How dodgy is San Millán

[Dr. Maserati]

Being priviligezed to have worked with Beloki, Olano, Perdiguero, Piepoli et all sounds the same to me as being priviliged to have worked with Vinokourov, Kasheskin, Kessler who got busted just after the not dodgy doc stepped aside at Astana. He knew Astana was an accident waiting to happen, how about ONCE, Saunier, Vitalicio? Those teams must have been clean in his eyes? Or were they protected?

And again, he is no del Moral, Terrados, Celaya [I don't think he even attends races] but to claim this guy is clean as a whistle is hard to believe. Not that he was administring dope but he must have known a lot of the accomplishments of his teams riders were impossible to do clean.


One might think so if one is a JV fan.

According to ISM Allen Lim had done great work at Garmin/Slipstream before him, great collegae, untill Landis opened his big mouth of course. Now Lim is at the Shack and is shady?

In my book when you are a real clean cycling prophet you call wada when u see a suspicious bloodprofile that would indicate dope, going to the team manager makes you only part of the omerta. Don't come with the line 'he is trying to battle from within' and such crap, the pro peloton doesn't work like that, hell, mankind doesn't work like that.

You do realize that WADA do not undertake testing?

Yet again with the JV fan stuff.
You're new here, so you may not know, but check my posting history. I have been exceedingly consistent on anti-doping - no-one is spared, ask JV how happy he was with this 'fans' view on del Moral/Lowe or his reluctance to confess.

Its a troll poll, because the OP has nothing on IsM and instead of asking questions which one would expect if one had genuine curiosity instead starts a poll.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You do realize that WADA do not undertake testing?

Hmmm, didn't know that, I am new to cycling.

You sure as hell know what I am talking of so please, stop the good news Garmin -Pravda talk.

When u are an anti doping prophet like IsM is supposed to be he could have made that telephone call to the Kazakhan ADA, if there is any of course...

Or, when he saw his compatriot Beloki riding at 6,8 w/kg on the slopes of Alpe d'Huez and the Angliru. But no, he is even proud of that.

Maybe he is sort of a good guy but he sure as hell is no Prentice Steffen who did have the balls to come forward and put his money where his mouth is.

 

[The Hitch]

I don't know if San Millán is a dodgy doctor, but what I do know is that you can't expect cycling fans to know about how he was kicked out of some teams for not wanting to dope the riders or about how he was almost assaulted by a rider with suspicious blood values when nobody says ******-all publicly.

We have to scavenge for information, finding the pieces of the puzzle then putting it together even though half of the pieces are missing, and we still get told off for not knowing anything by the people who do know, but refuse to tell us? That's wack.

(JV tells us more than any other person involved in the pro peloton, of course, but the attitude I'm talking of is something you get very often when you interact with former pros or whatever. Some discussions I've had at Foro de ciclismo or on Twitter with Spanish riders come to mind)

What i was thinking but couldn't put into words.

Excellent post

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Hmmm, didn't know that, I am new to cycling.

You sure as hell know what I am talking of so please, stop the good news Garmin -Pravda talk.

When u are an anti doping prophet like IsM is supposed to be he could have made that telephone call to the Kazakhan ADA, if there is any of course...

Actually, I don't.
In fact I can say I have little idea what you mean - and that is not a dismissal of what you say - but who in cycling (or anti-doping) would you call that would actually do something?

Or, when he saw his compatriot Beloki riding at 6,8 w/kg on the slopes of Alpe d'Huez and the Angliru. But no, he is even proud of that.

Maybe he is sort of a good guy but he sure as hell is no Prentice Steffen who did have the balls to come forward and put his money where his mouth is.

What did Prentice do? And more importantly how do you know that it is not just more propaganda put out by JV and the clever/evil PR machine at Garmin?

