How to prove a negative?

[Benotti69]

I think I can agree with most of your last point, Benotti, which is better than nothing.
I don't think Sky base their success on other teams not training hard enough, more on them doing things differently, without some the traditional cycling methods.
Lance, on the other hand, did say he trained harder than others. He may have been telling a partial truth, without explaining HOW he could train harder.
But you are right about the Clinic: it does serve a function as a place where ideas can be explored.
What do you think of my main point: about how goalposts get moved?

The only goal post that got moved as far as i can see is Sky are 'protected' by UCI just like other teams were, namely USPS.

 

[DirtyDennis]

Hmmm...

I can see interesting circumstantial evidence to suggest that Armstrong bought off the UCI (the payment for the Sysmex machine, the Swiss suspicious test result debacle).

I've yet to see any evidence, even weak evidence, that Sky have bought off the UCI, however I'm not discounting it as a possibility.

The one thing I've never understood with this line of argument, that big players pay off the UCI, is where it is left by Landis's positive test.

If there is one thing that surely does not serve the UCI's interests, it is a TdF winner testing positive. If they could cover up Armstrong, and if they could cover up Sky...why didnt they cover up Landis?

 

[LongSprint]

Lie detector testing

 

[Benotti69]

Hmmm...

I can see interesting circumstantial evidence to suggest that Armstrong bought off the UCI (the payment for the Sysmex machine, the Swiss suspicious test result debacle).

I've yet to see any evidence, even weak evidence, that Sky have bought off the UCI, however I'm not discounting it as a possibility.

The one thing I've never understood with this line of argument, that big players pay off the UCI, is where it is left by Landis's positive test.

If there is one thing that surely does not serve the UCI's interests, it is a TdF winner testing positive. If they could cover up Armstrong, and if they could cover up Sky...why didnt they cover up Landis?

Gee, i am sure Brailsford would tell us he paid off UCI dont ya think?

Armstrong boasted to other riders. That will not happen at Sky!

Landis's positive could have been paid for by Armstrong. Why not? He wouldn't want another American to win it right after him. Hein boasted about making a rider test positive if he wanted.

But Sky are not going to make the same mistakes as USPS are they? They'll be doing their hardest to prevent it.

 

[Mortimer]

Please, can we all agree to take the Sky/LA discussion to one of the many threads which cover these two subjects? Every thread ends up recycling the same arguments about Sky ( even more than LA nowadays), regardless of the relevance to the thread topic.
In this case, the thread OP refers to "how can we prove riders are clean?" - interesting and difficult question to answer. The simple answer is - you can't prove a negative. However, there have been some good suggestions for data publishing, i.e. BP and SRM data, etc. Unfortunately, I believe that if certain teams/ riders did all this, their critics would not be satisfied (I include myself in this, I'm sure any doper from the last 20 years could provide "clean" data, which would clearly not satisfy my cynicism).
Think of this: ADA's spend all of their budgets and time trying to find positive test results, they know the futility of testing athletes to see who is clean.
Unfortunately, I think this idea is a dream for the foreseeable future.
Cheers,
Mort

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Okay...for those who have not figured it out.

UCI anti-doping was an income stream for Hein and maybe Pat. You got caught, you could pay and stay, or you could ride it out.

Boom. Mike drop.

 

[martinvickers]

Gee, i am sure Brailsford would tell us he paid off UCI dont ya think?

Armstrong boasted to other riders. That will not happen at Sky!

Landis's positive could have been paid for by Armstrong. Why not? He wouldn't want another American to win it right after him. Hein boasted about making a rider test positive if he wanted.

But Sky are not going to make the same mistakes as USPS are they? They'll be doing their hardest to prevent it.

sh*t on a brick!! So Landis was clean, now, is this the argument, but was 'set up' by Lance and Hein who paid to put together a false positive? Wow, scary!

So when he finally confessed to all that doping, even though he was a clean winner wrongly accused and it was a set up, it was just for the hell of it?

Wow!

or, you know, your talking sh*t, one or the other....

 

[martinvickers]

Gee, i am sure Brailsford would tell us he paid off UCI dont ya think?

Armstrong boasted to other riders. That will not happen at Sky!

Landis's positive could have been paid for by Armstrong. Why not? He wouldn't want another American to win it right after him. Hein boasted about making a rider test positive if he wanted.

But Sky are not going to make the same mistakes as USPS are they? They'll be doing their hardest to prevent it.

So presumably we can now expect Wiggo, on the outs with Sky and rich, to put some of that new found wealth towards buying a positive for froome...hell, take no risks, ping G Thomas while we're about it...Brad wouldn't just allow that b****** Froome to steal his only british winner thunder, would he...and sure Pat loves Brad, it could be like a going away present....

