how to stop cheating

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Mar 16, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
No, that would be you and people like you.
C'mon tff you can do better than that. Argue your point instead of resorting to pithy responses.

I was positing the admire cheats with tongue in cheek. But I think the rest of the points are valid and deserve more than a No No No from such an illustrious mind as yourself?














Forget it, I'll save you the bandwitdh and answer my own question:

No.
 
jackhammer111 said:
someone like kohl is not a whistleblower. His retirement tells me that he knows that he'd be worthless as a clean rider. Hence, the donkey thing.
.
Jack, trust us when we tell you that Kohl's retirement is because nobody would take him back because he broke the Omerta. Ask Jacksche, Manzano, Sinkewitz.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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krebs303 said:
Thank you that was really informative. I found this from 1981!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7253 ... rom=pubmed
It's amazing what has been published and how early some of these things were published. Which raises two questions: Are athletes ahead of scientists or vice versa? And is it any wonder that I am cynical about the UCI and their antidoping efforts when this information has been around for years and they have done nothing about it?
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Snake8 said:
I would offer, I dont really give a poo pills to all cycling fans....

Seriously though - look at how every other sport handles doping - badly. Cycling really does do more than any other sport that I am aware of. If its not enough, then maybe its too much? Because clearly its not working right?

Most of you guys that are so anti-doping: do you think there will EVER be a CLEAN peleton? That's as naive and lacking in critical thinking as anything else I've seen on these forums.

Maybe we should not be talking about doping per se, what all you guys really hate is that there is not a level playing field and that people are forced to use drugs (cheating) to compete at the highest level.

I dont have an answer that doesnt involve killling the UCI, a rider's union and completely independent (fab) testing - not WADA. Maybe we just need to accept that cycling is, was and always will be full of cheats.

Maybe we should admire the cheaters for being smart enough to jig the system and get away with it for so long?

Who's the real bogeyman here all you anti-dope zealots? Maybe its you! ;-)
Thanks for articulating and illustrating to us all the exact personality type that is the problem in cycling, all other sports, the business world and society in general. You are a perfect example of the problem - a narcisistic scumbag who doesn't care about ethics, morality, fairness, or the idea of purity of competition. I am quoting your post to make sure you cannot delete it once you realize how openly you've revealed yourself to us as totally lacking in any quality that makes a decent human being. You are a truly pathetic piece of human excrement and I pity your family for having brought you into the world and having to live with what a moral failure you are.

Just to connect the dots for you since I know you are far too simple minded to understand the harshness of my response to you: the message here is that people of integrity will never simply "accept the way things are since there will always be cheats." On the contrary, we will always be there to expose people like you, vilify you, and make examples of you as the polar opposite of what any decent person of integrity should strive to be.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Snake8 said:
Maybe we should admire the cheaters for being smart enough to jig the system and get away with it for so long?
Maybe we should admire Bernard Madoff for being smart enough to create an elaborate ponzi scheme that stole millions of Dollars from people and allowed him to get away with living the high life for so long.

Maybe we should admire Adolf Hitler for being smart enough to take over most of Europe and rule it for so long.

Maybe you should instead do the human race a favor and go teabag a blender.
 
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Anonymous

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BroDeal said:
I would because I--uh, like--follow the news. The reason Alpe is suggesting them is because they are not in use.
well smart guy if you're going to do clandestine work you don't go out and tell everbody about it do you?!! you big dummy! :p
 
Mar 18, 2009
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jackhammer111 said:
well smart guy if you're going to do clandestine work you don't go out and tell everbody about it do you?!! you big dummy! :p
Yeah, I can just see old Pat McQuaid in a trenchcoat with dark glasses prowling the european underworld with a suitcase of fake dope. He'll pop into a Russian night club, rip off his coat, revealing a tuxedo underneath, and then sidle up to a hard, tattooed Viggo Mortenson-looking mofo drinking at the bar.

"The name is Quaid, Pat McQuaid," he will say. "I have a load of bio-similar EPO, but the minimum price is $500K. Any less and I can make more money taking bribes."
 
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Anonymous

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Escarabajo said:
Jack, trust us when we tell you that Kohl's retirement is because nobody would take him back because he broke the Omerta. Ask Jacksche, Manzano, Sinkewitz.
a real whistleblower usually has a job he wants to keep.
that's why there will be no whistlblowers in that sense in cycling. you can't go back to the peleton.
uci could enact rules creating a system to provide information in secret. keeps there job. informers are whistleblowers. distasteful? yes.
maybe it's time for distasteful tactics.
i like the idea of moles, undercover doctors enticing riders to try their wares. spies. go all james bond on them. alp's ideas really.

trust me when i say the reason he retired is because he knows he can't come back and do diddly squat without the dope.

retirement frees him to talk. although i think his lawyers are reigning him in to a go slow approach to make sure he doesn't say something that gets his bottom sued.
 
