how long before Sagan trips the tripwire

[blackcat]

Yeah let me introduce to the 3-4 rider types:

roleur
TTer
climber
sprinter

which ones is Fabs, and which one is Sagan?

Clue: Fabian can't sprint.

Also: Taiwan is basically saying Fabian and Sagan are in the same doping boat. I agree.

The last P-R, Fabs was swapping turns with someone who couldn't keep his contract at Garmin.

I reckon fabian could sprint if he trained it.

see this stage for example
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2005//tour05/?id=results/tour057

 

[JimmyFingers]

no-one pulls as long skidz either

 

[Ferminal]

And 5th or whatever on Champs 2 years ago (positioning is 90% there though).

and 4th in Copenhagen, and closest to Goss in M-SR the same year.

 

[Netserk]

I reckon fabian could sprint if he trained it.

see this stage for example
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2005//tour05/?id=results/tour057

And the Champs-Elysée stage in 2011. (and WC '11)

 

[Netserk]

And 5th or whatever on Champs 2 years ago (positioning is 90% there though).

and 4th in Copenhagen, and closest to Goss in M-SR the same year.

I have been sniped

 

[blackcat]

I wouldn't say that he is a better sprinter than Freire when he was at his best.

a different type of sprinter.

freire used to hide and hide and hide, and did not like the wind and winning from in front. he was alays second wheel at 100 metres

wind edit, not win

 

[bissib]

On top of that, we have, as I pointed out, the Slovak history in recent times. I think it is unlikely that his parents' income or position is as humble as PR would like us to believe. Ditto his accomplishments. A lot more 'stuff' is/was available when one had expendable income over there. Given the instability in recent decades, more morality was for sale, as well.

You consider owning a small grocery shop being rich? I'm also not sure what you mean by "instability" as the only notable moments in recent decades were a non-violent revolution that happened before Sagan was even born and the peaceful dissolution of Czechoslovakia that happened when Sagan was 2 years old. I'm his age and from the same country and I can tell you that Slovakia really wasn't/isn't the Wild East you know from American movies. With the same amount of "morality for sale" as any other western country.

As for people saying he could have been doping since his youth - Sagan has been pretty much dominating his categories since the age of 9, he's just a natural talent. I'm not saying he is clean now, but he was already winning everything at a time when he was definitely clean.

 

[blackcat]

As for people saying he could have been doping since his youth - Sagan has been pretty much dominating his categories since the age of 9, he's just a natural talent. I'm not saying he is clean now, but he was already winning everything at a time when he was definitely clean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SoLoong1yk

 

[roundabout]

And 5th or whatever on Champs 2 years ago (positioning is 90% there though).

and 4th in Copenhagen, and closest to Goss in M-SR the same year.

2nd on the stage to Montpellier in 2007.

Ok, half the field got lost in the wind that day.

 

[hiero2]

You consider owning a small grocery shop being rich? I'm also not sure what you mean by "instability" as the only notable moments in recent decades were a non-violent revolution that happened before Sagan was even born and the peaceful dissolution of Czechoslovakia that happened when Sagan was 2 years old. I'm his age and from the same country and I can tell you that Slovakia really wasn't/isn't the Wild East you know from American movies. With the same amount of "morality for sale" as any other western country.

As for people saying he could have been doping since his youth - Sagan has been pretty much dominating his categories since the age of 9, he's just a natural talent. I'm not saying he is clean now, but he was already winning everything at a time when he was definitely clean.

Now, first off - don't exaggerate what I said. Example, when did I equate the Sagan family status to being rich? Although, I am still skeptical that they are the lower middle class as they are portrayed. Upper middle class, with expendable income, will do nicely. Now, as to that special moment of non-violent conversion from the Soviet bloc to an independent country?

Well, I'm not getting my impressions from American movies. I am getting my impressions from 1: having lived and worked in Russia for a time, 2: having economic training in my background, and a special interest in the economic history of Russia over the last 2 decades, 3: visits to Poland and conversations with Poles about their experiences during the times of change, 4: friends and acquaintances from Russia, the Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, with whom I have discussed the economic experiences over the past 20 years.

I'll admit, I know no one from Slovakia, but now I'm having a conversation with you, and your IP address confirms that you are posting from Slovakia. All the rest of the former Soviet bloc has had huge economic upheaval and issues during the change and since. Most are still experiencing huge economic issues. We also know of the huge difficulties experienced in your other next door neighbors - the former Yugoslavia.

In any of those countries, even having the income of an upper middle class family would allow one to buy things, usually more than what one could get in, say, Britain, on a similar income. Lots of stuff was on the black/grey market as well.

Now, if Slovakia escaped all this turmoil and economic upheaval, great. But I know things in lots of your neighbors are still very grim.

