How The Pro's Defeat The Anti Doping System

[Carboncrank]

As for doped home run hitters, yes, it exists but I contend that the dope makes individual stats bigger and better but that the outcome is not so different as it would have been without dope. The dope extends careers, but really that just means keeping a player that would take the doper's place on the bench. That's my theory. It's a work in progress. I reserve the right to change my mind or be wrong.

.

Oh, how I wish that was true.
I lived in San Jose and was in the stands a dozen or more times a year at Oakland coliseum 86 thru 89 and saw Mark Macquire hit 49hr as a rookie. He was a big guy through college. He's 6'5 and was strong from the get go. I wasn't surprised to find that Canseco had doped, he was always the type, bar fights, women trouble, 150 mph speeding ticket, gun in his car egomaniac but Mark was this really nice, stable guy that talked to the fans a lot and took any extra time in batting practice any time he could get. (i was almost always there in time for batting practice) I thought that maybe, just maybe he didn't.

He did. Then there's Bonds. Even his head got bigger.. really.

I hate to say it but steroids don't just make you stronger, they make you better. All your senses are enhanced including eyesight and reaction time is incredible. You an enhanced human being. That's the catch. Once you experience being super human that how do you go back to being regular?

I could have told you from the day the Chronicle story came out that you'd never see Barry Bonds swing a bat again. It would have been proof in itself.

I have huge respect for Jason Giambi who suffered through a year of his body adjusting to not being so enhanced and while he was never as good as the enhanced version he was good enough to be in the show, and he could live with it.

I wish I never saw the recent Big Mac interviews. I wish I could erase the image of him still trying to make it sound like it wasn't that bad.

 

[Carboncrank]

Wonder why the doper changes his numbers, then took them down? Something to hide?

Here ya go ol' buddy.

http://cdn-community2.livestrong.co...c981f7be-e46c-4245-aa9d-d61ae110a264.Full.jpg

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Here ya go ol' buddy.

http://cdn-community2.livestrong.co...c981f7be-e46c-4245-aa9d-d61ae110a264.Full.jpg

Are they the first set of numbers or the second set?

(or indeed Jackhammers own 'Private Set")?

 

[Race Radio]

Here ya go ol' buddy.

http://cdn-community2.livestrong.co...c981f7be-e46c-4245-aa9d-d61ae110a264.Full.jpg

Funny how that 2/4/09 number dropped down from 45.8 to 43.1. Why do you think that happened?

Strange how you can no longer find a link to this on the Livestrong site, could you show us where it went?

http://www.livestrong.com/

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Funny how that 2/4/09 number dropped down from 45.8 to 43.1. Why do you think that happened?

Strange how you can no longer find a link to this on the Livestrong site, could you show us where it went?

http://www.livestrong.com/

What... how dare you, Lance is a man of integrity... from the Live strong website...

When Lance announced he would return to professional cycling in 2009, he made it clear it would not just be about winning bike races. This time, he would be racing with very different goals in mind. Most important, he will use the cycling season and the international focus on the sport to fight cancer and promote the LIVESTRONG Global Cancer Campaign. Together, Lance and his Foundation will work to support the 25 million people living with cancer around the world by challenging governments, organizations, and individuals around the world to work together to take action to fight the causes of cancer, to raise awareness and eliminate the stigma associated with the disease.

Lance also announced he would return to the sport with complete transparency to eliminate any possible question that he is competing clean. Doping has plagued the sport of cycling for years, and Lance himself has fought unfounded accusations throughout his career. It is unfortunate that whenever any athlete is successful there will be some who believe that the success is sufficient grounds for suspicion of doping. With the help of his management and cycling team, Lance worked to develop a state-of-the-art comprehensive anti-doping program, in addition to the standard testing requirements from USADA, WADA and the UCI, to show his commitment to the sport and to racing clean.

Since he announced his return to cycling, Lance has been tested 17 times all over the world, including in Austin, Texas; Nice, France; Adelaide, Australia and Santa Rosa, California as he trains and travels to encourage collaboration and spread the word about the new global cancer awareness campaign. Lance has requested detailed data on all of these tests from USADA and WADA. Over the next six months, as Lance trains and competes in the 2009 cycling season, he will be subjected to sample collection and testing an average of more than once every three days. All of the urine tests to-date have been negative and we have provided the details of seven blood tests by Dr. Damsgaard and the UCI below.

