How to Eliminate Another Contador Schleck One.Two

[boardhanger]

Andrea Tafi: Roubaix '99 and Lombardy '96. In fact, he was going so fast up the hills in Lombardy, he had to hit the brakes on one of the turns. Quite comical in retrospect. But then again, Mapei had the best trainers, doctors, etc.

edit: I personally think Cancellara could win any classic he rides, provided issues related to "The Clinic" don't cause any problems.

I remember Tafi as an outright domestique riding tempo in Flanders, Roubaix etc. Then he was winning them. That was then this is now. Even today when i'm riding in a cross or head win I think off him and his style during his domestique days. I admitt it impressed me!!

 

[karlboss]

Agree with that karlboss,how about itt all downhill for 80 kms?I know im dreaming but dont wake me yet.......

80km downhill, Everest must have a few switchbacks. In Indurain's day there were some seriously long ITTs and commonly combined over 100km. I enjoy the years you look at the course and start to wonder if it will suit TTers or climbers. Pantani vs Ullrich etc. We may see Cancellara make the change if over 100km ITT is offered.

 

[blaxland]

80km downhill, Everest must have a few switchbacks. In Indurain's day there were some seriously long ITTs and commonly combined over 100km. I enjoy the years you look at the course and start to wonder if it will suit TTers or climbers. Pantani vs Ullrich etc. We may see Cancellara make the change if over 100km ITT is offered.

Those days where awesome.Remember the TTT 100kms?ridden by only 4 riders if i remember correctly.

 

[boardhanger]

80km downhill, Everest must have a few switchbacks. In Indurain's day there were some seriously long ITTs and commonly combined over 100km. I enjoy the years you look at the course and start to wonder if it will suit TTers or climbers. Pantani vs Ullrich etc. We may see Cancellara make the change if over 100km ITT is offered.

How about no TT? Or uber short TT with split stage etc? The specialization of racing needs to be stoped or at least challenged by the course mappers. C'mon designers the riders have found your weakness in predictaliblty.

 

[blaxland]

How about no TT? Or uber short TT with split stage etc? The specialization of racing needs to be stoped or at least challenged by the course mappers. C'mon designers the riders have found your weakness in predictaliblty.

Like the idea of split stages.The TT in morning then Criterium at night...

 

[boardhanger]

Like the idea of split stages.The TT in morning then Criterium at night...

Why not a crit? Excellent idea.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

...In Indurain's day there were some seriously long ITTs and commonly combined over 100km...

More like 200km total. If you include the prologue and TTT, here is what we had during the Indurain years:

1991 - 176km
1992 - 201km
1993 - 196km
1994 - 193km
1995 - 174km

Compare this to the last three years:

2008 - 83km
2009 - 95km
2010 - 61km

Imagine if in 2011 we had a course like 1992? I would venture to guess we would be less likely to see a Contador-Schleck 1-2, unless they threw in some serious mountain stages, and personally I'd like to see a Tour with some long TT's again. As long as they threw in at least one massively epic mountain stage with an HC MTF to balance it out.

 

[La Pandera]

Is not that Contador is going to work for Cancellara in those races... the thing is that Cancellara is going to need good riders (not all the riders that Contador is going to need but some) for those races and maybe they are going to be a little bit tired for the moment that Contador is going to need them... could be a possibility...

I don't mean that Contador is going to work for Cancellara but He can work for Porte in some races... I don't know... I'm just managing some scenarios...

And I think that Cancellara can win LBL... LBL is a bingo... you just need to be in the winner break...

Riis has shown that he is quite astute at juggling the balls of the classics and grand tour aspirations and still finding success. This shouldn't be an issue at all.

 

[La Pandera]

But last year he won the Tour de Suisse and showed in Mendrisio he definately has what it takes to win hilly classics.[/B] So it is not a stretch to suggest he has a good chance at Giro Lombardia Liege Bastogne Liege and maybe Flech Walone, Amstel Gold if he goes for it. This might conflict with Contador or it might (like this year with vino) give conti a chance to do cancellara a favour and give Cancellara added motivation to help Contador in gts.

...and give them multiple options in the Ardennes classics. If Cancellara's plan doesn't work out or vice versa,

 

[gregrowlerson]

80km downhill, Everest must have a few switchbacks. In Indurain's day there were some seriously long ITTs and commonly combined over 100km. I enjoy the years you look at the course and start to wonder if it will suit TTers or climbers. Pantani vs Ullrich etc. We may see Cancellara make the change if over 100km ITT is offered.

Everest......HAHA!

I've thought for a while now that the tour is far too suited for the climbers instead of the time trial specialists. What's the deal with only having one proper time trial?