IsM is a physiologist, they are more often than not, nerds, dweebs, geeks - who drool over numbers, graphs and profiles.
It is not their job to police or watch over the sport. All they can do is not dope people or facilitate it.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Actually, I don't.
In fact I can say I have little idea what you mean - and that is not a dismissal of what you say - but who in cycling (or anti-doping) would you call that would actually do something?


What did Prentice do? And more importantly how do you know that it is not just more propaganda put out by JV and the clever/evil PR machine at Garmin?

IsM is a physiologist, they are more often than not, nerds, dweebs, geeks - who drool over numbers, graphs and profiles.
It is not their job to police or watch over the sport. All they can do is not dope people or facilitate it.

You don't even know how much you look like a Lance fanboy, that is sad. Keep spinning doc, have a nice day.

Maybe JV will have a nice PR job for you in the near future.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You don't even know how much you look like a Lance fanboy, that is sad. Keep spinning doc, have a nice day.

Maybe JV will have a nice PR job for you in the near future.

One more time.

If I was a fan then I would not request you (and others) to offer something more substantial than the teams he was with.

I have no opinion on IsM - offer something more than petty ad hominens.
And just for you - here is a thread I started on JV about his continued silence - have a look through it and see how much flak I took on it.

I am a fan of this sport -the personalities within it are expendable.

 

[luckyboy]

How can you, as a new fan of the sport, claim to know about all these things being discussed but not know that WADA doesn't carry out testing?

 

[function]

You don't even know how much you look like a Lance fanboy, that is sad. Keep spinning doc, have a nice day.

Great Post! Straight from the playbook, if someone disagrees with you, label them a (Lance) fanboy.

 

[acoggan]

IsM is a physiologist, they are more often than not, nerds, dweebs, geeks - who drool over numbers, graphs and profiles.

So what's wrong with that?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

How can you, as a new fan of the sport, claim to know about all these things being discussed but not know that WADA doesn't carry out testing?

Sarcasm is new to you?

Great Post! Straight from the playbook, if someone disagrees with you, label them a (Lance) fanboy.

No, my friend. When someone time after time is not responding to large parts of postings and is turning it into a Garmin PR thread I cut of the 'discussion' - which never was hence there are more persons necessary for a discussion - with that sentence.
When someone enters a thread/discussion with ''Troll poll fail.'' we could know enough. That person is unwilling to discuss.

Back on topic please.

I do think the term 'dodgy' is misplaced. San Millan worked at dodgy teams and has been praising dodgy riders but untill his short spell at Astana he never feld the need to quit teams. That is strange, his old team ONCE/Saiz were at the middle of Operation Puerto for instance. A widely respected physician like IsM should have known the numbers his riders were putting out were impossible to do clean. A reversed Omerta at the account of a B rider like Manzano was needed for that 'clean up'.

 

[sniper]

Being priviligezed to have worked with Beloki, Olano, Perdiguero, Piepoli et all sounds the same to me as being priviliged to have worked with Vinokourov, Kasheskin, Kessler who got busted just after the not dodgy doc stepped aside at Astana. He knew Astana was an accident waiting to happen, how about ONCE, Saunier, Vitalicio? Those teams must have been clean in his eyes? Or were they protected?

And again, he is no del Moral, Terrados, Celaya [I don't think he even attends races] but to claim this guy is clean as a whistle is hard to believe. Not that he was administring dope but he must have known a lot of the accomplishments of his teams riders were impossible to do clean.
One might think so if one is a JV fan.

According to ISM Allen Lim had done great work at Garmin/Slipstream before him, great collegae, untill Landis opened his big mouth of course. Now Lim is at the Shack and is shady?

In my book when you are a real clean cycling prophet you call wada when u see a suspicious bloodprofile that would indicate dope, going to the team manager makes you only part of the omerta. Don't come with the line 'he is trying to battle from within' and such crap, the pro peloton doesn't work like that, hell, mankind doesn't work like that.