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Anonymous

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BroDeal said:
Yeah, I can just see old Pat McQuaid in a trenchcoat with dark glasses prowling the european underworld with a suitcase of fake dope. He'll pop into a Russian night club, rip off his coat, revealing a tuxedo underneath, and then sidle up to a hard, tattooed Viggo Mortenson-looking mofo drinking at the bar.

"The name is Quaid, Pat McQuaid," he will say. "I have a load of bio-similar EPO, but the minimum price is $500K. Any less and I can make more money taking bribes."
oh, that's funny.
just not yet.
yea, check back in week and see if it's funny yet. :D
 
Mar 18, 2009
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jackhammer111 said:
trust me when i say the reason he retired is because he knows he can't come back and do diddly squat without the dope.
Sure we will trust you. Afterall, you have oh so much so much cred here.
 
jackhammer111 said:
It's already done better than I thought it would....Whew, I'm worn out.
233 posts Jack, this is your best one yet. Good job on creating a thread that's actually moving forward for the most part!

Great links there Elapid. You get an A+.

CO blood volume analysis has been around many years, and able to be analyzed with pin *** testing about a decade. Though I still don't completely comprehend it. Link here to Ashenden group study.

Another issue that is possible if those that are anti-doping (I'll start with Clerc, Ashenden, Lemond, Hinault, Shenk, Pettyjohn & Franke) all stood together on a press conference the week before the Tour and demanded a cleaner sport, and that ideas like these we're discussing be implemented. And also said that the omerta needed to be broken, and riders, soigners, and support personnel that want to come clean and need a safe haven can come to them and stand behind them, and that they will support them.

While I believe almost all Kohl says, he isn't a true whistleblower. Until something like the above happens (as we know the UCI isn't going to do it), there won't be any true whistleblowers in cycling.

Keep in mind guys, it's not all money. Kayle Leogrande bought plenty of EPO with help from someone we know for $500, and passed the controls. The way he was caught, and prosecuted, is what I'm talking about. Follow this link.
 
Jun 3, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
Thanks for articulating and illustrating to us all the exact personality type that is the problem in cycling, all other sports, the business world and society in general. You are a perfect example of the problem - a narcisistic scumbag who doesn't care about ethics, morality, fairness, or the idea of purity of competition. I am quoting your post to make sure you cannot delete it once you realize how openly you've revealed yourself to us as totally lacking in any quality that makes a decent human being. You are a truly pathetic piece of human excrement and I pity your family for having brought you into the world and having to live with what a moral failure you are.

Just to connect the dots for you since I know you are far too simple minded to understand the harshness of my response to you: the message here is that people of integrity will never simply "accept the way things are since there will always be cheats." On the contrary, we will always be there to expose people like you, vilify you, and make examples of you as the polar opposite of what any decent person of integrity should strive to be.
C'mon, are those sorts of personal insults really required? What does it say about your ethics?

I totally agree with your view about integrity and fighting against the unjust status quo and totally disagree with snake. He should be able to give his opinion though without being personally abused. Sure, abuse his views anyway you like. It is good to have these views stated as then people can post arguments against them.

I agree with elapid (thanks for the links) and the others. I think the real key is for a well funded and powerful independent body to take over the testing. The details should then fall in to place. If the chances of getting caught are high the Omerta will eventually be broken.
 
Mar 16, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
Thanks for articulating and illustrating to us all the exact personality type that is the problem in cycling, all other sports, the business world and society in general. You are a perfect example of the problem - a narcisistic scumbag who doesn't care about ethics, morality, fairness, or the idea of purity of competition. I am quoting your post to make sure you cannot delete it once you realize how openly you've revealed yourself to us as totally lacking in any quality that makes a decent human being. You are a truly pathetic piece of human excrement and I pity your family for having brought you into the world and having to live with what a moral failure you are.

Just to connect the dots for you since I know you are far too simple minded to understand the harshness of my response to you: the message here is that people of integrity will never simply "accept the way things are since there will always be cheats." On the contrary, we will always be there to expose people like you, vilify you, and make examples of you as the polar opposite of what any decent person of integrity should strive to be.

And i will leave your quote here to show just how stupid you are. You are clearly not very smart, and I knew in posting what I did it would draw out the small minded losers like you that have to resort to name calling because you cannot argue the point. I've already said the comment about admiring cheaters was tongue in cheek (but of course in your high minded self-rightoussness you didnt actually read that did you).