Lance will be tested ongoing by esteemed anti-doping specialist Dr. Rasmus Damsgaard.

We at LIVESTRONG.COM are pleased to host the medical data from these tests, and will be updating it as often as we receive the data from the respective agencies. By posting these results online, we hope not only to provide that element of transparency that Lance envisioned, but also help to inform and educate our community about these tests and what they mean.

To start off, here is a glossary of terms, which will explain the various elements that anti-doping authorities measure and analyze.

Hemoglobin (g/dL): Hemoglobin is a protein that carries oxygen. It is primarily found in the red blood cells. The concentration of hemoglobin in the body in a non-trained background population is set at 14.2 g/dL. The normal range of such a population is large and includes values above 17 g/dl. In comparison, professional cyclists have an average hemoglobin concentration of 14.8 g/dL (range 12-17.3). A variation in hemoglobin concentration of 7% (range 6-21%) is observed in cyclists. An upper limit is set at 17%g/dl.

Hematocrit (%): Hematocrit is the ratio between the red blood cells and the total blood volume. In males, hematocrit ranges from 40-45% with values above 52% in healthy subjects.

Reticulocytes (%): Reticulocytes are immature red blood cells and the number in % depicts the ratio between the immature and mature red blood cells. The normal range is 0.2-2%. Values below or beyond are considered suspicious. Reticulocytes are highly sensitive for blood manipulations and increase if a blood loss or EPO use is present and decrease with blood transfusions and previous EPO use.

OFF-score: The OFF-score is an equation containing hemoglobin and reticulocytes. By combining the two variables it is possible to determine whether an athlete has used EPO or even performed (autologous) blood transfusions procedures prior to the test. The upper limit set by the UCI is 133.

OFF and Hb z-score: Longitudinal monitoring of athletes' blood profiles help detect blood doping and warrant the exclusion from competition of athletes with aberrant variations in some hematological values. OFF and Hb z-scores are equations that describe the variation in OFF score and hemoglobin in each athlete by including all the measurements conducted on the athlete. If the z-scores are higher than 3.09 or less than -3.09 it indicates blood manipulations.







We encourage you to check back as we continue to post data to the site. And as always, check out On Tour with Lance for insider blogs, behind-the-scenes photos and videos as Lance makes history in 2009.

 

[Ferminal]

Funny, I don't see Alberto's blood values anywhere?

Dr. Mas. was correct I think.

No doubt his values are just as (or more) incriminating as Armstrong's, but Alberto doesn't have this image which he needs to feed the public. Armstrong came back and promised complete transparency, all part of painting him as the honest Anglo hero.

Armstrong runs a campaign of active denial whereas AC's approach is the more traditional "I never use drugs they are bad, next question".

As far as Heier, wasn't his main argument that values are unreliable because of inconsistencies in the level of hydration? So in other words, Lance was over hydrated in the tests leading up to that one around the 2nd rest day, which he happened to be dehydrated on? "Too low" refers to being too hydrated. Basically he's saying that the whole bio passport is useless until they can get constant fluid levels.

 

[flicker]

Why has this thread degraded into yet another Lance thread? Oh yeah the universe revolves around Lance. Sorry I forgot.

 

[Oldman]

Why has this thread degraded into yet another Lance thread? Oh yeah the universe revolves around Lance. Sorry I forgot.

Actually today it can be about little Ricardo. I think we found where he was hiding the CERA...

 

[Carboncrank]

We encourage you to check back as we continue to post data to the site. And as always, check out On Tour with Lance for insider blogs, behind-the-scenes photos and videos as Lance makes history in 2009.[/I]

His attempt to be transparent and post his values ends up being more proof that with all things regarding Lance, no good deed goes unpunished.

No matter what he does, it will never be enough to please you.