Two great points at the end. Both have remained (again, like your point e.g. on perdiguero) fully unaddressed by Dr. Mas and any of the other head-in-the-sand posters in here.
If you look at Dr. Mas's responses, they're all the same: he picks out an irrelevant part of the post that he feels comfortable rebutting, and leaves the most important part of the post unaddressed. Exhibit 1:

Meet Dr. Carlos González Haro:



One of the things that strike me (besides his commitment to Real Madrid shortly after they had been linked to Puerto) is that Gonzalez Haro has roughly the same expertise as San Millán, namely sport physiology in general, recovery systems, effects of training on metabolic systems, etc. So Garmin need not one but two guys with basically the same expertise to get their racers racing?

More generally, why is clean team Garmin drawing its doctors from Spain?
Dodgy or not, both San Millán and González Haro gained their education, field experience and carreer credits in a period in which, most agree, the Spanish sports culture was drained with doping, not just cycling, but also track and field and, well, football.

Why o why, if you're in search of anti-doping docs, throw out your fishing rod exactly in Spain?


(Never mind what Garmin was doing in Girona in the first place. Lance says hi. Del Moral says hi.)

Girona - ya, because Lance only started doping once he went to Spain.
Also - del Moral is in Valencia not Girona, of course both are in the only place to dope in Europe, Spain.

BTW - I am going to Girona very soon. So, what does that make me?
PS JV (if you managed to stick around) can you recommend a nice restaurant there.

So he addresses only the Del Moral part, because he can rebut it, but doesn't address the central point i made in my post. It's typical of almost all Dr. M's posts whenever it's not going according to his book of rules.

 

[sniper]

If you had asked questions about him - I would understand that, given the sport - however you decided to have a poll on the issue, so don't try and pretend there was anything objective in your position.
Its a troll poll - nothing more.

As a matter of fact I did. You just ignored them.

(...)
I'm totally willing to believe what you write about San Millán above. But I remain skeptical about a couple of things:

1. Why did San Millán ever join Astana? Astana was always going to be dirty.

2. Who is the TdF winner that San Millán is bragging about on his CV and how clean was he?

3. Why is San Millán in one boat with Hendrik Redant?

4. Why, in a 2009(!) interview, is he all over the place trivializing cycling's doping problems and praising the UCI? If San Millán got fed up with doping in cycling, as you seem to suggest, why did he stick around in a sport whose governing body condones it?

I'll add a couple of others:
- Do you think Perdiguero's remarkable (yes, almost laughable) peak in 2004 at Saunier is unrelated to his collaboration there with ISM?
- Why is JV fishing for his docs in Spain?
- Why is Garmin based in Girona?
- Why does Garmin need a phlebotomist in full service?

 

[sniper]

Being priviligezed to have worked with Beloki, Olano, Perdiguero, Piepoli et all sounds the same to me as being priviliged to have worked with Vinokourov, Kasheskin, Kessler who got busted just after the not dodgy doc stepped aside at Astana. He knew Astana was an accident waiting to happen, how about ONCE, Saunier, Vitalicio? Those teams must have been clean in his eyes? Or were they protected?

And again, he is no del Moral, Terrados, Celaya [I don't think he even attends races] but to claim this guy is clean as a whistle is hard to believe. Not that he was administring dope but he must have known a lot of the accomplishments of his teams riders were impossible to do clean.
One might think so if one is a JV fan.

According to ISM Allen Lim had done great work at Garmin/Slipstream before him, great collegae, untill Landis opened his big mouth of course. Now Lim is at the Shack and is shady?

In my book when you are a real clean cycling prophet you call wada when u see a suspicious bloodprofile that would indicate dope, going to the team manager makes you only part of the omerta. Don't come with the line 'he is trying to battle from within' and such crap, the pro peloton doesn't work like that, hell, mankind doesn't work like that.

Excellent post and two great points at the end.
Both points remain (again, like your point e.g. on perdiguero) fully unaccounted for by any of the head-in-the-sand posters in here.
FGL, you honor your name, remaining Fearless in the face of the wrath of the doping apologists and head-in-the-sand-posters (and I'm slightly surprised there is such a hugh number of them, considering we're still in the clinic last time i checked, discussing the dirty side of cycling).

