzalez Haro has roughly the same expertise as San Millán, namely sport physiology in general, recovery systems, effects of training on metabolic systems, etc. So Garmin need not one but two guys with basically the same expertise to get their racers racing?

More generally, why is clean team Garmin drawing its doctors from Spain?
Dodgy or not, both San Millán and González Haro gained their education, field experience and carreer credits in a period in which, most agree, the Spanish sports culture was drained with doping, not just cycling, but also track and field and, well, football.

Why o why, if you're in search of anti-doping docs, throw out your fishing rod exactly in Spain?


(Never mind what Garmin was doing in Girona in the first place. Lance says hi. Del Moral says hi.)
Girona - ya, because Lance only started doping once he went to Spain.
Also - del Moral is in Valencia not Girona, of course both are in the only place to dope in Europe, Spain.

BTW - I am going to Girona very soon. So, what does that make me?
PS JV (if you managed to stick around) can you recommend a nice restaurant there.
 
I find the notion that a Spanish doc couldn't be a clean crusader a little offensive. It's one thing to suggest Spain's doping culture is more deeply ingrained than in most other countries (I'd argue that's the case), but to imply you can't possibly be clean if you're Spanish is a bit too much.
 
May 26, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
So, you're saying IsM looks 'dodgy'* - can you point to someone (5 or 6 names will be fine) that would not look dodgy, using your same criteria?

*Also - the term dodgy came from me to describe Bartalucci of Team Sky - because he had been questioned by Italian police in 2001 and was not cleared in the first round of charges, but was cleared in the second.
I think the term dodgy has been around a lot longer than you.

Yes i saming that the teams in his CV point in a direction with the signpost saying Dodgy.

60% of those polled seem to agree. :D
 
May 26, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Girona - ya, because Lance only started doping once he went to Spain.
Also - del Moral is in Valencia not Girona, of course both are in the only place to dope in Europe, Spain.

BTW - I am going to Girona very soon. So, what does that make me?

PS JV (if you managed to stick around) can you recommend a nice restaurant there.

A doping doctor obviously.

I would not recommend the bistro beside the pharmacy.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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hrotha said:
I find the notion that a Spanish doc couldn't be a clean crusader a little offensive. It's one thing to suggest Spain's doping culture is more deeply ingrained than in most other countries (I'd argue that's the case), but to imply you can't possibly be clean if you're Spanish is a bit too much.
and who's implying that? not me.

I'm just fighting for my right to be skeptical about JV, Garmin and their two (or three + Del Moral) Spanish docs, which is tough enough with the wrath of posters like Dr. Mas and JV1973 dawning upon me.

This is about skepsis and dodginess, not about guilt, claims, or accusations.

And tbh I'm baffled by several posts in here saying we should move on and just take JV on his word. I'm in the clinic to discuss signs of dodginess, or as Benotti once said, to discuss the dirty side of cycling, not to stick my head in the sand when JV tells me to.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
I think the term dodgy has been around a lot longer than you.

Yes i saming that the teams in his CV point in a direction with the signpost saying Dodgy.

60% of those polled seem to agree. :D
So.
Where are the names of people I requested that would not look dodgy under the terms you use?


The term 'dodgy' has been around before me (I would hope) - but sniper is as far as i know not a native english speaker - so I explained my use of the term.
 
sniper said:
Speaking of dots, let's look at some of the unjoined dots regarding JV and Garmin:
- Girona
- JV's marginal gains
- JV's explicit support of Wiggins and Sky
I don't see how these are 'dots' to join.


hrotha said:
I don't know if San Millán is a dodgy doctor, but what I do know is that you can't expect cycling fans to know about how he was kicked out of some teams for not wanting to dope the riders or about how he was almost assaulted by a rider with suspicious blood values when nobody says ******-all publicly.

We have to scavenge for information, finding the pieces of the puzzle then putting it together even though half of the pieces are missing, and we still get told off for not knowing anything by the people who do know, but refuse to tell us? That's wack.

(JV tells us more than any other person involved in the pro peloton, of course, but the attitude I'm talking of is something you get very often when you interact with former pros or whatever. Some discussions I've had at Foro de ciclismo or on Twitter with Spanish riders come to mind)
This is the best post in this thread.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Girona - ya, because Lance only started doping once he went to Spain.
Also - del Moral is in Valencia not Girona, of course both are in the only place to dope in Europe, Spain.

