How does a classics rider win the Tour?

A

Anonymous

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Simple math.

Effective Pharmachology + Michele Ferrari + Corruption at the UCI = 7 straight Tour victories.
 
Jul 16, 2009
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In order to win, one must have a better overall time then everyone else still in the race when it crosses the finish line of the final stage.

it is literally that simple :)
 
Mar 4, 2010
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HemAssist will have allowed him to effectively circumvent limitations on blood boosting such as the 50% crit limit and off-score.

Level playing field indeed...
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Tyler'sTwin said:
HemAssist will have allowed him to effectively circumvent limitations on blood boosting such as the 50% crit limit and off-score.

Level playing field indeed...
Also makes the blood "slippery" when it is packed
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Also makes the blood "slippery" when it is packed
"slippery".
That is fascinating.

And this "slippery-ness" is where the transformation takes place?
Transmorgafied from a classics rider into a GT Winner.
Fascinating.
 
TheComeBackKid said:
Why would Landis say Armstrong used EPO and blood transfusions (mainly blood transfusions) for his tour wins if he had this other drug instead? Did Landis take this drug? He hasn't mentioned it yet. Why not?
Because he did use EPO and blood transfusions? There is enough evidence from 1999 and 2009 to make such conclusions.
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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TheComeBackKid said:
A number of questions arise. Is there a test for it? The drug has been around since the late 1990s so the authorities must know about it?

Why would Landis say Armstrong used EPO and blood transfusions (mainly blood transfusions) for his tour wins if he had this other drug instead? Did Landis take this drug? He hasn't mentioned it yet. Why not?

Maybe Armstrong did experiment with it, but it could also be the case he never got passed the experimental phase given no one seems to have heard of it and it didn't take off in the peloton. The story that he got access to a trial drug at all is probably more the issue.

The story is that Lance once boasted to a team mate that he knew about this new wonder drug that no one else could get. Race Radio has told this story many a time in the clinic - he knows the old team mate Lance boasted to.

You know Lance, always wanting the latest and greatest. The story rings true hello....but still SSDD from long ago.
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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TheComeBackKid said:
Yes it sounds true. As a bit of fanboy I have to point out that it's unlikely this drug is the reason he won 7 tours. Landis says it was mainly done with blood transfusions in the same way that others at the top were doing.
Amen brother - I'm with you.

The whole myth that "Lance was transformed by EPO" into a 7 time winner of the TdF is so bogus. Laughable.

But there are many here in the Clinic that actually believe it.
Transformed. Transmorgified. Radioactive unicorn bite transformation.
Enjoy it, it is amusing to watch:)
 
Dec 7, 2010
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TheComeBackKid said:
Yes it sounds true. As a bit of fanboy I have to point out that it's unlikely this drug is the reason he won 7 tours. Landis says it was mainly done with blood transfusions in the same way that others at the top were doing.
We've know idea of the full details Landis has given investigators. Don't assume that everything he had to say has already been published.
 
TheComeBackKid said:
A number of questions arise. Is there a test for it? The drug has been around since the late 1990s so the authorities must know about it?

Why would Landis say Armstrong used EPO and blood transfusions (mainly blood transfusions) for his tour wins if he had this other drug instead? Did Landis take this drug? He hasn't mentioned it yet. Why not?

Maybe Armstrong did experiment with it, but it could also be the case he never got passed the experimental phase given no one seems to have heard of it and it didn't take off in the peloton. The story that he got access to a trial drug at all is probably more the issue.
HemAssist was made by coupling ethylene glycol (which is used in the freezing of red blood cells for long-term storage) to hemoglobin. As I understand it, it was a way of making use of outdated blood, since the hemoglobin was obtained from that. Baxter, the company producing it, pulled it off the market I think in 1998, because of clinical trial evidence that it resulted in greater mortality than controls. However, later studies with laboratory animals suggested it could be useful in some circumstances.

This is a very interesting allegation by SI. The charge that LA was taking something not available to other riders is not new, of course, e.g., Lemond said this in an interview back in 2002, I think. But I always assumed that if LA were taking a blood substitute, it would be perfluorocarbon, which can't be tested for and which leaves the system quite quickly. Hemassist could not have been tested for (by UCI) when it first came out, but now it might be detected in the biopassport, which measures hemoglobin levels.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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TheComeBackKid said:
Yeah, obviously, I totally agree. But the allegation by the opening poster is Armstrong turned into a tour winner by taking this new drug that is better than EPO that no one has ever heard of. I'm asking if this is so, why hasn't Landis mentioned it?