The other points are valid and because a lowlife reprehensible scumbag like you cannot answer them merely proves my point that you and people like you live in a fantasy world. You are the same losers whose moral self righteousness leads to the Hitlers of the world. Its not me. I am a realist and I also happen to be a person of integrity, my own. I am not simple minded enough to expect to impse my own moral views on a world that is far more complex than you can understand. That is usually the terrain of the religious fanatics, frankly you sound a bit like a jihaadist.

Once again all you drum beaters keep proving me right. You cannot argue the issue. Go back and answer the questions I posed (with more than one word answers tff) and articulate a response. There are some people on this forum who are very anti-doping and can actually argue a point and make sense without name calling.

My post may have been meant to stir the pot, but your response is completely over the top and frankly says more about you than me.
 
Snake8 said:
Maybe we should admire the cheaters for being smart enough to jig the system and get away with it for so long?

Who's the real bogeyman here all you anti-dope zealots? Maybe its you! ;-)
I admire you for living in the real world. It's a breath of fresh air around here. Your sense of humor was lost on many, but not on all. Carry on mate - world peace is next!!!
 
Jun 3, 2009
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Snake8 said:
And i will leave your quote here to show just how stupid you are. You are clearly not very smart, and I knew in posting what I did it would draw out the small minded losers like you that have to resort to name calling because you cannot argue the point. I've already said the comment about admiring cheaters was tongue in cheek (but of course in your high minded self-rightoussness you didnt actually read that did you).

The other points are valid and because a lowlife reprehensible scumbag like you cannot answer them merely proves my point that you and people like you live in a fantasy world. You are the same losers whose moral self righteousness leads to the Hitlers of the world. Its not me. I am a realist and I also happen to be a person of integrity, my own. I am not simple minded enough to expect to impse my own moral views on a world that is far more complex than you can understand. That is usually the terrain of the religious fanatics, frankly you sound a bit like a jihaadist.

Once again all you drum beaters keep proving me right. You cannot argue the issue. Go back and answer the questions I posed (with more than one word answers tff) and articulate a response. There are some people on this forum who are very anti-doping and can actually argue a point and make sense without name calling.

My post may have been meant to stir the pot, but your response is completely over the top and frankly says more about you than me.

Pity you couldn't take the high moral ground without the same level of of name calling.

Personal insults aside it is good to have a thread that list things that could be done. It is good to see that there could be some hope (even if not likely in the short term).

Thanks Alpe for the Leogrande article which is links with the Joe Papp Whistle blower article I think you posted too. Very interesting team mangement dynamics.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Snake8 said:
I am a realist and I also happen to be a person of integrity, my own. I am not simple minded enough to expect to impse my own moral views on a world that is far more complex than you can understand.
Okay, so what are laws for if not to impose a code of accepted behavior upon a society? Sport is a microcosm of life in general, simply allowing cheating in sport as you advocate instead of fighting it shows a decay in the values of society at large.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Rider crash all the time and end up in hospital a lot.

Could UCI come up with a way for hospital staff to report they might see, like tracks in hidden places.

I'd think they already be bound to report anything that might indicated laws had been broken, and there are laws against doping now right?

But I'm talking about beyond that. A way to report anything they might think suspicious.

This is extreme as a human rights issue but I'd think at this point that athletes that expect much of a right to privacy now, especially while they are working, probably ought to pick a different sport.
 
Mar 16, 2009
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I don't think cycling can win the doping battle alone. But a concerted effort of all sports pushing for better testing and markers in new drugs as they are developed. Of course this is pretty much pie in the sky as cycling cannot even agree on who, when or how to punish offenders.
 
Jun 4, 2009
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jackhammer111 said:
Complete the following sentence.


I would stop cheating and catch the blood doping by........


btw... seeing how this forum is big on blanket condemnation and doomsaying i don't imagine this thread with get much traction.
....wiring each and every tour rider, DS and soigneur (plus any fringe members of the team entourage if required!) to a lie detector and asking them pertinent questions about their previous/current exposure to doping, knowledge/suspicions of guilty parties in the peloton etc. If the needle flickers wildly then be prepared to start handing out lifetime bans with alacrity.

Yes, I know it's probably a blatant infringement of human rights, but what the heck, it's just hypothetical!

(apologies in advance if this offends anyone, but it's been a long day and this is a moment of pure light relief)
 
Mar 19, 2009
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jackhammer111 said:
Rider crash all the time and end up in hospital a lot.

Could UCI come up with a way for hospital staff to report they might see, like tracks in hidden places.

I'd think they already be bound to report anything that might indicated laws had been broken, and there are laws against doping now right?

But I'm talking about beyond that. A way to report anything they might think suspicious.

This is extreme as a human rights issue but I'd think at this point that athletes that expect much of a right to privacy now, especially while they are working, probably ought to pick a different sport.
Bro, the riders go on IVs for legal reasons all the time. Unfortunately it wouldnt hold up... but thats true too.
 

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