BTW - I am going to Girona very soon. So, what does that make me?
PS JV (if you managed to stick around) can you recommend a nice restaurant there.
here's a song you might like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my89RUJDN_M
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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sniper said:
and who's implying that? not me.

I'm just fighting for my right to be skeptical about JV, Garmin and their two (or three + Del Moral) Spanish docs, which is tough enough with the wrath of posters like Dr. Mas and JV1973 dawning upon me.

This is about skepsis and dodginess, not about guilt, claims, or accusations.

And tbh I'm baffled by several posts in here saying we should move on and just take JV on his word. I'm in the clinic to discuss signs of dodginess, or as Benotti once said, to discuss the dirty side of cycling, not to stick my head in the sand when JV tells me to.
What wrath?

You butted in about IsM (& JV) on numerous threads, I requested that you keep it in threads that were already there.
I also have no opinion on IsM - none. Good or bad.
Which is why I asked you and others if there was more info - you have provided nothing more on that issue.

If you had asked questions about him - I would understand that, given the sport - however you decided to have a poll on the issue, so don't try and pretend there was anything objective in your position.
Its a troll poll - nothing more.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
So.
Where are the names of people I requested that would not look dodgy under the terms you use?


The term 'dodgy' has been around before me (I would hope) - but sniper is as far as i know not a native english speaker - so I explained my use of the term.
I'm taking dodgy to mean shady.
something dodgy would be something you cannot trust without further inspection, or something you can't or shouldn't take at face value.
it certainly does NOT mean something that is by definition bad or corrupt.
It could be bad and corrupt, but need not be.

del Moral is in Valencia not Girona
I know. I took him as a pars pro toto for all the Spanish docs (three in total) that went in and out Girona to deal with Lance. Luckily, Garmin draws on two Spanish docs only and luckily the ties with Del Moral have turned out to be bogus.

It struck me that Garmin trained near Allicante, near Valencia, in the winter of last year. As far as I know, Allicante hardly has any mountains (a couple of hills, but that's it), so they probably went there for a different reason.
 
Sep 21, 2009
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sniper said:
I'm taking dodgy to mean shady.
something dodgy would be something you cannot trust without further inspection, or something you can't or shouldn't take at face value.
it certainly does NOT mean something that is by definition bad or corrupt.
It could be bad and corrupt, but need not be.


I know. I took him as a pars pro toto for all the Spanish docs (three in total) that went in and out Girona to deal with Lance. Luckily, Garmin draws on two Spanish docs only and luckily the ties with Del Moral have turned out to be bogus.

It struck me that Garmin trained near Allicante, near Valencia, in the winter of last year. As far as I know, Allicante hardly has any mountains (a couple of hills, but that's it), so they probably went there for a different reason.
Mountains in Alicante are not big, but I wouldn't call Aitana or Xorret de Catí a couple of hills. Unlike Girona, winter weather in Alicante is much better and the (mid)mountain roads are open all season. If I have to choose between those places for winter training based on roads/weather conditions, Alicante wins.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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131313 said:
This guy is not "dodgy". He's one of the good guys in the sport. The fact is, if you're involved in cycling, you're going to be *associated* with athletes who are "dodgy". So, saying "he worked with XXXX" because he happened to be employed by a team that also employed XXXX, then assuming that he had something to do with that rider's doping? That's both silly and way off base.
Being priviligezed to have worked with Beloki, Olano, Perdiguero, Piepoli et all sounds the same to me as being priviliged to have worked with Vinokourov, Kasheskin, Kessler who got busted just after the not dodgy doc stepped aside at Astana. He knew Astana was an accident waiting to happen, how about ONCE, Saunier, Vitalicio? Those teams must have been clean in his eyes? Or were they protected?

And again, he is no del Moral, Terrados, Celaya [I don't think he even attends races] but to claim this guy is clean as a whistle is hard to believe. Not that he was administring dope but he must have known a lot of the accomplishments of his teams riders were impossible to do clean.
Its a troll poll - nothing more.
One might think so if one is a JV fan.

According to ISM Allen Lim had done great work at Garmin/Slipstream before him, great collegae, untill Landis opened his big mouth of course. Now Lim is at the Shack and is shady?

In my book when you are a real clean cycling prophet you call wada when u see a suspicious bloodprofile that would indicate dope, going to the team manager makes you only part of the omerta. Don't come with the line 'he is trying to battle from within' and such crap, the pro peloton doesn't work like that, hell, mankind doesn't work like that.
 
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