How to prove a negative?

[Netserk]

Seriously? That's standard practice. Maybe you didn't hear Lance deny doping in 2009, as his whole career lay in tatters - still trying to cling to something that we all knew was bullsh*t. Maybe you haven't heard some of the odder things Conte has said since Balco, admitting what he did yet still trying to 'massage' it.

I'm absolutely delighted Tyler and Floyd did what they did in the end, and in some future life, their karma will benefit from it. But please don't, don't kid yourself that they are incapable of 'fudging' the truth, even to themselves.

Floyd doped. Floyd was caught. This tinfoil hat stuff is, frankly, childish. The players are more than immoral enough, without trying to invent a grassy knoll.

Have you read the Kimmage/Landis interview? He *did* admit that he doped in 2006. IIRC it was BB, EPO and HGH.

In the case you haven't, here is the full transcript

 

[martinvickers]

Have you read the Kimmage/Landis interview? He *did* admit that he doped in 2006. IIRC it was BB, EPO and HGH.

In the case you haven't, here is the full transcript

Read what I wrote. I used the word 'fudging' for a reason. Indeed earlier, I rather made clear the mockery of suggesting that Lance had to 'buy' a positive for Floyd. He was rattling, as he himself now admits. He was well capable of a + without the Dark Lord's help.

I'm well aware of the interview, thanks.

 

[Netserk]

Read what I wrote. I used the word 'fudging' for a reason. Indeed earlier, I rather made clear the mockery of suggesting that Lance had to 'buy' a positive for Floyd. He was rattling, as he himself now admits. He was well capable of a + without the Dark Lord's help.

I'm well aware of the interview, thanks.

So you know that he tested positive for something that he - according to himself - didn't use?

 

[martinvickers]

Tin foil hat?

Yes, tinfoil hat.

http://slayingthebadger.com/page/2/



But hey, LeMond was also a nutter of course, must have made that up.

I'm afraid I don't read that the way you do. You read it as a threat to contaminate for doping.

But when you see a ref to mechanics in the same phrasal list, it's just as likely, if not more so, that we're talking a threat to sabotage, i.e. to poison. Of which their is a long history (laxitives was a particular favourite, salt in the bidons too, if memory serves), and much much more likely to get their man, given the limits in 1980's dope control, and much harder for LeMond to kick up a stink about afterwards.

So, again, Yes. Tinfoil hats.

Or, you know, let's believe Landis was the unwitting victim, in a fully active yet never discovered conspiracy between WADA, the French Government, French Anti-doping, the UCI and Lance Armstrong to pop a positive for a guy well capable of going positive himself, but yet waiting until he's won the bloody race to do the damage. You know, to lower the price of the Tour to buy from ASO - which never happened anyway. A conspiracy that has fooled the entire world.

Except a couple of geniuses in the clinic, who are right onto it.

Yep. Plausible.

 

[martinvickers]

So you know that he tested positive for something that he - according to himself - didn't use?

ahem...the point I've been making?

 

[sideshadow]

Yes, tinfoil hat.



I'm afraid I don't read that the way you do. You read it as a threat to contaminate for doping.

But when you see a ref to mechanics in the same phrasal list, it's just as likely, if not more so, that we're talking a threat to sabotage, i.e. to poison. Of which their is a long history (laxitives was a particular favourite, salt in the bidons too, if memory serves), and much much more likely to get their man, given the limits in 1980's dope control, and much harder for LeMond to kick up a stink about afterwards.

So, again, Yes. Tinfoil hats.

Or, you know, let's believe Landis was the unwitting victim, in a fully active yet never discovered conspiracy between WADA, the French Government, French Anti-doping, the UCI and Lance Armstrong to pop a positive for a guy well capable of going positive himself, but yet waiting until he's won the bloody race to do the damage. You know, to lower the price of the Tour to buy from ASO - which never happened anyway. A conspiracy that has fooled the entire world.

Except a couple of geniuses in the clinic, who are right onto it.

Yep. Plausible.

So he will micro-dose IV, take hGh, do autologous blood transfusions, all in a effort to avoid detection and then what? Take Testosterone for sh!ts and giggles? Knowing that he will test positive? Is he that dumb?

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy, the test accurate, with Landis glowing, having unknowingly ingested/ been given the substance.