Like race radio mentioning his crit changes from 45.8 to 43.1 on 2/4/09. They did not. I don't know why he claims they did but they did not. It went from 41.1 or 1/16 to 43.1. But even if they had it doesn't mean anything. The values were posted to prove they were legal. All that happened was posting them gave a new hobby to thousands of his detractors. Like that glorified lab assistant Mørkeberg.

People complain all the time about politicians that can talk endlessly and say nothing. This is an example of why that is. He posts his values and it gets used against him. He's frank in interviews and it gets used against him.
Politicians talk the way they do because if you say nothing, someone can't come behind you and claim you really meant something else.

 

[Digger]

His attempt to be transparent and post his values ends up being more proof that with all things regarding Lance, no good deed goes unpunished.

No matter what he does, it will never be enough to please you.

Like race radio mentioning his crit changes from 45.8 to 43.1 on 2/4/09. They did not. I don't know why he claims they did but they did not. It went from 41.1 or 1/16 to 43.1. But even if they had it doesn't mean anything. The values were posted to prove they were legal. All that happened was posting them gave a new hobby to thousands of his detractors. Like that glorified lab assistant Mørkeberg.

People complain all the time about politicians that can talk endlessly and say nothing. This is an example of why that is. He posts his values and it gets used against him. He's frank in interviews and it gets used against him.
Politicians talk the way they do because if you say nothing, someone can't come behind you and claim you really meant something else.

He changed his values. Why change them?

Secondly, why do you say that about 'Morkeberg'? Based on what? That he dared cast suspicion?

Also, why you think he dumped Catlin?

 

[Carboncrank]

As far as Heier, wasn't his main argument that values are unreliable because of inconsistencies in the level of hydration? So in other words, Lance was over hydrated in the tests leading up to that one around the 2nd rest day, which he happened to be dehydrated on? "Too low" refers to being too hydrated. Basically he's saying that the whole bio passport is useless until they can get constant fluid levels.

No, he did not say that.

 

[Carboncrank]

He changed his values. Why change them?

Secondly, why do you say that about 'Morkeberg'? Based on what? That he dared cast suspicion?

I just don't find his credentials very impressive. He's not a Phd, He has his name on one reseach paper concerning Tour de France riders he now wants to claim Lance was dirty because data doesn't fit conclusions he draws from that one study. (one of the other 6 authors in that study now questions the ethics of one of the other authors)

Science isn't made out of one study.

Lance was nieve to think there's ANYTHING he could possibly do that some people couldn't twist around into something it's not.

Why not publish passport data for all riders?

Same reason. Endless, mindless, and non-stop second guessing.

 

[Anonymous]

Option 1 - LA was naive in thinking he could post blood values to prove he was clean without the world questioning them.

Option 2 - LA was arrogant enough to think he could post selected blood values while blood doping in a false attempt to "prove" he was clean.

Which one sounds more like LA? Naive or arrogant?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I just don't find his credentials very impressive. He's not a Phd, He has his name on one reseach paper concerning Tour de France riders he now wants to claim Lance was dirty because data doesn't fit conclusions he draws from that one study. (one of the other 6 authors in that study now questions the ethics of one of the other authors)

Science isn't made out of one study.

Lance was nieve to think there's ANYTHING he could possibly do that some people couldn't twist around into something it's not.

Why not publish passport data for all riders?

Same reason. Endless, mindless, and non-stop second guessing.

Wrong....

*Mr Jakob Morkeberg, Msc (DK)

Mr Morkeberg is an Exercise Physiologist and PhD student attached to the research unit ‘BRAIN’ at Bispebjerg Hospital, Denmark. He has been a co-worker on the well-recognised anti-doping programmes for different professional cycling teams. His research interests include various kinds of blood doping, including autologous blood transfusions and erythropoietin.

....And he never claimed Lance was 'dirty' - he offered two other possibilities for the values, dehydration and/or diarrhea.

 

[Race Radio]

His attempt to be transparent and post his values ends up being more proof that with all things regarding Lance, no good deed goes unpunished.

No matter what he does, it will never be enough to please you.

Like race radio mentioning his crit changes from 45.8 to 43.1 on 2/4/09. They did not. I don't know why he claims they did but they did not.

They did.