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I can't believe you keep pushing this even after Runitout and bunch of 13's confirmed JV's assesment of ISM. You look as silly as Albatross in the GL thread.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sarcasm is new to you?No, my friend. When someone time after time is not responding to large parts of postings and is turning it into a Garmin PR thread I cut of the 'discussion' - which never was hence there are more persons necessary for a discussion - with that sentence.
When someone enters a thread/discussion with ''Troll poll fail.'' we could know enough. That person is unwilling to discuss.

Back on topic please.

I do think the term 'dodgy' is misplaced. San Millan worked at dodgy teams and has been praising dodgy riders but untill his short spell at Astana he never feld the need to quit teams. That is strange, his old team ONCE/Saiz were at the middle of Operation Puerto for instance. A widely respected physician like IsM should have known the numbers his riders were putting out were impossible to do clean. A reversed Omerta at the account of a B rider like Manzano was needed for that 'clean up'.

Firstly, it is not the first time you have accused me of being a fan of JV and I corrected you those times also.
Why would I (or anyone) respond to a full post when it is full of repeated information which has already been addressed.
You pulled the fan BS when I asked direct questions.

As a matter of fact I did. You just ignored them.


I'll add a couple of others:
- Do you think Perdiguero's remarkable (yes, almost laughable) peak in 2004 at Saunier is unrelated to his collaboration there with ISM?
- Why is JV fishing for his docs in Spain?
- Why is Garmin based in Girona?
- Why does Garmin need a phlebotomist in full service?

Sniper - your "questions" came after you started this poll thread and only because you were put in your place by JV.

Girona? Again?

 

[JV1973]

You know it has been a long time since Kimmage was with Garmin on the TdF. JV has been living of that for a while now. We now know that most of the doping is done during training. Why dont Garmin get Kimmage or similar journalist out to their most important training camp.

Then they they can report on the work of IsM and how riders train nowadays.

I think Sniper has done a good job of listing where IsM has worked. Dont mean he doped riders. But it does look 'dodgy' on your CV in the world of pro cycling.

Dear Benottihasnever69edanygirlever,

Kimmage lived with us during our pre tour camp in 2008 and lived with us during the Tour that year. He has been invited to do so again in 2009, or any other time he wishes. Please ask him to confirm.

get your facts straight. Actually, no, get some facts...any facts. Because you have never stated any from what I see.

Thanks, JV

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Firstly, it is not the first time you have accused me of being a fan of JV and I corrected you those times also.
Why would I (or anyone) respond to a full post when it is full of repeated information which has already been addressed.
You pulled the fan BS when I asked direct questions.

Maybe you could for once get on topic instead of this obvious trolling around.

I can't believe you keep pushing this even after Runitout and bunch of 13's confirmed JV's assesment of ISM. You look as silly as Albatross in the GL thread.

I don't want to be rude but I really can't see their statements as a reason not to have some questions about this clean cycling prophet. I don't know who these guys are so why would I take their word? That said, don't you think people can make up their own mind and how to think?

So enough of this crap and get back on topic:


Being priviligezed to have worked with Beloki, Olano, Perdiguero, Piepoli et all sounds the same to me as being priviliged to have worked with Vinokourov, Kasheskin, Kessler who got busted just after the not dodgy doc stepped aside at Astana. He knew Astana was an accident waiting to happen, how about ONCE, Saunier, Vitalicio? Those teams must have been clean in his eyes? Or were they protected?

And again, he is no del Moral, Terrados, Celaya [I don't think he even attends races] but to claim this guy is clean as a whistle is hard to believe. Not that he was administring dope but he must have known a lot of the accomplishments of his teams riders were impossible to do clean.