I've only been interested in the Tour since the Armstrong era. Thanks guys for the info on the Indurain era and all the TT km's. That is a huge difference to today. Would love to see a tour with maybe 30 km TTT (even though I'd prefer it not to be in at all), 10 km prologue, 25 km TT, 25 km TT (including a category 1 climb) and a 60 km fairly flat TT to finish off.

 

[boardhanger]

Everest......HAHA!

I've thought for a while now that the tour is far too suited for the climbers instead of the time trial specialists. What's the deal with only having one proper time trial?

I've only been interested in the Tour since the Armstrong era. Thanks guys for the info on the Indurain era and all the TT km's. That is a huge difference to today. Would love to see a tour with maybe 30 km TTT (even though I'd prefer it not to be in at all), 10 km prologue, 25 km TT, 25 km TT (including a category 1 climb) and a 60 km fairly flat TT to finish off.

LeTour goes through different metamorphoses throughtout the times. depending on many factors and directors. TT's were big in the 90''s. Split stages in the 80's etc I like this current director Prudhome. He seems to be not afraid of creating interesting stages. The last director was pretty predictable with his style.

 

[Quaker]

How to beat AC/AS...

"What am I on??? I'm on my bike 6 hours a day...."

 

[El Pistolero]

Cancellara wants all monuments. I have said earlier in this thread that Contador and Cancellara will work as a partnership because Contador doesnt do MSR RVV and PR . However, Cancellara has won all of them and wants to target LBL and GL and perhaps even FW and AG. You say Cancellara isnt good enough. Perhaps. But then there are people propping him up for GTs. In my opinion he will never top 10 a gt. But the transformation to LBL, GL contender is a lot easier.

No offence, but i think this is another example of people looking at season 2010 and making too many generalizations from it (like saying ebh has lost it, Kreuziger has lost it, Sagan will win everything etc) In fact i think Cancellara has already been there. Sure this season his climbing has been poor. He peaked for the RVV PR.


But last year he won the Tour de Suisse and showed in Mendrisio he definately has what it takes to win hilly classics. So it is not a stretch to suggest he has a good chance at Giro Lombardia Liege Bastogne Liege and maybe Flech Walone, Amstel Gold if he goes for it. This might conflict with Contador or it might (like this year with vino) give conti a chance to do cancellara a favour and give Cancellara added motivation to help Contador in gts.

No, it's by looking at his entire career and he just can't win it. If he wants to change his riding style then he's giving up his chances to win RvV and Paris-Roubaix. For what? Giro di Lombardia?

Conti will want to win LBL and FW as well sometime in his career, he doesn't need to give up anything for Cancellara. It's the one with the best legs that will take the win in a race like that. Their team is big enough to support 2 leaders in a race like that.

His Tour de Suisse victory means nothing. He won that in the time trials.

 

[The Hitch]

If he wants to change his riding style then he's giving up his chances to win RvV and Paris-Roubaix. For what? Giro di Lombardia?

Conti will want to win LBL and FW as well sometime in his career, he doesn't need to give up anything for Cancellara. It's the one with the best legs that will take the win in a race like that. Their team is big enough to support 2 leaders in a race like that.

Hes already won PR twice, RVV once and MSR once. Now he wants to try the other 2. He said this himself. Hes going for the monument sweep.

He is 30 years old. At his peak. in fact often people imrpove in climbing as they get into their 30's. Cancellara is already a decent enough climber especially in 1 day races.

No, it's by looking at his entire career and he just can't win it

What

Wow. I guess, we heard it here first.if you say Cancellara just cant win it, full stop, then what chance does he have.
I really dont see how by looking at the career of a tt specialist, who peaks for cobbled classics and tts, you can establish that they will never be a good climber.

Just like you cant say that Cadel will never win a classic because he only ever did Gts or that Wiggins will never top 5 in the tdf because he only ever rode the track, or that Richie Porte will never wear a leaders jersey at a grand tour because he was always a triathlete or etc etc etc. (hint all these things have been accomplished and required far far greater transformations)

But of course we are already a step further along the road with Cancellara because he has shown he can climb when he aims for it. Sure hes never going to do the mountains of a gt but hilly classics are totally different. Ignore Mendrisio if you wish, but he showed there he can climb. He showed (after being just about the only competitor who did the tt, and won it) that he has what it takes in difficult 1 day races. Ive seen far bigger transformations from riders than what it would take for Cancellara to go from 5th in mendrisio to 1st in lbl (in fact come to think of it, that wouldnt take much of a transformation at all).

His Tour de Suisse victory means nothing. He won that in the time trials.

I didnt think you could surpass yourself after reading the first 2 paragraphs, but this i must say is the piece de resistance.