When Armstrong first released his numbers the Hct Value for 2/4/09 was 45.8. This was a questionable value as it was during a period of heavy racing and training when a normal persons Hct would drop.

When he released his number a second time he changed the Hct number from 2/4/09 to 43.1.

Wonder why?

 

[Race Radio]

I just don't find his credentials very impressive. He's not a Phd, He has his name on one reseach paper concerning Tour de France riders he now wants to claim Lance was dirty because data doesn't fit conclusions he draws from that one study.

He received his Phd. His dissertation was titled "Detection of Autologous Blood Transfusions via Analyses of Peripheral Blood Samples" He has written 10 peer-reviewed papers on blood doping within the past three years, and has completed a Master’s thesis entitled "Autologous Blood Doping"

He was backed up by Bo Belhage who has written 53 publications; of these, 41 are peer-reviewed. He was also involved in the running of the CSC and Astana anti-doping programmes and has been involved in science for 21 years.

Nice try, but I will believe these guys over some guy on the internet that is proven wrong daily.

 

[lean mean &green]

oh, that what now...

I often read this board and rarely post but there’s something that I HAVE to say and it might be nice to shift this thread back to the original topic. (BTW the only threads in this forum that “work” are ones that never mention Armstrong)

I read the blog. I have studied some related topics and appreciate the links/graphs related to mechanical engineering but there is little or no useful new information about defeating doping controls to anyone who regularly visits the clinic.

I was born and raised in south-central Pennsylvania, USA. I’m extremely proud of this background, it’s a great place to ride bike. I now live in the Philadelphia suburbs. It’s important because Joe Papp had raced frequently in this area for years. Joe is a little before my time but I know people who have raced against Joe. I know the people he has directly cheated. Joe Papp raced and won a beautiful race a few blocks from my house in 2005. At the time the little I knew of Joe was that he had a checkered past but he was racing again so I assumed he must now be clean. I’ll admit that like a lot of people I was naïve then. This race has blossomed into a fantastic regional event. The community has gotten behind this criterium 100%. There was a crowd of thousands last year and if there is an economic downturn and lack of sponsorships you’d never know it by the turnout in 2009. Many in attendance probably don’t care if the winner is a liar and a cheat because the race just gives them an opportunity to get out of the house on a summer night and bump into people they haven’t seen in months or maybe even years. It even appeals to me in this way a little bit too. Many in attendance do care tho. Local pros, amateur racers/juniors, and real racing fans who are also numerous do care. They were cheated that summer night by Joe. I watched and believed and was cheated that summer night by Joe too.

Maybe it’s different when it’s close to you but I don’t forgive him and probably never will. The way some people in the forum respond to him, praising him for coming clean is beyond me. Thanks for coming clean but just saying you’re sorry doesn’t cut it for me. Justice will be served when he benefits in absolutely no way from cycling. He should not have a career as a celebrity confessor/blogger/author/speaker because of a cycling career that was a hoax. Can we allow a dishonest racing career to be parlayed into a successful career as a blogger? You admitted your mistake, you’ve told us everything that’s at all helpful (not much), now…

…GO AWAY. Get a regular job. Try working for a living. Contribute something positive to society outside of cycling. If he’s already doing that then good for him. I hope he's able to resolve his health concerns. Everyone deserves a second chance and best of luck to you in those endeavors but you have no right to participate in this beautiful sport anymore let alone benefit from it. If you want to coach cycling too bad unless you offer those services for free, no sponsorships, no adverts. Is he interested in donating services? Somehow I doubt it.

“You leave town tonight, right now, and when you're gone you STAY gone, or you'll BE gone, you lost all your LA privileges”

 

[Escarabajo]

...

…GO AWAY. Get a regular job. Try working for a living. Contribute something positive to society outside of cycling. If he’s already doing that then good for him. I hope he's able to resolve his health concerns. Everyone deserves a second chance and best of luck to you in those endeavors but you have no right to participate in this beautiful sport anymore let alone benefit from it. If you want to coach cycling too bad unless you offer those services for free, no sponsorships, no adverts. Is he interested in donating services? Somehow I doubt it.

“You leave town tonight, right now, and when you're gone you STAY gone, or you'll BE gone, you lost all your LA privileges”

Sorry, but I disagree with you.