If you think my suspicions regarding the economics of Slovakia are misplaced, I apologize, and would love to hear more about what things are like today. It doesn't really impact my suspicions regarding Sagan's cleanliness.

While you probably won't have seen it, I have posted before that I hope Sagan is riding clean. But until we have more confidence in the testing regimes of the UCI, and more confidence in a culture of transparency from the peloton, I don't think I will have any confidence that Sagan is riding clean.

 

[l.Harm]

You must love privacy Why you reveal he's from Slovakia? Should be up to him.

 

[Netserk]

You must love privacy Why you reveal he's from Slovakia? Should be up to him.

I'm quite sure he has said that himself in one of his posts.

EDIT: he said it in the post hiero quoted.

 

[bissib]

Ok, sorry, you seem to have more insight than I thought. But still, Czechoslovakia was slightly different - not too different from Poland and Hungary, but very different from the rest of the countries you mentioned. Especially Yugoslavia is completely unrelated since (despite having communism) it wasn't even part of the Eastern Bloc and the instability in 90s was caused by ethnic tensions, not economic. The transition from planned economy to capitalism was easier in Czechoslovakia than anywhere else (well, not counting East Germany since they were helped by West Germany) and both countries have enjoyed a steady economic growth every year after the revolution. I don't really think there was any instability directly after the fall of communism and definitely not when Sagan was growing up.

But we are getting waaay off topic.

You must love privacy Why you reveal he's from Slovakia? Should be up to him.

I revealed it myself in my previous post.

 

[Pandora]

I won't be discussing Slovak economics and politics, only want to say that I'm sure that a family with 3 kids owing a grocery shop in Slovakia cannot afford a doping program for one of them lasting long enough to get noticed and signed by a pro team.

What makes me believe Sagan is top talent and clean(ish) even today is his brother. Juraj could be the nicest guy in the world, but probably got a contract only because Liqui wanted Peter at all costs. I don't believe that Peter has something that works so well, and wouldn't share it with his bro. And Juraj's results since 2010 show that he has to be as clean as whistle

 

[bissib]

What makes me believe Sagan is top talent and clean(ish) even today is his brother. Juraj could be the nicest guy in the world, but probably got a contract only because Liqui wanted Peter at all costs. I don't believe that Peter has something that works so well, and wouldn't share it with his bro. And Juraj's results since 2010 show that he has to be as clean as whistle

This is actually a great point

Including the "clean(ish)" part.

 

[masking_agent]

could Sagan's poor performance be from possibly withdrawing blood after his visit to Spain last week ? I remember reading something similar in Tyler Hamilton's book where he was asked to ride after withdrawing blood and he could barely match the backmarker's pace in the peloton. Maybe the same has happened to Sagan ?

 

[pedromartins]

could Sagan's poor performance be from possibly withdrawing blood after his visit to Spain last week ? I remember reading something similar in Tyler Hamilton's book where he was asked to ride after withdrawing blood and he could barely match the backmarker's pace in the peloton. Maybe the same has happened to Sagan ?

Disgusting post, disgusting posters.

This section looks like a big pile of sh*t. Go away freaks, you do not enjoy cycling.

 

[roundabout]

I won't be discussing Slovak economics and politics, only want to say that I'm sure that a family with 3 kids owing a grocery shop in Slovakia cannot afford a doping program for one of them lasting long enough to get noticed and signed by a pro team.

What makes me believe Sagan is top talent and clean(ish) even today is his brother. Juraj could be the nicest guy in the world, but probably got a contract only because Liqui wanted Peter at all costs. I don't believe that Peter has something that works so well, and wouldn't share it with his bro. And Juraj's results since 2010 show that he has to be as clean as whistle

We should consult Prudencio Indurain on this one.

 

[Panda Claws]

could Sagan's poor performance be from possibly withdrawing blood after his visit to Spain last week ? I remember reading something similar in Tyler Hamilton's book where he was asked to ride after withdrawing blood and he could barely match the backmarker's pace in the peloton. Maybe the same has happened to Sagan ?

Sagan was still 36th or so.

He would also know the complications of extracting blood and thus not do it before AGR?

 

[Pandora]

could Sagan's poor performance be from possibly withdrawing blood after his visit to Spain last week ? I remember reading something similar in Tyler Hamilton's book where he was asked to ride after withdrawing blood and he could barely match the backmarker's pace in the peloton. Maybe the same has happened to Sagan ?