 

[Ferminal]

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=17472

 

[martinvickers]

So he will micro-dose IV, take hGh, do autologous blood transfusions, all in a effort to avoid detection and then what? Take Testosterone for sh!ts and giggles? Knowing that he will test positive? Is he that dumb?

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy, the test accurate, with Landis glowing, having unknowingly ingested/ been given the substance.

Why would he take extra blood to AVOID detection; surely he takes extra bood, to take extra blood.

Yo' not making no sense, boy!

 

[martinvickers]

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=17472

That poll is really rather reassuring.

 

[sideshadow]

Why would he take extra blood to AVOID detection; surely he takes extra bood, to take extra blood.

Yo' not making no sense, boy!

ffs. Do a transfusion instead of normal doses of rh-EPO which will have the same effect but get him caught.

 

[martinvickers]

ffs. Do a transfusion instead of normal doses of rh-EPO which will have the same effect but get him caught.

right, right, get what you're saying now....it just read as if blood doping was simply an avoidance procedure, i thought 'wha?'.

Still don't buy it though.

 

[sideshadow]

right, right, get what you're saying now....it just read as if blood doping was simply an avoidance procedure, i thought 'wha?'.

Still don't buy it though.

Haha. No problem.

 

[rata de sentina]

As pointed out by Ferminal all this Landis and the T stuff has been discussed to death. The original post raising the issue of outlandish conspiricy was suggesting the involvement of UCI etc not some more mundane common or garden sabotage. Various feasible scenarios have been raised regarding the presence of the T all of them more plausible than Pat creeping into the LNDD in the middle of the night ninja style to doctor the sample or Hein smearing topical T on a bidon.

Conspiricies are pretty hard work.

 

[thehog]

As pointed out by Ferminal all this Landis and the T stuff has been discussed to death. The original post raising the issue of outlandish conspiricy was suggesting the involvement of UCI etc not some more mundane common or garden sabotage. Various feasible scenarios have been raised regarding the presence of the T all of them more plausible than Pat creeping into the LNDD in the middle of the night ninja style to doctor the sample or Hein smearing topical T on a bidon.

Conspiricies are pretty hard work.

Yes been done to death.

I doubt Hein crept into the lab.

But there was the lab technician who changed her statements several times. Who didn't sign the testing documents presented, cried, had a break and then remembered she did sign them

Time will be the judge in that case.

 

[Maxiton]

As pointed out by Ferminal all this Landis and the T stuff has been discussed to death. The original post raising the issue of outlandish conspiricy was suggesting the involvement of UCI etc not some more mundane common or garden sabotage. Various feasible scenarios have been raised regarding the presence of the T all of them more plausible than Pat creeping into the LNDD in the middle of the night ninja style to doctor the sample or Hein smearing topical T on a bidon.

Conspiricies are pretty hard work.

And hard work pays, as Armstrong would say. Or, rather, would have said. Although he is still rich.


Look, the entire history of the USPS team was one of conspiracy. This is, at this point, not disputed. Since LA followed the code of Omertà, when forced to, and fell on his sword, the extent of the conspiracy can (for now) only be speculated on.

What's certain is that Hein Verbruggen stupidly boasted of his ability to make any rider turn up positive. Your guess is as good as mine how he'd get that done, but I'm sure there is more than one way and none of them involves Pat sneaking into the tent at night.

 

[rata de sentina]

Oh yeah, sorry hog I forgot about Pat and Hein waylaying the lab tech's granny and holding her hostage until the tech did the sample switcheroo.

I'm sure the clinic 11.5 spent days piecing together the evidence on that one.

 

[rata de sentina]

Although he is still rich.

For the moment.

What's certain is that Hein Verbruggen stupidly boasted of his ability to make any rider turn up positive.

Well Hein and his acolyte have spouted a lot of bullsh*t in their time and I haven't noted you credulously nodding your head so you're being a little selective. I'm not sure every threat uttered by a blowhard is credible. His bluster on the legal front doesn't seem to have much substance.

 

[thehog]

Oh yeah, sorry hog I forgot about Pat and Hein waylaying the lab tech's granny and holding her hostage until the tech did the sample switcheroo.

I'm sure the clinic 11.5 spent days piecing together the evidence on that one.

I know the Clinic is crazy. One time they were trying to tell us that Armstrong had a an EPO test covered up and that he was allowed to meet a lab director after making a donation. Just crazy talk.

 

[Benotti69]

Oh yeah, sorry hog I forgot about Pat and Hein waylaying the lab tech's granny and holding her hostage until the tech did the sample switcheroo.