If he loves the sport, he can open a bike shop as far as I am concerned. And if he cheated and come clean and feel bad about it and want to actively help clean the sport, so what is wrong with that. I consider myself an honest person, but everybody deserves a second chance. Unless you are a psychopath who have killed people or have committed a bad crime, it is not too late to come clean and restore your life.

I appreciate your opinion though.

Note: I don't want to spoil your party around your town but I doubt Joe was the last dirty winner. Probably the last one that has come clean.

 

[Anonymous]

I often read this board and rarely post but there’s something that I HAVE to say and it might be nice to shift this thread back to the original topic. (BTW the only threads in this forum that “work” are ones that never mention Armstrong)

I read the blog. I have studied some related topics and appreciate the links/graphs related to mechanical engineering but there is little or no useful new information about defeating doping controls to anyone who regularly visits the clinic.

I was born and raised in south-central Pennsylvania, USA. I’m extremely proud of this background, it’s a great place to ride bike. I now live in the Philadelphia suburbs. It’s important because Joe Papp had raced frequently in this area for years. Joe is a little before my time but I know people who have raced against Joe. I know the people he has directly cheated. Joe Papp raced and won a beautiful race a few blocks from my house in 2005. At the time the little I knew of Joe was that he had a checkered past but he was racing again so I assumed he must now be clean. I’ll admit that like a lot of people I was naïve then. This race has blossomed into a fantastic regional event. The community has gotten behind this criterium 100%. There was a crowd of thousands last year and if there is an economic downturn and lack of sponsorships you’d never know it by the turnout in 2009. Many in attendance probably don’t care if the winner is a liar and a cheat because the race just gives them an opportunity to get out of the house on a summer night and bump into people they haven’t seen in months or maybe even years. It even appeals to me in this way a little bit too. Many in attendance do care tho. Local pros, amateur racers/juniors, and real racing fans who are also numerous do care. They were cheated that summer night by Joe. I watched and believed and was cheated that summer night by Joe too.

Maybe it’s different when it’s close to you but I don’t forgive him and probably never will. The way some people in the forum respond to him, praising him for coming clean is beyond me. Thanks for coming clean but just saying you’re sorry doesn’t cut it for me. Justice will be served when he benefits in absolutely no way from cycling. He should not have a career as a celebrity confessor/blogger/author/speaker because of a cycling career that was a hoax. Can we allow a dishonest racing career to be parlayed into a successful career as a blogger? You admitted your mistake, you’ve told us everything that’s at all helpful (not much), now…

…GO AWAY. Get a regular job. Try working for a living. Contribute something positive to society outside of cycling. If he’s already doing that then good for him. I hope he's able to resolve his health concerns. Everyone deserves a second chance and best of luck to you in those endeavors but you have no right to participate in this beautiful sport anymore let alone benefit from it. If you want to coach cycling too bad unless you offer those services for free, no sponsorships, no adverts. Is he interested in donating services? Somehow I doubt it.

“You leave town tonight, right now, and when you're gone you STAY gone, or you'll BE gone, you lost all your LA privileges”

Hey, I found a picture of you:

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/beachbumpatrick/***.jpg

 

[Race Radio]

I often read this board and rarely post but there’s something that I HAVE to say and it might be nice to shift this thread back to the original topic. (BTW the only threads in this forum that “work” are ones that never mention Armstrong)

I read the blog. I have studied some related topics and appreciate the links/graphs related to mechanical engineering but there is little or no useful new information about defeating doping controls to anyone who regularly visits the clinic.