Didn't he win over Gilbert on Wednesday? This happened after Madrid, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[hiero2]

Ok, sorry, you seem to have more insight than I thought. But still, Czechoslovakia was slightly different - not too different from Poland and Hungary, but very different from the rest of the countries you mentioned. Especially Yugoslavia is completely unrelated since (despite having communism) it wasn't even part of the Eastern Bloc and the instability in 90s was caused by ethnic tensions, not economic. The transition from planned economy to capitalism was easier in Czechoslovakia than anywhere else (well, not counting East Germany since they were helped by West Germany) and both countries have enjoyed a steady economic growth every year after the revolution. I don't really think there was any instability directly after the fall of communism and definitely not when Sagan was growing up.

But we are getting waaay off topic.

I revealed it myself in my previous post.

Thank you. I'm not so sure it is that far off topic. One of the talking points AGAINST Sagan being doped is his consistency over the years. While he could certainly be a top talent anyway, and only be doping now that he is pro, to some of us that does not seem to fit very well.

As for where you were posting from - I felt it might be useful to validate what you had said - that you were from Slovakia. It gives credence to your first-hand knowledge.

I won't be discussing Slovak economics and politics, only want to say that I'm sure that a family with 3 kids owing a grocery shop in Slovakia cannot afford a doping program for one of them lasting long enough to get noticed and signed by a pro team.

What makes me believe Sagan is top talent and clean(ish) even today is his brother. Juraj could be the nicest guy in the world, but probably got a contract only because Liqui wanted Peter at all costs. I don't believe that Peter has something that works so well, and wouldn't share it with his bro. And Juraj's results since 2010 show that he has to be as clean as whistle

Pandora, you don't have to answer, but are you also from Slovakia? Do you have first hand knowledge that Sagan's family owns a simple grocery? What you tell us about his brother is interesting. Good info, thank you.

 

[Caruut]

Riders at a much lower level than Juraj have doped hard before. We have literally no idea about what Juraj's clean base level is, so we have no idea if he's doping or not. As such I think the conclusion about Peter doesn't really follow. Plenty of riders have siblings less talented than Juraj - are we going to suggest that Phil isn't doping just because Jerome Gilbert doesn't challenge for Ardennes classics? Juraj might not be, but assuming he isn't and following the logic to Peter not having a special secret doesn't work.

 

[TANK91]

now that is a sprinter climbing!!!!!!

every1 else is an amateur compared to good old 80 Kg Candido doing this on a 28km long climb (over 1 hour effort) with grades up to 17% in some parts

1. JIMENEZ SANCHEZ Eladio KGZ 4h14'48" 25
2. TONDO VOLPINI Xavier MAI 13" 15
3. BARBOSA Candido Joaquim Venda Moreira LSE 55" 10
4. GUERRA GARCIA Hector LSE 55" 5
5. BERNABEU ARMENGOL Vicente David FTV 01'43" 3
6. AZEVEDO Jose Bento Carvalho SLB 02'09" 0
7. SEVILLA RIBERA Oscar REG 03'03" 0
8. RODRIGUES Jose Carlos Silva ASC 03'28" 0
9. CARDOSO Pedro Antonio Alves MAI 03'28" 0
10. BLANCO RODRIGUEZ David DUJ 03'28" 0

Dude could you tell me what race this was I will watch o youtube.

 

[Pandora]

Pandora, you don't have to answer, but are you also from Slovakia?

No, I'm not. But I've been there lot of times since, say, 1992-1993, and have a pretty good idea how common people live there and what you can and cannot afford with an average income. It is interesting to follow how the country has been changing since my first visit.

Do you have first hand knowledge that Sagan's family owns a simple grocery? What you tell us about his brother is interesting. Good info, thank you.

I don't know anything first hand about him and his family, don't know them and have never been to Žilina, but remembered the info from his wiki page that says: "Sagan is the youngest child among three brothers and a sister. He was brought up by his sister as his parents spent most of the day taking care of a small grocery shop they own in his hometown". BTW, there are 4 kids, and not 3, as I thought. A family with 4 kids, living in Slovakia and owning a grocery store... no, I cannot imagine it can afford to buy PEDs, at least not anything sophisticated that would transform him in such a prodigy. When Peter got his first sponsor, situation could have changed, but I don't know when it happened.

I said only my opinion on his brother. Obviously there could be different explanation: Juraj not beeing ambitious or being more scrupulous, dope doesn't work for him, Peter is spoiled youngest child and therefore selfish etc.

And yes, that comment on Indurain's brother is intriguing, I didn't know that. It made me think...

 

[bissib]

I won't be discussing Slovak economics and politics, only want to say that I'm sure that a family with 3 kids owing a grocery shop in Slovakia cannot afford a doping program for one of them lasting long enough to get noticed and signed by a pro team.

Apparently, 4. Peter (23), Juraj (24), Danka (33), Milan (34).