Thats like saying Contadors tdf means nothing he won it in the time trials. Or Valverdes lbl means nothing - he won it in a sprint. etc etc. You have to get over the mountains, ffs. This year he couldnt manage it. A lot of people couldnt. Last year he had the form and did manage it.

How comes tt specialists arent winning every stage race which has a tt in it then????

 

[El Pistolero]

Because not everyone can ride a tt like Cancellara. He rode his nearest opponents MINUTES back in time trials alone in that race. Did you even watch that race? If you really think he can win the Giro di Lombardia or LBL after his performance at TdS in 2009 then you're not showing much respect to those two races. He didn't impress me at all in the TdS when things went uphill.

I said he can't win it how he is now. If he wants to change his riding style to have a chance of winning the two other monuments then that's his choice. He'll give up every change for winning PR,RvV and MSR though.

And even if he does change his riding style, I doubt he would be able to win Giro di Lombardia or LBL. Every good climber can participate in races like that. At the cobbled classics only people who are specialised in it have a good chance of winning it. And there are a lot more decent climbers then there are decent cobbled specialists.

And Contador won the Tour de France in 2007 in the mountains, the 2009 Tour de France in the mountains and in the time trial, his Vuelta 2008 in the mountains and his Giro was a weak one, but he still won it anyway. Contador always remained with the top climbers in all his 5 Grand Tour victories. Cancellara didn't remain with the best climbers in all the mountain stages at TdS. In fact I can only remember one stage. And guys like Monfort were in the same group as Cancellara finished in the queen stage of that TdS. Not exactly someone who's going to win something big any time soon.

Leipheimer can get over the mountains as well, doesn't mean he's going to win LBL or Giro di Lombardia =/

You're complaining that Contador doesn't share here, but you're not complaining about Cancellara? Contador has said so as well that he wants to win LBL and FW sometime in his career and unlike Cancellara he has proven himself in those races already. So why would Contador need to drop that for Cancellara who hasn't proved himself in the hilly classics yet?

Cancellara's dream of winning all 5 monuments is just that, a dream. Just like it's Contador's dream to win all 3 Grand Tours in one season.

 

[The Hitch]

Because not everyone can ride a tt like Cancellara. He rode his nearest opponents MINUTES back in time trials alone in that race. Did you even watch that race? If you really think he can win the Giro di Lombardia or LBL after his performance at TdS in 2009 then you're not showing much respect to those two races. He didn't impress me at all in the TdS when things went uphill.

I said he can't win it how he is now. If he wants to change his riding style to have a chance of winning the two other monuments then that's his choice. He'll give up every change for winning PR,RvV and MSR though.

And even if he does change his riding style, I doubt he would be able to win Giro di Lombardia or LBL. Every good climber can participate in races like that. At the cobbled classics only people who are specialised in it have a good chance of winning it. And there are a lot more decent climbers then there are decent cobbled specialists.

And Contador won the Tour de France in 2007 in the mountains, the 2009 Tour de France in the mountains and in the time trial, his Vuelta 2008 in the mountains and his Giro was a weak one, but he still won it anyway. Contador always remained with the top climbers in all his 5 Grand Tour victories. Cancellara didn't remain with the best climbers in all the mountain stages at TdS. In fact I can only remember one stage. And guys like Monfort were in the same group as Cancellara finished in the queen stage of that TdS. Not exactly someone who's going to win something big any time soon.

Leipheimer can get over the mountains as well, doesn't mean he's going to win LBL or Giro di Lombardia =/

You're complaining that Contador doesn't share here, but you're not complaining about Cancellara? Contador has said so as well that he wants to win LBL and FW sometime in his career and unlike Cancellara he has proven himself in those races already. So why would Contador need to drop that for Cancellara who hasn't proved himself in the hilly classics yet?

Cancellara's dream of winning all 5 monuments is just that, a dream. Just like it's Contador's dream to win all 3 Grand Tours in one season.

oh oh oh.
wait a second
wait just a second.

I am a big contador fan. You dont need to tell me how good a climber he is. My point was that he won the 2010 tour in the tt, and even that was a sarcastic rebuttle to your point that canc won the 2009 tds in the tt.

 

[boardhanger]

My point was that he won the 2010 tour in the tt, and even that was a sarcastic rebuttle to your point that canc won the 2009 tds in the tt.

.......and the attack chaingate style

 

[The Hitch]

You're complaining that Contador doesn't share here, but you're not complaining about Cancellara?
.

You are probably confusing me with someone esle.