I was born and raised in south-central Pennsylvania, USA. I’m extremely proud of this background, it’s a great place to ride bike. I now live in the Philadelphia suburbs. It’s important because Joe Papp had raced frequently in this area for years. Joe is a little before my time but I know people who have raced against Joe. I know the people he has directly cheated. Joe Papp raced and won a beautiful race a few blocks from my house in 2005. At the time the little I knew of Joe was that he had a checkered past but he was racing again so I assumed he must now be clean. I’ll admit that like a lot of people I was naïve then. This race has blossomed into a fantastic regional event. The community has gotten behind this criterium 100%. There was a crowd of thousands last year and if there is an economic downturn and lack of sponsorships you’d never know it by the turnout in 2009. Many in attendance probably don’t care if the winner is a liar and a cheat because the race just gives them an opportunity to get out of the house on a summer night and bump into people they haven’t seen in months or maybe even years. It even appeals to me in this way a little bit too. Many in attendance do care tho. Local pros, amateur racers/juniors, and real racing fans who are also numerous do care. They were cheated that summer night by Joe. I watched and believed and was cheated that summer night by Joe too.

Maybe it’s different when it’s close to you but I don’t forgive him and probably never will. The way some people in the forum respond to him, praising him for coming clean is beyond me. Thanks for coming clean but just saying you’re sorry doesn’t cut it for me. Justice will be served when he benefits in absolutely no way from cycling. He should not have a career as a celebrity confessor/blogger/author/speaker because of a cycling career that was a hoax. Can we allow a dishonest racing career to be parlayed into a successful career as a blogger? You admitted your mistake, you’ve told us everything that’s at all helpful (not much), now…

…GO AWAY. Get a regular job. Try working for a living. Contribute something positive to society outside of cycling. If he’s already doing that then good for him. I hope he's able to resolve his health concerns. Everyone deserves a second chance and best of luck to you in those endeavors but you have no right to participate in this beautiful sport anymore let alone benefit from it. If you want to coach cycling too bad unless you offer those services for free, no sponsorships, no adverts. Is he interested in donating services? Somehow I doubt it.

“You leave town tonight, right now, and when you're gone you STAY gone, or you'll BE gone, you lost all your LA privileges”

If every rider who ever doped was not allowed to participate in the sport the professional sport would not exist.

 

[flicker]

I hate to say this but from 2 sources I heard Greg LeMond enhanced.

From another source I heard the only great American cyclist who was clean was Andy Hamsted. I talked with an American 6 day rider from the 30s his drug of choice was bennies.

That is why when people point the finger at Hamilton,Landis,Armstrong my first instinct is to wonder if the finger pointer is gaining financially,trying to make someone else look bad ,to cover their own doping transgressions, or are old grey and fat, have nothing better to do, or just crave the limelight.

 

[lean mean &green]

If he loves the sport, he can open a bike shop as far as I am concerned. And if he cheated and come clean and feel bad about it and want to actively help clean the sport, so what is wrong with that. I consider myself an honest person, but everybody deserves a second chance. Unless you are a psychopath who have killed people or have committed a bad crime, it is not too late to come clean and restore your life.

I appreciate your opinion though.

Note: I don't want to spoil your party around your town but I doubt Joe was the last dirty winner. Probably the last one that has come clean.

i said i WAS naive.

feel free to shop at joe's bike shop but be careful of the department store bikes repainted to look like pinarello's.

 

[Anonymous]

i said i WAS naive.

feel free to shop at joe's bike shop but be careful of the department store bikes repainted to look like pinarello's.

Its funny, I'll bet there are some skeletons in your closet nobody knows about. Joe had to deal with a public revelation of his, and he took it like a man. I'd be willing to bet you would not be so manly were the world to know your secrets. Douchebag.

 

[Anonymous]

feel free to shop at joe's bike shop but be careful of the department store bikes repainted to look like pinarello's.

Really? You're going to go down that road? Come on now. He's done the right thing since he got caught - been honest, open, and is trying to educate people on doping. If anyone deserves a second chance, it's him. Or would you have preferred he did a Vino or Ricco? I realise you're angry but you aren't doing yourself any favours with comments like that.

Edit: p.s. I also think you'll find Mr Papp has suffered much much more due to his drug use than anyone he beat at your local crit did.

 

[lean mean &green]

If every rider who ever doped was not allowed to participate in the sport the professional sport would not exist.

joe does not post anonymously to direct traffic back to his website/blog. blogging didn't even exist until recently. some people make a decent living at it. the landscape has changed. that, in combination with a tell-all book, coaching, some public speaking engagements, and i'll bet you could carve out a nice living from the notariety you gained by cheating. i'm uncomfortable with that.