This new info does raise a number of questions, don't you think?
There was a story about Rasmussen using a similar product (HemoPure) and JJ spoke of synthetic hemoglobin.

HBOC's are detectable, but perhaps they weren't tested for?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14764640

Would they really raise Hb though? Wouldn't that pretty much take away the incentive to use them? I thought the point was that they do not affect crit or Hb? Why else would you use that stuff instead of good, old autologous?
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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TheComeBackKid said:
Yeah, obviously, I totally agree. But the allegation by the opening poster is Armstrong turned into a tour winner by taking this new drug that is better than EPO that no one has ever heard of. I'm asking if this is so, why hasn't Landis mentioned it?

This new info does raise a number of questions, don't you think?
If no-one (except Lance) had ever heard of it BPC - then how would Landis know about it to mention it?
 
it really is amazing. literally everything the logical people here for years have said happened:

1. He blood doped.
2. He paid off the uci
3. He used ferrari to gain doping advantage throughout all his winning years and even his comeback
4. He had access to an undetectable drug no one else did

the fanboys have ridiculed all these points over the years.

and yet they all turn out to be true.

it really brings into question whether armstrong could even have been an average pro rider without the above.

the greatest sports fraud in history...

now who said that before...who?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Can a test be developed for it, and will they then re-test all of those samples Lance said they could keep? No wonder the guy was so cocky for so long. He never thought that they would find out he had access to a discontinued doping product that nobody else could have. Perfect EPO replacement indeed.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
Can a test be developed for it, and will they then re-test all of those samples Lance said they could keep? No wonder the guy was so cocky for so long. He never thought that they would find out he had access to a discontinued doping product that nobody else could have. Perfect EPO replacement indeed.
Presumably a test could be developed, but doubtful anyone is going to pay for that, since it never made it past clinical trials. Perhaps Dr. Catlin could take that on?
 
Apr 9, 2009
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I just hope David Walsh and Paul Kimmage get all the public credit they deserve for being the knowledgable clear-eyed cycling reporters who knew the sport better than most and saw this fraud for what it was from the beginning. Walsh did an interview a couple of years ago where he said that the majority of the press core at the TDF in '99 was looking at each other and laughing as Armstrong rode away from everyone up Sestrierre as the majority knew exactly what a joke it was for a flat stage hunter to drop everyone up a mountain. But the rest of the reporters jumped on the bandwagon and pretty much only Walsh and Kimmage would stand on the side of truth.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Thoughtforfood said:
Can a test be developed for it, and will they then re-test all of those samples Lance said they could keep? No wonder the guy was so cocky for so long. He never thought that they would find out he had access to a discontinued doping product that nobody else could have. Perfect EPO replacement indeed.
HBOC's have been detectable since at least 2004.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14764640

The WADA report on the 2010 TdF also spoke of HBOC testing.
 
Armstrong finished on the podium in the 96 Paris Nice. Its not the Tour, but theres a strong correlation between sucess in Paris Nice and being a Tour contender come July.

There is also a strong correlation between being a world road race champion at a young age and becoming a tour contender.

Before world war 3 breaks out, this isnt a suggestion that Armstrong is clean, just that his GT ability didn't suddenly appear at the same time as this wonder drug.
 
May 26, 2010
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andy1234 said:
Armstrong finished on the podium in the 96 Paris Nice. Its not the Tour, but theres a strong correlation between sucess in Paris Nice and being a Tour contender come July.

There is also a strong correlation between being a world road race champion at a young age and becoming a tour contender.

Before world war 3 breaks out, this isnt a suggestion that Armstrong is clean, just that his GT ability didn't suddenly appear at the same time as this wonder drug.
Sean Kelly won that race a record number of times yet could not get near a win in the TdF or GdI and just managed to win the vuelta, how? i dont know

So Kelly should have won the TdF a record 10, 11 or 12 times in a row:rolleyes:
 
Aug 3, 2009
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andy1234 said:
Armstrong finished on the podium in the 96 Paris Nice. Its not the Tour, but theres a strong correlation between sucess in Paris Nice and being a Tour contender come July.
I don't think that's quite accurate. Paris Nice has long been considered a test of fitness for those contenders already intending on competing in the Tour later tin the year.

That's a far cry from suggesting that if a rider can win Paris Nice, then he has a good chance of winning the Tour. There are planty of Paris Nice winners who never even saw a Tour podium.

Hell, Sean Kelly won the damned thing seven times in a row from '82 through '88, and his best Tour finish during that span was a 4th in '86. He had a DNF in '87 and finished 43rd in '88.
 
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