how long before Sagan trips the tripwire

[gobuck]

Love watching his antics but no way is he on bread and water. You cannot pull for 2 kms with hill and then win a sprint. He has more energy systems on full turbo than the space shuttle does at liftoff.

 

[Afrank]

Love watching his antics but no way is he on bread and water. You cannot pull for 2 kms with hill and then win a sprint. He has more energy systems on full turbo than the space shuttle does at liftoff.

Either he's the the second coming a Merckx or at the very least an enormous phenom (very likely IMO), or he's a big talent that's using PED's to help him (less likely IMO, but can't discount the possibility).
He hasn't really done anything that is way way outside the realm of possibility for someone with his talent though. For me at least at this point in his career, he hasn't done anything that is a direct indication of doping.

 

[Lanark]

Either he's the the second coming a Merckx or at the very least an enormous phenom (very likely IMO), or he's a big talent that's using PED's to help him (less likely IMO, but can't discount the possibility).
He hasn't really done anything that is way way outside the realm of possibility for someone with his talent though. For me at least at this point in his career, he hasn't done anything that is a direct indication of doping.

How do you know what his talent is though? By looking at his results?

 

[Afrank]

How do you know what his talent is though? By looking at his results?

Yes, looking at his results, especially his early results from when he was young. He got some very good results from a very early age, and I doubt he was doping when he was very young and just starting out, so I think his results when he was much younger indicates he always had a lot of talent.

Blackbandit over at Velorooms made a Sagan thread which has a lot of info about Sagan from when he was young. Worth a read to learn a little more about him. http://velorooms.com/mens-road-cycling/peter-sagan-fan-boy-thread-presented-by-blackbandit/

 

[Lanark]

Yes, looking at his results, especially his early results from when he was young. He got some very good results from a very early age, and I doubt he was doping when he was very young and just starting out, so I think his results when he was much younger indicates he always had a lot of talent.

Blackbandit over at Velorooms made a Sagan thread which has a lot of info about Sagan from when he was young. Worth a read to learn a little more about him. http://velorooms.com/mens-road-cycling/peter-sagan-fan-boy-thread-presented-by-blackbandit/

I'm not 100% sure on that. It's true that when Sagan joined the pro's, he immediately showed a lot of potential, in fact in his first race he already impressed a lot.

Before he turned pro though? Sure, looking back a narrative could be created that he was always a talent, but his 2009 u23 season really wasn't that impressive, and barely anybody saw him as a huge talent before the Tour Down Under in 2010 (he was mentioned once on this forum, compare that to how wel known talents like Boasson Hagen, Tony Martin or Gesink where before they joined the pro ranks). Now it's not unkown for young riders to make big jumps in performance, but the jump that Sagan made in the 2009/2010 winter is incredibly big.

 

[hiero2]

Interesting debate over Sagan: he has been a phenom from a very early age, and while he is ridiculously good now, heads and shoulders above everyone else, it is in line with his general development curve. There's no spike in performance that usually gets people riled.

Plus he can pull skidz:

Yes, looking at his results, especially his early results from when he was young. He got some very good results from a very early age, and I doubt he was doping when he was very young and just starting out, so I think his results when he was much younger indicates he always had a lot of talent.

Blackbandit over at Velorooms made a Sagan thread which has a lot of info about Sagan from when he was young. Worth a read to learn a little more about him. http://velorooms.com/mens-road-cycling/peter-sagan-fan-boy-thread-presented-by-blackbandit/

While the consistency is, in my mind, a point or two in his favor, I've heard too much about high school kids using PEDs to think that those early results mean he isn't using PEDs. And I KNOW some high school kids are very often quite willing to take risks with drugs that they wouldn't if they were 10 years older and/or a little wiser.

On top of that, we have, as I pointed out, the Slovak history in recent times. I think it is unlikely that his parents' income or position is as humble as PR would like us to believe. Ditto his accomplishments. A lot more 'stuff' is/was available when one had expendable income over there. Given the instability in recent decades, more morality was for sale, as well.

So, I note the consistency, and my radar remains on high alert.

 

[JimmyFingers]

While the consistency is, in my mind, a point or two in his favor, I've heard too much about high school kids using PEDs to think that those early results mean he isn't using PEDs. And I KNOW some high school kids are very often quite willing to take risks with drugs that they wouldn't if they were 10 years older and/or a little wiser.

On top of that, we have, as I pointed out, the Slovak history in recent times. I think it is unlikely that his parents' income or position is as humble as PR would like us to believe. Ditto his accomplishments. A lot more 'stuff' is/was available when one had expendable income over there. Given the instability in recent decades, more morality was for sale, as well.

So, I note the consistency, and my radar remains on high alert.

And there's the rub isn't it: a steady development curve from junior to senior means little if the rider as a junior was doping. I'll agree his power and speed and more to the point, in an age of specialisation, his ability to win on a variety of parcours is amazing. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, because of the skidz

 

[Ferminal]

Even though I think he's a great sprinter I don't think it makes him a doper. Well it's crazy, but no one has explained the physiology to me. So as far as I can comprehend, hat he's good at multiple disciplines doesn't make him a doper.

My problem is that he's effectively put himself in the company of Boonen/Cancellara/Gilbert. None of them have tested positive I guess.

 

[Afrank]

I'm not 100% sure on that. It's true that when Sagan joined the pro's, he immediately showed a lot of potential, in fact in his first race he already impressed a lot.

Before he turned pro though? Sure, looking back a narrative could be created that he was always a talent, but his 2009 u23 season really wasn't that impressive, and barely anybody saw him as a huge talent before the Tour Down Under in 2010 (he was mentioned once on this forum, compare that to how wel known talents like Boasson Hagen, Tony Martin or Gesink where before they joined the pro ranks). Now it's not unkown for young riders to make big jumps in performance, but the jump that Sagan made in the 2009/2010 winter is incredibly big.

