I just have to ask ? Marianne Vos

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

with Cookson more still than with McQuaid you see how antidoping is being moderated, used as a PR tool.

- hang some obvious bad guys out to dry (astana)
- hide positives that could be more damning from a PR perspective (Menchov, JTL, Vos) away from the public eye.

Very IAAF-esque.
Add in Cookson's direct line to Saugy, and Saugy's direct line to IAAF. I think Cookson is working from the same manual as Coe/Diack/Dolle on how to 'manage' antidoping.

I wouldnt be surprised if they'd let Vos ride some races so as not to raise any suspicion.

If you start making all kinds of assumptions out of the blue (without any evidence, albeit circumstantial) you can basically reason away any sensible argument and discussion.

The sensible argument is if an athlete wants to be thought to be clean in a dirty sport they need to be very careful what they say. There are a few examples of how one should verbalise in public, Bassons and Kimmage are 2 pretty decent examples. Otherwise one should keep one's mouth shut tight less it catch some flies.

No i dont think it is possible to get to the top of one's sport without cheating and that includes doping.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I somehow think the women get tested even less than the men as there is even less money in that end of 'pro' cycling.

I have no doubt Vos dopes. She may be the Merckx of women's cycling, but Eddy juiced himself to the gills.

Then again, is there any rider that doesn't dope in your book? Just one will do. So if we delete Vos fro the sentence it would still correctly state your conviction, right?

I guess there will be a few who have not doped, but they have just entered the sport at the top level and are in for a rude awakening and by the middle of the season will have committed to doping or decided to call it quits at the end of the season.

 

[The Carrot]

Looks like Armidstead is displaying Vos levels of domination so far this year.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Looks like Armidstead is displaying Vos levels of domination so far this year.

Time for an Armistead thread??

 

[The Carrot]

Re: Re:

Looks like Armidstead is displaying Vos levels of domination so far this year.

Time for an Armistead thread??

Maybe, it's hard to tell with Women's cycling. Through no fault of their own the standard is poor, so it is plausible that a clean athlete could dominate. Remember, most female 'professionals' don't actually get paid, so somebody who does get some backing and is talented could dominate perhaps. We rarely see any power numbers from the women so it's hard to see if performances are extra terrestrial or not.

I think I'm about to be told that I am being naive though?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Looks like Armidstead is displaying Vos levels of domination so far this year.

Time for an Armistead thread??

Maybe, it's hard to tell with Women's cycling. Through no fault of their own the standard is poor, so it is plausible that a clean athlete could dominate. Remember, most female 'professionals' don't actually get paid, so somebody who does get some backing and is talented could dominate perhaps. We rarely see any power numbers from the women so it's hard to see if performances are extra terrestrial or not.

I think I'm about to be told that I am being naive though?

After the stories of fridges full of PEDs i dont think a clean athlete can dominate.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Armitstead is very much a British Cycling golden girl as well, in a way that Nicole Cooke and Emma Pooley never were nor could be. Emma's skillset didn't lend her to the right races (Worlds, Olympics), and Nicole had got most of her success despite British Cycling, so was far more likely to go off-message. Hence why you have BC spokespeople describing Armitstead's rainbow jersey as "a breakthrough for women's cycling in Britain" despite that it's only five years since the last one (Emma Pooley, Time Trial World Champion 2010), and only seven years since they had the reigning World AND Olympic champion (Cooke in 2008). Nicole also won the Giro Donne, so Lizzie hasn't achieved anything yet that Nicole hadn't done before, but Lizzie's come along at a better time to get the support for it. This doesn't mean she has to be doping though, it's all YMMV stuff about British Cycling really.

And really, she's done two race days this year so basing it on this season may be jumping the gun. She's won a Classic with a good but not great field, and a WWT race from a three-woman break with a finish which perfectly suits her skillset. She's looked mighty imposing so far this season, no doubt, and I personally don't like her much, but she was also always the bridesmaid before the last couple of seasons when Vos has been out injured anyway, and PFP has been splitting her time with MTB, Lizzie doesn't do CX in the winter like some of them so will be fresher than those riders, and she still isn't much of a stage racer, so it's not really like she's unlocked an achievement level Santambrogio-style either, she's just kept doing what she's always been doing, just that she's a step better now. I don't think anything's changed per se.