 

[gooner]

Interesting to see Benotti say Sky are protected by the UCI but then in a following post more or less say there is nothing to back it up like we could with USP.

Thanks for taking your own argument apart.

 

[BroDeal]

sh*t on a brick!! So Landis was clean, now, is this the argument, but was 'set up' by Lance and Hein who paid to put together a false positive? Wow, scary!

So when he finally confessed to all that doping, even though he was a clean winner wrongly accused and it was a set up, it was just for the hell of it?

Wow!

or, you know, your talking sh*t, one or the other....

Some people are amazingly thick.

 

[martinvickers]

Some people are amazingly thick.

Oh, don't beat yourself up, BroDeal...we don't blame you at all....

 

[Maxiton]

Just prior to the Landis positive, Hein Verdruggem, Armstrong, and a few investors were in talks with the Amaury organization to buy the Tour de France. Problem was, the price was too high. What they needed was a way to lower the price - and the lower the better, no doubt. The possibility that Hein and Armstrong sabotaged Landis for this purpose was first brought to light here in the Clinic. Landis, for his part, eventually confessed all, but has always insisted he wasn't guilty of that particular infraction.

When you couple the financial angle with the fact that no one, to my knowledge, ever left USPS to lead a competing team without subsequently testing positive; and then add in that such a scheme would be in keeping with armstrong's personality -- you have a scenario where all the pieces fit. Highly likely, even. I wouldn't be surprised if Landis agrees.



(And you know, had they bought it, we'd have heard it called "Tour de Lance" forevermore.)

Edit: But to bring it back on topic, clean cycling is for me is as pornography famously was for U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. I don't need to know that the riders are "clean" down to the Nth degree. I don't think such a standard is practical. I just need to know that they are racing as human beings, not extraterrestrials, that they are suffering and giving their all, that none has an undue advantage. They prove they are clean simply by being clean. People with eyes usually can see the difference, and if you can't then it doesn't matter as much.

(And by the way, it's all well and good to say the peloton today is cleaner than ever, but if that simply means that only a few riders are permitted to go overboard while everyone else is held back, as it is today with Sky, well, then racing as a whole is dirtier than ever.)

 

[Nick777]

ok world tour events could be competed on official bikes with the same equipment directly streaming srm data to the media

................dream on!

Mark L

Don't SRM already do this with some triathletes?

 

[JimmyFingers]

I don't know about you but I certainly did not wait 11 years. I went full gas on this topic over a decade ago.

I form my opinions by talking to dozens of people close to the sport. Current and former Pro's, staff, administrators, testers, etc. Add to this physical evidence. Then add in Watts, VAM, W/kg. There are still many questions, a toxic culture, and many elements that need to be out of the sport.....but the top level of the sport is cleaner then ever. Significantly cleaner then even 5 years ago. The amateur side is a mess, but that is a different story

Just to ensure this sort of informed post doesn't get drowned out in the white noise

 

[Maxiton]

Just to ensure this sort of informed post doesn't get drowned out in the white noise

That's all you have to contribute?

 

[DirtyDennis]

Okay...for those who have not figured it out.

UCI anti-doping was an income stream for Hein and maybe Pat. You got caught, you could pay and stay, or you could ride it out.

Boom. Mike drop.

I hadn't figured it out, so thanks for enlightening me. Should somebody let Hamilton and Landis know?

After all, they made no mention of this even though they said quite a lot of other exciting stuff.

 

[DirtyDennis]

Just prior to the Landis positive, Hein Verdruggem, Armstrong, and a few investors were in talks with the Amaury organization to buy the Tour de France. Problem was, the price was too high. What they needed was a way to lower the price - and the lower the better, no doubt. The possibility that Hein and Armstrong sabotaged Landis for this purpose was first brought to light here in the Clinic. Landis, for his part, eventually confessed all, but has always insisted he wasn't guilty of that particular infraction.

When you couple the financial angle with the fact that no one, to my knowledge, ever left USPS to lead a competing team without subsequently testing positive; and then add in that such a scheme would be in keeping with armstrong's personality -- you have a scenario where all the pieces fit. Highly likely, even. I wouldn't be surprised if Landis agrees.



(And you know, had they bought it, we'd have heard it called "Tour de Lance" forevermore.)

Edit: But to bring it back on topic, clean cycling is for me is as pornography famously was for U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. I don't need to know that the riders are "clean" down to the Nth degree. I don't think such a standard is practical. I just need to know that they are racing as human beings, not extraterrestrials, that they are suffering and giving their all, that none has an undue advantage. They prove they are clean simply by being clean. People with eyes usually can see the difference, and if you can't then it doesn't matter as much.

(And by the way, it's all well and good to say the peloton today is cleaner than ever, but if that simply means that only a few riders are permitted to go overboard while everyone else is held back, as it is today with Sky, well, then racing as a whole is dirtier than ever.)