Leipheimer can get over the mountains as well, doesn't mean he's going to win LBL or Giro di Lombardia =/

Alexander Vinokourov is similar to Leipheimer in climbing skill. Perhaps slightly better. He won Lbl this year.
Phillipe Gilber is definately not as good at getting over the mountains as Levi Leipheimer. He did win Giro Lombardia.

and dont even get me started on Alexander Kolobnev.

As Ryagas said. Lbl is a lot about luck. getting in the right break. Cancellara, if he prepares, can definately be strong enough, if he gets the luck.

 

[boardhanger]

You are probably confusing me with someone esle.



Alexander Vinokourov is similar to Leipheimer in climbing skill. Perhaps slightly better. He won Lbl this year.
Phillipe Gilber is definately not as good at getting over the mountains as Levi Leipheimer. He did win Giro Lombardia.

and dont even get me started on Alexander Kolobnev.

As Ryagas said. Lbl is a lot about luck. getting in the right break. Cancellara, if he prepares, can definately be strong enough, if he gets the luck.

LBL this year was sheer power from Vino. I haven't seen speed like that ever. Did you see it? Sheer class. They created the move and finished it. Levi not in that league at all.

 

[roundabout]

Let's get one thing straight

the people that were faster than Cancellara in 2009 tds uphill finishes were Martin and Cunego by 2 seconds, Kreutziger by 5 seconds and Kirchen by 7 seconds. The rest didn't gain a single second.

 

[ILovecycling]

Beat Contador and Andy ? emm...

remember Morzine Avoriaz this years Tour de France ?...Kreuziger attack - Contador counter att....than Gesink lead the group ...and than Samu Sanchez and Andy Schleck attack - and Contador couldnt follow them ...in the finish it was only 10 second but IT WAS GAP !!!

 

[El Pistolero]

You are probably confusing me with someone esle.



Alexander Vinokourov is similar to Leipheimer in climbing skill. Perhaps slightly better. He won Lbl this year.
Phillipe Gilber is definately not as good at getting over the mountains as Levi Leipheimer. He did win Giro Lombardia.

and dont even get me started on Alexander Kolobnev.

As Ryagas said. Lbl is a lot about luck. getting in the right break. Cancellara, if he prepares, can definately be strong enough, if he gets the luck.

Well, Giro di Lombardia is hilly and Gilbert is good in hilly races. And I definitely wouldn't call Leipheimer similiar to Vinokourov. And that's my point by the way, it would require a lot of luck to win. Would you give up extra wins at 3 monuments just so you can ride in the other 2 and hope for luck? Cancellara doesn't need luck to win the classics he has won so far, it's all his own power. Perhaps his MSR victory was a bit lucky though.

And I was probably confusing you with someone else, but this debate started because someone called Contador selfish and that he isn't the only leader in the team now(which is total bs)

 

[El Pistolero]

Beat Contador and Andy ? emm...

remember Morzine Avoriaz this years Tour de France ?...Kreuziger attack - Contador counter att....than Gesink lead the group ...and than Samu Sanchez and Andy Schleck attack - and Contador couldnt follow them ...in the finish it was only 10 second but IT WAS GAP !!!

Grand Tour = 3 weeks of racing

 

[The Hitch]

Well, Giro di Lombardia is hilly and Gilbert is good in hilly races. And I definitely wouldn't call Leipheimer similiar to Vinokourov. And that's my point by the way, it would require a lot of luck to win. Would you give up extra wins at 3 monuments just so you can ride in the other 2 and hope for luck? Cancellara doesn't need luck to win the classics he has won so far, it's all his own power. Perhaps his MSR victory was a bit lucky though.

You are right that Cancellara is better off riding Paris Roubaixs and Ronde van Vlanderins repeatedly over the next few years, clocking up his monument count.

But Cancellara himself has said that he wants to go for the 2 remaining monuments. So whatever we might believe, it looks like Cancellara will be going for the other 2 instead. Good in my opinion because i want to see people fighting out for Paris Roubaix rather than foregone conclusions.

 

[El Pistolero]

You are right that Cancellara is better off riding Paris Roubaixs and Ronde van Vlanderins repeatedly over the next few years, clocking up his monument count.

But Cancellara himself has said that he wants to go for the 2 remaining monuments. So whatever we might believe, it looks like Cancellara will be going for the other 2 instead. Good in my opinion because i want to see people fighting out for Paris Roubaix rather than foregone conclusions.

Boonen will need to change as well then ;o

I'm not going to stop Cancellara from trying it, but if he thinks Contador will 100% work for him in races like that then he's one big fool. There's no reason why both can be protected riders(the reason why this debate started) and I just can't see Cancellara outclimbing someone like Andy Schleck or even Contador when he prepares for LBL.

With guys like Ricco coming back at the Giro di Lombardia...