 

[Benotti69]

I never thought Cooke to be clean.

Armistead has progressed in a similar vein to say Nibali. although Armistead has not won major races apart from WC, but winning WC is a major in women's cycling. Only bigger race would be Olympics.

I think women's cycling, while not as big a sport as the mens, it is still as 'professional' and the doping as prevalent.

 

[zigmeister]

So the fact that Vos had vanished into obscurity, can we assume she thought the heat was on, and decided it was time to ride clean, and hence, she is just an average rider, like Lance?

Or did she make so much money that she is just sitting back in the lap of luxury for the next 40yrs?

Seriously question. There are many riders to compared this type of situation to. Gilbert...his phenomenal season several years back and classic run. Just a good year/performance, stars aligned? Or something esle?

Then you have the usual consistent riders, who don't throw up smoke signals with crazy performance, then vanish to the back of the peloton...or worse, off the back.

 

[sniper]

Re:

So the fact that Vos had vanished into obscurity, can we assume she thought the heat was on, and decided it was time to ride clean, and hence, she is just an average rider, like Lance?

Or did she make so much money that she is just sitting back in the lap of luxury for the next 40yrs?

Seriously question. There are many riders to compared this type of situation to. Gilbert...his phenomenal season several years back and classic run. Just a good year/performance, stars aligned? Or something esle?

Then you have the usual consistent riders, who don't throw up smoke signals with crazy performance, then vanish to the back of the peloton...or worse, off the back.

there are multiple explanations possible, but you can bet that doping has had something to do with it.

maybe a silent ban.
maybe just a health-related need to tone it down (too many steroids can't be good for a woman of her age)
maybe what you say, that she felt the heat (a warning letter?)

 

[Tienus]

I put my money on her being superwoman again in Rio.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

I put my money on her being superwoman again in Rio.

All the training in SA with no testing cant have hindered her preparation

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

So the fact that Vos had vanished into obscurity, can we assume she thought the heat was on, and decided it was time to ride clean, and hence, she is just an average rider, like Lance?

Or did she make so much money that she is just sitting back in the lap of luxury for the next 40yrs?

Seriously question. There are many riders to compared this type of situation to. Gilbert...his phenomenal season several years back and classic run. Just a good year/performance, stars aligned? Or something esle?

Then you have the usual consistent riders, who don't throw up smoke signals with crazy performance, then vanish to the back of the peloton...or worse, off the back.

there are multiple explanations possible, but you can bet that doping has had something to do with it.

maybe a silent ban.
maybe just a health-related need to tone it down (too many steroids can't be good for a woman of her age)
maybe what you say, that she felt the heat (a warning letter?)

Or possibly she had a hamstring injury and was seriously overtrained.

I know you much prefer the narrative that she was doped to the eyeballs but as has has been explained tim and again, she was already phenomenal at a very early age and across a range of cycling related sports. That in itself doesn't make her clean, but any "evidence" towards any wrongdoing is circumstantial at best (safe for Benotti's usual "she cycles, so she dopes, she wins, she most certainly dopes").

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...

Or possibly she had a hamstring injury and was seriously overtrained.

I know you much prefer the narrative that she was doped to the eyeballs but as has has been explained tim and again, she was already phenomenal at a very early age and across a range of cycling related sports. That in itself doesn't make her clean, but any "evidence" towards any wrongdoing is circumstantial at best (safe for Benotti's usual "she cycles, so she dopes, she wins, she most certainly dopes").

What do we have for Vos doping? Not much. Generally, the two things that I'm a bit uncomfy with are her acne and her training in SA. I admit that that's meager.
Btw, is there a Leinders link? Did she work with Geert? Honest question, I don't know.