I'm sure the clinic 11.5 spent days piecing together the evidence on that one.

Probably a few Swiss franks was the order of the day. Granny not needed that time. But if I was Cookson's Granny I would grow eyes in the back of my head

 

[rata de sentina]

I know the Clinic is crazy. One time they were trying to tell us that Armstrong had a an EPO test covered up and that he was allowed to meet a lab director after making a donation. Just crazy talk.

But hog the ways that things work are more nuanced and complex than you can imagine or at least like to maintain.

LA might have liked to think that his grateful 'contribution' after the fact was for services rendered. But of course the lab head took the easy way out with a new test which was conservatively interpreted not positive just suss. Which was never going to be a sanction anyway. So in fact Hein and co fleeced LA.

The key error of judgement by the lab head was the meeting, it should never have happened because they should have kept their powder dry. Personally I think the lab head was naive, a harsh lesson in retrospect. since he's been absolutely roasted over it. Whoever arranged/suggested the meeting was cynical.

 

[thehog]

But hog the ways that things work are more nuanced and complex than you can imagine or at least like to maintain.

LA might have liked to think that his grateful 'contribution' after the fact was for services rendered. But of course the lab head took the easy way out with a new test which was conservatively interpreted not positive just suss. Which was never going to be a sanction anyway. So in fact Hein and co fleeced LA.

The key error of judgement by the lab head was the meeting, it should never have happened because they should have kept their powder dry. Personally I think the lab head was naive, a harsh lesson in retrospect. since he's been absolutely roasted over it. Whoever arranged/suggested the meeting was cynical.

Phew!

Thanks for the update!

For a minute there I thought there might be corruption in pro cycling.

But everything looks to be in order. Thanks for the reassurance.

(Vote 1 Pat McQuaid!)

 

[sideshadow]

So what was all that stuff about about Lance ratting on the Spanish guys for using PFC's. Crying to the UCI about Hamilton, at which point he (Hamilton) is then called in, by the UCI, and told to cool it. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to imagine a already doped rider made positive or a smaller rider being made an example and a big rider getting a pass. Both being doped of course, but still..

 

[DirtyDennis]

There is no doubt that there are conspiracies in cycling. The omerta is a conspiracy of silence. The USPS team success was centred around a doping conspiracy.

We have to be very careful we don't make an inference too far, and especially with the weight we give to everything we read from people involved, such as Landis an Hamilton. Just because some of it is true does not mean it is all true. This is not an accusation of lying, but a recognition that if, like Floyd and Tyler, you are living in part of a conspiracy that, if revealed, would have catestrophic consequences, the one thing you will be is paranoid...and paranoia can entail reading far more into a situation than is actually there.

I'm thinking in particular of Hamilton's claim at LA told him he had the power to get pos tests covered up. It might be that he did, but it is also possible that Armstrong was playing mind games with Hamilton, overemphasing his own omnipotency in order to scare Hamilton into loyalty.

*that said, I don't think there is anything in pro cycling that would surprise me, short of the entire Sky team ripping off prosthetic skin suits to reveal themselves as lizard cyclists freeing up their mandibles to feed off Cadel Evans massive fleshy chin.

 

[Benotti69]

There is no doubt that there are conspiracies in cycling. The omerta is a conspiracy of silence. The USPS team success was centred around a doping conspiracy.

We have to be very careful we don't make an inference too far, and especially with the weight we give to everything we read from people involved, such as Landis an Hamilton. Just because some of it is true does not mean it is all true. This is not an accusation of lying, but a recognition that if, like Floyd and Tyler, you are living in part of a conspiracy that, if revealed, would have catestrophic consequences, the one thing you will be is paranoid...and paranoia can entail reading far more into a situation than is actually there.

I'm thinking in particular of Hamilton's claim at LA told him he had the power to get pos tests covered up. It might be that he did, but it is also possible that Armstrong was playing mind games with Hamilton, overemphasing his own omnipotency in order to scare Hamilton into loyalty.

*that said, I don't think there is anything in pro cycling that would surprise me, short of the entire Sky team ripping off prosthetic skin suits to reveal themselves as lizard cyclists freeing up their mandibles to feed off Cadel Evans massive fleshy chin.

We know this to be true. Better read up on your doping.

 

[DirtyDennis]

Do we?

I don't think we do, yet.