According to ISM Allen Lim had done great work at Garmin/Slipstream before him, great collegae, untill Landis opened his big mouth of course. Now Lim is at the Shack and is shady?

In my book when you are a real clean cycling prophet you call wada when u see a suspicious bloodprofile that would indicate dope, going to the team manager makes you only part of the omerta. Don't come with the line 'he is trying to battle from within' and such crap, the pro peloton doesn't work like that, hell, mankind doesn't work like that.

I came across the following before but lost a link, thanx to 'the big ring' the next:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/who-is-dr-inigo-san-millan

"I was always really attracted to this team. It's definitely a team that has stepped into the new era of cycling," he said. "I think Jonathan Vaughters had done a great job of developing the team from a junior squad he was directing [TIAA-CREF] to one of the best ProTour teams in the world.

"It's a far more modern team than other squads. To me, it's a whole new concept of cycling team. I think the anglo-saxon mentality towards cycling is completely different to the European one] are very, very open to gaining new information on their bodies and physiology over time, so that they can improve their performance.

"They're very well educated in a lot of concepts such as power, lactate thresholds and heartrate. It makes it much easier to work with them as opposed to Europeans, who it can be more difficult to educate in these methodologies."

compared to
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/inigo-san-millan

It's important to do blood analysis, there's many parameters in the blood that can give you very accurate answers of what's going on. Here in the US, applied exercise physiology is not very clinical, they have brilliant physiologists working at universities, very well prepared, probably better than in Europe, right? But from the applied standpoint, there's not much scientific approach, and not much clinical aspect.

For example, this blood analysis, for us, in Europe, it's a must. We even do it to junior athletes, monthly blood analysis to see how well they're assimilating competition and training, therefore we can detect problems in their training programs, identify them and correct them. Whereas if you never do any tests, you're going to miss this point, and this is what I'm seeing in the athletes here. Many athletes are overtrained. I'm kinda shocked to see how many cyclists are overtrained, they never have heard about these things. So they get used to this. Sometimes I see someone, "You're fried! You're overtrained, you're fatigued!"

"Yeah, yeah, but I'm a cyclist, I'm supposed to be tired."

MAybe I am reading this stuff incorrect but isn't this contradicting to the bone? So, in eleven months time the situation in the States and Europe are reversed?

Cheers,
FGL
Game on.

 

[sniper]

Dear Benottihasnever69edanygirlever,

Kimmage lived with us during our pre tour camp in 2008 and lived with us during the Tour that year. He has been invited to do so again in 2009, or any other time he wishes. Please ask him to confirm.

get your facts straight. Actually, no, get some facts...any facts. Because you have never stated any from what I see.

Thanks, JV

stop getting personal and wound up in each single one of your posts (unnecessary and with a big Wiggins flavor to it) and start addressing some of the facts that have been laid out in this thread.
Or don't, but then stop wining.

 

[Benotti69]

Dear Benottihasnever69edanygirlever,

Kimmage lived with us during our pre tour camp in 2008 and lived with us during the Tour that year. He has been invited to do so again in 2009, or any other time he wishes. Please ask him to confirm.

get your facts straight. Actually, no, get some facts...any facts. Because you have never stated any from what I see.

Thanks, JV

Good to see your 1st year in school insults are not being wasted.

How about adressing some of the points and not doing an Armstrong and ranting at the people making them?

How about you contact Kimmage and invite him? You apparently know the guy.

I prefer it that you dont post unless you are going to give us some inside knowledge of the pro peloton or a pro team and not snippets and hints. Vroomen can do much better on his blog and he claims he wan't privy to all that went on in the pro teams he wa associated with.

Better you post crap like the above anonymously.

 

[sniper]

Firstly, it is not the first time you have accused me of being a fan of JV and I corrected you those times also.
Why would I (or anyone) respond to a full post when it is full of repeated information which has already been addressed.
You pulled the fan BS when I asked direct questions.


Sniper - your "questions" came after you started this poll thread and only because you were put in your place by JV.