For the silent ban, we have two or three indicators, or let's say things that require an explanation and that may feed rumors:
1. Her remarkable 'loss' at the women's road race 2014. Why tha *** didn't she sprint for the win there? It looked odd. She was strong in the finale, but just seemed to refuse to spring in the final meters.
2. The length and nature of her injury. How long has she been out? Overtrained? All very rare. This is allegedly a super athlete with certainly a super entourage. So that raises eyebrows.
3. In 2015, what races did she do? I think only cross and only in Belgium and the Netherlands.

Surely a silent ban is not the only, nor an ideal, explanation. But it could explain some of these facts. Maybe the positive had been disclosed to her before the 2014 worlds and she was 'kindly asked' not to win that finale. Maybe then she went through a process of asking the B-sample, maybe even some legal back and forths, and then, from April 2015, the silent ban?

This is her own statement:

Vos said last week in her blog on the RaboLiv website that medical tests had showed the injury had been caused by ‘overtraining’ and that complete rest was necessary to ensure she could return to full fitness in time for the 2016 season.
...
“The only thing that helps combat this [overtraining] is complete rest,” she wrote. “I then, with the doctors, took up to three months to fully rest. Then again I have undergone a series of medical tests and we can see if I have indeed made progress. At the moment I can do little else but wait.”
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/marianne-vos-returns-to-training-after-long-injury-lay-off-198710

That's vague at best.
Can medical tests 'show' overtraining? How?
Do we have any plausible precedents? I can't think of any.
(on a side, note "the doctors" (plural)...)

btw, while there's no evidence for silent bans in men's cycling, I think there were plenty of rumors for a silent ban for Longo.

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

...

Or possibly she had a hamstring injury and was seriously overtrained.

I know you much prefer the narrative that she was doped to the eyeballs but as has has been explained tim and again, she was already phenomenal at a very early age and across a range of cycling related sports. That in itself doesn't make her clean, but any "evidence" towards any wrongdoing is circumstantial at best (safe for Benotti's usual "she cycles, so she dopes, she wins, she most certainly dopes").

What do we have for Vos doping? Not much. Generally, the two things that I'm a bit uncomfy with are her acne and her training in SA. I admit that that's meager.
Btw, is there a Leinders link? Did she work with Geert? Honest question, I don't know.

For the silent ban, we have two or three indicators, or let's say things that require an explanation and that may feed rumors:
1. Her remarkable 'loss' at the women's road race 2014. Why tha **** didn't she sprint for the win there? It looked odd. She was strong in the finale, but just seemed to refuse to spring in the final meters.
2. The length and nature of her injury. How long has she been out? Overtrained? All very rare. This is allegedly a super athlete with certainly a super entourage. So that raises eyebrows.
3. In 2015, what races did she do? I think only cross and only in Belgium and the Netherlands.

Surely a silent ban is not the only, nor an ideal, explanation. But it could explain some of these facts. Maybe the positive had been disclosed to her before the 2014 worlds and she was 'kindly asked' not to win that finale. Maybe then she went through a process of asking the B-sample, maybe even some legal back and forths, and then, from April 2015, the silent ban?

This is her own statement:

Vos said last week in her blog on the RaboLiv website that medical tests had showed the injury had been caused by ‘overtraining’ and that complete rest was necessary to ensure she could return to full fitness in time for the 2016 season.
...
“The only thing that helps combat this [overtraining] is complete rest,” she wrote. “I then, with the doctors, took up to three months to fully rest. Then again I have undergone a series of medical tests and we can see if I have indeed made progress. At the moment I can do little else but wait.”
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/marianne-vos-returns-to-training-after-long-injury-lay-off-198710

That's vague at best.
Can medical tests 'show' overtraining? How?
Do we have any plausible precedents? I can't think of any.
And who's "the doctors" (plural)?

btw, while there's no evidence for silent bans in men's cycling, I think there were plenty of rumors for a silent ban for Longo.

That is a lot, a helluvalot of maybe's, if's and perhaps'. Conjecture with connecting non-existing dots. If we are going to argue cases in this fashion, there is really no use. Any ideas on the moon landing, the abominable snowman, area 52?