Amazing!

What's really amazing is that Landis's Stage 17 A sample was tested by the French government's anti-doping clinical laboratory, the National Laboratory for Doping Detection (LNDD). LNDD is a division of the Ministry of Youth, Sport, and Social Life and is accredited by WADA

They are all in on it! Even the French government!

 

[Maxiton]

Some people are amazingly thick.

I see what you're saying.

 

[sideshadow]

I hadn't figured it out, so thanks for enlightening me. Should somebody let Hamilton and Landis know?

After all, they made no mention of this even though they said quite a lot of other exciting stuff.

Hamilton did actually, in his book he mentions that before his positive test came out, a Swiss man named Christian Vinzens contacted Phonak officials saying he knew certain Phonak riders were going to test positive, and that in exchange for payment, he could make the problem 'go away'.

As for Landis, he still maintains that he didn't dope during his Tour win. Why would he confess to everything and then lie about this. I honestly don't think he gives a **** what people think anymore and if he did in fact use T during the Tour, he would've admitted to it by now.

 

[rata de sentina]

Amazing!

What's really amazing is that Landis's Stage 17 A sample was tested by the French government's anti-doping clinical laboratory, the National Laboratory for Doping Detection (LNDD). LNDD is a division of the Ministry of Youth, Sport, and Social Life and is accredited by WADA

They are all in on it! Even the French government!

I'm donning my aluminium foil headgear this instant.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Was the Clinic 11.

i do not need JV doing a thing for me. i dont think i am an interested party to the behaviour of the peloton.

my opinion on doping is my opinion, and i have found it fruitless to influence anyone.

Truest words spoken yet

 

[martinvickers]

As for Landis, he still maintains that he didn't dope during his Tour win. Why would he confess to everything and then lie about this. I honestly don't think he gives a **** what people think anymore and if he did in fact use T during the Tour, he would've admitted to it by now.

Seriously? That's standard practice. Maybe you didn't hear Lance deny doping in 2009, as his whole career lay in tatters - still trying to cling to something that we all knew was bullsh*t. Maybe you haven't heard some of the odder things Conte has said since Balco, admitting what he did yet still trying to 'massage' it.

I'm absolutely delighted Tyler and Floyd did what they did in the end, and in some future life, their karma will benefit from it. But please don't, don't kid yourself that they are incapable of 'fudging' the truth, even to themselves.

Floyd doped. Floyd was caught. This tinfoil hat stuff is, frankly, childish. The players are more than immoral enough, without trying to invent a grassy knoll.

 

[JimmyFingers]

That's all you have to contribute?

What the hell sort of question is that? I was catching up on the thread, read a worthy post, and seconded it by quoting it. You have a problem with that?

 

[JimmyFingers]

I see what you're saying.

You question me, yet you come up with this nugget, quoting a childish insult and agreeing with it. Classy

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Seriously? That's standard practice. Maybe you didn't hear Lance deny doping in 2009, as his whole career lay in tatters - still trying to cling to something that we all knew was bullsh*t. Maybe you haven't heard some of the odder things Conte has said since Balco, admitting what he did yet still trying to 'massage' it.

I'm absolutely delighted Tyler and Floyd did what they did in the end, and in some future life, their karma will benefit from it. But please don't, don't kid yourself that they are incapable of 'fudging' the truth, even to themselves.

Floyd doped. Floyd was caught. This tinfoil hat stuff is, frankly, childish. The players are more than immoral enough, without trying to invent a grassy knoll.

Tin foil hat?

http://slayingthebadger.com/page/2/

“It’s the tension from the organizer of the race, the public,” continued LeMond. “They want to see Hinault win. But if they want to crash me, I’d rather they told that to me right now, and I’ll give the jersey to him. I’ll stop the Tour de France rather than continue and have someone punch me and knock me down. I can understand the pressure he’s under. But I really can’t understand his attitude—that he wants to win so bad that he’d stab me in the back after promising to work for me in this Tour. You can never trust anybody. Life is that way.”

“I wasn’t really worried about something sinister happening until Goddet’s visit,” said LeMond.

Jacques Goddet, the Tour director. “He said he was so happy to see an American in yellow, and for an American to win the Tour. But then he says, ‘You must be very careful, Greg—there are a lot of people who want to see Hinault win.’”

Goddet told LeMond, ‘I’m hearing many things that are very worrying, and I promise you, Greg, I’ll do everything I can to protect you, but I can only do so much. You have to be so careful, Greg. With your bottles, with your food, with your mechanics . . .’”

“A lot of the stuff he was suggesting hadn’t really entered my mind…” LeMond said.

The organizer of the Tour coming to warn a rider at dinner? “Watch your food? Your water?”

But hey, LeMond was also a nutter of course, must have made that up.