Girona? Again?

True, they came after JV sticked some feathers up your thingie (which I'm sure gave you an orgasm), but well before you stated that I wasn't asking any questions.

And I see you're unable to answer the questions. Why didn't you just say so? Would have spared us the backandforth posting.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I came across the following before but lost a link, thanx to 'the big ring' the next:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/who-is-dr-inigo-san-millan

"I was always really attracted to this team. It's definitely a team that has stepped into the new era of cycling," he said. "I think Jonathan Vaughters had done a great job of developing the team from a junior squad he was directing [TIAA-CREF] to one of the best ProTour teams in the world.

"It's a far more modern team than other squads. To me, it's a whole new concept of cycling team. I think the anglo-saxon mentality towards cycling is completely different to the European one] are very, very open to gaining new information on their bodies and physiology over time, so that they can improve their performance.

"They're very well educated in a lot of concepts such as power, lactate thresholds and heartrate. It makes it much easier to work with them as opposed to Europeans, who it can be more difficult to educate in these methodologies."

compared to
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/inigo-san-millan

It's important to do blood analysis, there's many parameters in the blood that can give you very accurate answers of what's going on. Here in the US, applied exercise physiology is not very clinical, they have brilliant physiologists working at universities, very well prepared, probably better than in Europe, right? But from the applied standpoint, there's not much scientific approach, and not much clinical aspect.

For example, this blood analysis, for us, in Europe, it's a must. We even do it to junior athletes, monthly blood analysis to see how well they're assimilating competition and training, therefore we can detect problems in their training programs, identify them and correct them. Whereas if you never do any tests, you're going to miss this point, and this is what I'm seeing in the athletes here. Many athletes are overtrained. I'm kinda shocked to see how many cyclists are overtrained, they never have heard about these things. So they get used to this. Sometimes I see someone, "You're fried! You're overtrained, you're fatigued!"

"Yeah, yeah, but I'm a cyclist, I'm supposed to be tired."

MAybe I am reading this stuff incorrect but isn't this contradicting to the bone? So, in eleven months time the situation in the States and Europe are reversed?

Cheers,
FGL

 

[JV1973]

Maybe you guys don't get it? I post like this because I don't actually have any respect for you.

Your questions don't actually make sense and are all about "well, this guy once had ice cream in Toronto and the ice cream shop was next to a transfusion clinic and his brother overheard his friend saying that athletes like vanilla ice cream...therefor: doping is rampant!!!"

Sorry, but until you actually ask a question that makes any sort of sense, I'm not answering other than making fun of you fools.

(disclaimer: most of you are exempted from this, I am referring to BenottiVirgin, NerfSniper, and this guy who seems to think he knows Greg Lemond)

Btw - Did you know Greg sponsors our team? He must be involved in the deeper conspiracy too.

Any and all questions that are formulated with some sense in logic will be answers by me. When I have time. Thanks, JV

Back to my evil laboratory, Pinky needs to be fed.

 

[red_flanders]

Please stop with the insults. Thank you. Posts have been deleted.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

stop getting personal and wound up in each single one of your posts (unnecessary and with a big Wiggins flavor to it) and start addressing some of the facts that have been laid out in this thread.
Or don't, but then stop wining.

You accuse his team of doping, him of lying and employing staff (from Spain!!!) to dope riders.....
And then you want him to not take it personally?

 

[sniper]

I can't believe you keep pushing this even after Runitout and bunch of 13's confirmed JV's assesment of ISM. You look as silly as Albatross in the GL thread.

You can rejoice, TT, JV has respect for you.

I don't want to be rude but I really can't see their statements as a reason not to have some questions about this clean cycling prophet. I don't know who these guys are so why would I take their word? That said, don't you think people can make up their own mind and how to think?

thanks for this.
Tbh, I'm slightly baffled by the number of posters coming in here with a need to tell us what we should and should not, can and cannot, discuss.