Occam's razor. I am not stating with any amount of certainty that she is clean. There is circumstantial evidence for both (being clean(wish) or being on PED's), but to conjure up a theory out of thin air on silent bans just because you apparently don't understand the intricacies of being overtrained is a stretch even for you. But hey, don't let me spoil the fun!

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...

Or possibly she had a hamstring injury and was seriously overtrained.

I know you much prefer the narrative that she was doped to the eyeballs but as has has been explained tim and again, she was already phenomenal at a very early age and across a range of cycling related sports. That in itself doesn't make her clean, but any "evidence" towards any wrongdoing is circumstantial at best (safe for Benotti's usual "she cycles, so she dopes, she wins, she most certainly dopes").

What do we have for Vos doping? Not much. Generally, the two things that I'm a bit uncomfy with are her acne and her training in SA. I admit that that's meager.
Btw, is there a Leinders link? Did she work with Geert? Honest question, I don't know.

For the silent ban, we have two or three indicators, or let's say things that require an explanation and that may feed rumors:
1. Her remarkable 'loss' at the women's road race 2014. Why tha **** didn't she sprint for the win there? It looked odd. She was strong in the finale, but just seemed to refuse to spring in the final meters.
2. The length and nature of her injury. How long has she been out? Overtrained? All very rare. This is allegedly a super athlete with certainly a super entourage. So that raises eyebrows.
3. In 2015, what races did she do? I think only cross and only in Belgium and the Netherlands.

Surely a silent ban is not the only, nor an ideal, explanation. But it could explain some of these facts. Maybe the positive had been disclosed to her before the 2014 worlds and she was 'kindly asked' not to win that finale. Maybe then she went through a process of asking the B-sample, maybe even some legal back and forths, and then, from April 2015, the silent ban?

This is her own statement:

Vos said last week in her blog on the RaboLiv website that medical tests had showed the injury had been caused by ‘overtraining’ and that complete rest was necessary to ensure she could return to full fitness in time for the 2016 season.
...
“The only thing that helps combat this [overtraining] is complete rest,” she wrote. “I then, with the doctors, took up to three months to fully rest. Then again I have undergone a series of medical tests and we can see if I have indeed made progress. At the moment I can do little else but wait.”
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/marianne-vos-returns-to-training-after-long-injury-lay-off-198710

That's vague at best.
Can medical tests 'show' overtraining? How?
Do we have any plausible precedents? I can't think of any.
And who's "the doctors" (plural)?

btw, while there's no evidence for silent bans in men's cycling, I think there were plenty of rumors for a silent ban for Longo.

That is a lot, a helluvalot of maybe's, if's and perhaps'. Conjecture with connecting non-existing dots. If we are going to argue cases in this fashion, there is really no use. Any ideas on the moon landing, the abominable snowman, area 52?

Occam's razor. I am not stating with any amount of certainty that she is clean. There is circumstantial evidence for both (being clean(wish) or being on PED's), but to conjure up a theory out of thin air on silent bans just because you apparently don't understand the intricacies of being overtrained is a stretch even for you. But hey, don't let me spoil the fun!

say that to the ex french minister of sports who just got her ass sued by Nadal.

In cycling, if there is smoke, it's usually because something's cooking.
again, is there a precedent for her Vos being "overtrained"? And for medical tests 'showing' this?
I'd like to know.
If we have plausible precedents, I'd be a lot less suspicious.

And again, the finale 2014, the way she lost there had me raising eyebrows immediately.

Fair enough, it's clutching at straws. But so is the 'overtrained' theory. If tests have shown it, well show us the tests.
If you wanna invoke occam's razor, in cycling, it mostly leads you to doping.
I can't say I find Vos' own explanation anywhere near satisfactory.

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

...

Or possibly she had a hamstring injury and was seriously overtrained.

I know you much prefer the narrative that she was doped to the eyeballs but as has has been explained tim and again, she was already phenomenal at a very early age and across a range of cycling related sports. That in itself doesn't make her clean, but any "evidence" towards any wrongdoing is circumstantial at best (safe for Benotti's usual "she cycles, so she dopes, she wins, she most certainly dopes").