That could be because he didn't seem to compete in a bunch of really high profile races that attract a lot of attention in 2009. Nevertheless his results in the races he did compete in were solid.
He also almost quit road cycling after being frustrated about not being able to get a contract with Quick Step. So maybe that has something to do with his not showing much in 2009.

 

[kingjr]

You cannot pull for 2 kms with hill and then win a sprint.

And because of that he must be doping? That's just BS.

 

[will10]

And because of that he must be doping? That's just BS.

It's the sort of thing you might see someone capable of pulling off in a lesser race or at amateur level. To do that against a good field, against one of the best riders in the world on that type of finish, is bound to raise eyebrows.

 

[blackcat]

I'm not 100% sure on that. It's true that when Sagan joined the pro's, he immediately showed a lot of potential, in fact in his first race he already impressed a lot.

Before he turned pro though? Sure, looking back a narrative could be created that he was always a talent, but his 2009 u23 season really wasn't that impressive, and barely anybody saw him as a huge talent before the Tour Down Under in 2010 (he was mentioned once on this forum, compare that to how wel known talents like Boasson Hagen, Tony Martin or Gesink where before they joined the pro ranks). Now it's not unkown for young riders to make big jumps in performance, but the jump that Sagan made in the 2009/2010 winter is incredibly big.

Jacob on Daily Peloton sure did. he was touting him for years before

 

[hiero2]

. . .. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, because of the skidz

I have to admit - the skidz was cool!

. . is that he's effectively put himself in the company of Boonen/Cancellara/Gilbert. None of them have tested positive I guess.

Not just in company with - but beating them - consistently - and beating all of them. Cav's quote put it well, I thought. Remember where Cav said Sagan was making them all look like juniors?

And, I'm not convinced he's doping, either. But I AM convinced I think I should keep my suspicion radar on high. Remember what they say when something looks too good to be true . . .

 

[kingjr]

is bound to raise eyebrows.

Thats quite a step going from "must be doping" to "bound to raise eyebrows".

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

TBH, Gilbert also opened up his sprint too early and misjudged the finish. The road had flattened out and there was a headwind, so Phil was burning the jet fuel big time and it was partly Sagan overtaking him, partly him slowing down.

Not saying Sagan's performances are suspect, just saying that this was not all Sagan crushing Gilbert.

Sunday should be interesting

TBH Gilbert sat on for over 2km, and was obviously convinced he had that one in the bag.

You're saying Gilbert was burning jet fuel in the last 50m and that was crucial, but Sagz pulling the break back solo for over 2km isn't?

Wind the clock back, and imagine what Gilbert would've done.

This was indeed Sagan crushing Gilbert.

Crushing.

 

[Ripper]

TBH Gilbert sat on for over 2km, and was obviously convinced he had that one in the bag.

You're saying Gilbert was burning jet fuel in the last 50m and that was crucial, but Sagz pulling the break back solo for over 2km isn't?

Wind the clock back, and imagine what Gilbert would've done.

This was indeed Sagan crushing Gilbert.

Crushing.

And I simply said not all. I'm not some sort of unicorn believing nit and the Sag man is more than just a bit suspect. But perhaps Gilbert indeed thought he had it in the bag and that's why he played a bad sprint. To me he actually looked a bit nervous and that might be why he went too early. Or perhaps he just wanted to see if he could take it from a long way out.

Wind the clock back ... LMAO ... F-W 2011

 

[Hugh Januss]

Unfortunately this is what the history of bicycle racing has brought us to. Do we think Sagan is doping? I say "hell yes, he would have to be in order to be competitive". But is he doing something extra-special (like Sky obviously are, to rule multi day races the way they have been), or does he excel at the type of races he does because of his combination of super bike handling skills, top notch kick and gritty extended power.............and doping?
I think he is as "natural" as they come these days.

 

[barn yard]

I watched the final 2 hours of Roubaix, why do you ask?

We're talking about Sagan at the Prijs.

because fabian did exactly what you are complaining about, but he is a 'nice guy' who speaks fluent english so people just ignore these obvious 'not normal' performances

 

[taiwan]

because fabian did exactly what you are complaining about, but he is a 'nice guy' who speaks fluent english so people just ignore these obvious 'not normal' performances

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=6826

And "fluent English"??! That's a stretch with all due respect.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

because fabian did exactly what you are complaining about, but he is a 'nice guy' who speaks fluent english so people just ignore these obvious 'not normal' performances

Yeah let me introduce to the 3-4 rider types:

roleur
TTer
climber
sprinter

which ones is Fabs, and which one is Sagan?

Clue: Fabian can't sprint.

Also: Taiwan is basically saying Fabian and Sagan are in the same doping boat. I agree.

The last P-R, Fabs was swapping turns with someone who couldn't keep his contract at Garmin.

 

[Netserk]

Yeah let me introduce to the 3-4 rider types:

roleur
TTer
climber
sprinter

which ones is Fabs, and which one is Sagan?

Clue: Fabian can't sprint.

Also: Taiwan is basically saying Fabian and Sagan are in the same doping boat. I agree.

The last P-R, Fabs was swapping turns with someone who couldn't keep his contract at Garmin.

Sagan is a puncheur/sprinter. Like Bettini and Freire. Although he is a better rouleur than both.

 

[classicomano]

Human after all?

 

[Ferminal]

Yep, dopers never have a crap day!

 

[blackcat]

Sagan is a puncheur/sprinter. Like Bettini and Freire. Although he is a better rouleur than both.

and a better sprinter.

and bike handler

 

[Netserk]

and a better sprinter.

and bike handler

I wouldn't say that he is a better sprinter than Freire when he was at his best.