What do we have for Vos doping? Not much. Generally, the two things that I'm a bit uncomfy with are her acne and her training in SA. I admit that that's meager.
Btw, is there a Leinders link? Did she work with Geert? Honest question, I don't know.

For the silent ban, we have two or three indicators, or let's say things that require an explanation and that may feed rumors:
1. Her remarkable 'loss' at the women's road race 2014. Why tha **** didn't she sprint for the win there? It looked odd. She was strong in the finale, but just seemed to refuse to spring in the final meters.
2. The length and nature of her injury. How long has she been out? Overtrained? All very rare. This is allegedly a super athlete with certainly a super entourage. So that raises eyebrows.
3. In 2015, what races did she do? I think only cross and only in Belgium and the Netherlands.

Surely a silent ban is not the only, nor an ideal, explanation. But it could explain some of these facts. Maybe the positive had been disclosed to her before the 2014 worlds and she was 'kindly asked' not to win that finale. Maybe then she went through a process of asking the B-sample, maybe even some legal back and forths, and then, from April 2015, the silent ban?

This is her own statement:

Vos said last week in her blog on the RaboLiv website that medical tests had showed the injury had been caused by ‘overtraining’ and that complete rest was necessary to ensure she could return to full fitness in time for the 2016 season.
...
“The only thing that helps combat this [overtraining] is complete rest,” she wrote. “I then, with the doctors, took up to three months to fully rest. Then again I have undergone a series of medical tests and we can see if I have indeed made progress. At the moment I can do little else but wait.”
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/marianne-vos-returns-to-training-after-long-injury-lay-off-198710

That's vague at best.
Can medical tests 'show' overtraining? How?
Do we have any plausible precedents? I can't think of any.
And who's "the doctors" (plural)?

btw, while there's no evidence for silent bans in men's cycling, I think there were plenty of rumors for a silent ban for Longo.

That is a lot, a helluvalot of maybe's, if's and perhaps'. Conjecture with connecting non-existing dots. If we are going to argue cases in this fashion, there is really no use. Any ideas on the moon landing, the abominable snowman, area 52?

Occam's razor. I am not stating with any amount of certainty that she is clean. There is circumstantial evidence for both (being clean(wish) or being on PED's), but to conjure up a theory out of thin air on silent bans just because you apparently don't understand the intricacies of being overtrained is a stretch even for you. But hey, don't let me spoil the fun!

say that to the ex french minister of sports who just got her ass sued by Nadal.

In cycling, if there is smoke, it's usually because something's cooking.
again, is there a precedent for her Vos being "overtrained"? And for medical tests 'showing' this?
I'd like to know.
If we have plausible precedents, I'd be a lot less suspicious.

And again, the finale 2014, the way she lost there had me raising eyebrows immediately.

Fair enough, it's clutching at straws.
But to invoke occam's razor, in cycling, it mostly leads you to doping.
I can't say I find Vos' own explanation anywhere near satisfactory.

Go google. You do it abundantly when you want to "proof" someone is doping. Do it now also and read up, before jumping to any conclusions.

And you state yourself you don't have the first clue of anything related to being overtrained yet you also state that you don't find her explanation in any way shape or form satisfactory. How can you possibly judge that if you don't have all the knowledge and information?

As to the bolded, that is just a "Benotti" in disguise ("She cycles, she dopes").

 

[sniper]

fair enough

 

[Tienus]

I find it hard to believe that a clean Vos can beat her cheating competition. However I cannot say it's impossible.

I find it totally unbelievable that a clean Vos can keep up with male elite pros.

In this video Adrie van Diemen tells she can produce 6,63 watt/kg and would be one of the best climbers in the pro peloton.
topic starts at 50:10
http://www.npo.nl/nieuwsuur/10-01-2012/NPS_1198489

 

[sniper]

Re:

I find it hard to believe that a clean Vos can beat her cheating competition. However I cannot say it's impossible.

I find it totally unbelievable that a clean Vos can keep up with male elite pros.

In this video Adrie van Diemen tells she can produce 6,63 watt/kg and would be one of the best climbers in the pro peloton.
topic starts at 50:10
http://www.npo.nl/nieuwsuur/10-01-2012/NPS_1198489

that's very funny, thanks.
Adrie van Diemen, nuff said. Rabo's exercise physiologyst during the Leinders era.

De toehoorders kregen gistermiddag college van ploegarts Geert Leinders en voedingsdeskundige Asker Jeukendrup. Tussendoor gaf inspanningsfysioloog Adrie van Diemen tekst en uitleg over melkzuurfrequenties.
http://www.nrc.nl/handelsblad/2000/01/20/de-pr-machine-van-rabo-draait-op-volle-toeren-7478966

btw, i don't think "doping yes/no" is the question wrt Vos.
I mean, Blijlevens, lol. (didn't recover well from his doping i must say having seen that vid)
The more interesting question is a possible pos test and corresponding silent ban.

Tienus, what's your view on the 2014 women worlds road race final?
I see thee options,
a. Vos chokes
b. Vos gives 100% but looses
c. Vos throws it

And imagine if those medical tests really did show "overtraining", and imagine she could just show the world that that's the case.

 

[sniper]

Re:

...
In this video Adrie van Diemen tells she can produce 6,63 watt/kg and would be one of the best climbers in the pro peloton.
topic starts at 50:10
http://www.npo.nl/nieuwsuur/10-01-2012/NPS_1198489

Yikes, just loving Van Diemen's hypocricy here for not calling out Vos.
Look what the same Van Diemen had to say about Horner:

Verschillende experts hebben in het Algemeen Dagblad vraagtekens gezet bij de prestaties van Chris Horner, de leider in de Vuelta. Volgens inspanningsfysioloog Adrie van Diemen trapt de 41-jarige Amerikaan verdacht hoge wattages. Afgelopen donderdag reed Horner op slotklim Pena Cabarga alle records uit de boeken met, naar het schijnt, 6,7 watt per kilogram lichaamsgewicht. Alles…

(boldface: according to Adrie van Diemen, the 41 year old American is pushing suspiciously high wattages.
http://www.wielerrevue.nl/tag/adrie-van-diemen/

 

[Tienus]

Good article, I like this one also:
http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4508/Sport/article/detail/1305580/2008/07/12/De-foefjes-van-Adrie-van-Diemen.dhtml

When I watched the 2014 race live I thought Marianne gave it all to stay ahead but got caught just before the finish. It looked liked she then decided to do the lead out for her team mate PFP. Could be money involved there. Anyway that's just how I experienced it at the time and I haven't really thought about it since.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Good article, I like this one also:
http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4508/Sport/article/detail/1305580/2008/07/12/De-foefjes-van-Adrie-van-Diemen.dhtml

When I watched the 2014 race live I thought Marianne gave it all to stay ahead but got caught just before the finish. It looked liked she then decided to do the lead out for her team mate PFP. Could be money involved there. Anyway that's just how I experienced it at the time and I haven't really thought about it since.

*** me.
good find.
amazing stuff.
"sure, sometimes the whole team has to go home sick because I tried something new and it didn't work, but that's part of the risks i'm allowed to take".
yikes.

 

[Benotti69]

'Hopefully we can again benefit from Jeroen's expertise' says Vos

The former Dutch racer, Jeroen Blijlevens, directed at both the women's Rabobank and men's Belkin teams before being pushed out of cycling three years ago after confessing to using EPO during his racing career in the late 1990s.

'expertise', sure Marianne pull the other one.

 

[GuyIncognito]

I'll admit the first words out of my mouth were 'F***ing Blijlevens? Really?'

But it still doesn't mean that much. Maybe she wasn't consulted.
It's not as such a damning indictment on her, personally. On the team as a whole, yes, definitely, but not so much on her.

Wonder what Scandolara will have to say. She tends to not mince words on doping, and she's contracted to that team next year.