I supported Lance Armstrong until...

[proffate]

Worth reading the comment section on this article: http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-860283

Another group who can't disclose Armstrong's fee.

$10k/person for breakfast and dinner. That must have been quite a spread.

 

[The Exorcist]

Worth reading the comment section on this article: http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-860283

Another group who can't disclose Armstrong's fee.

True they don't disclose the fee, but if they raised $6 m on armstrong's name then without armstrong there would be no $6m for cancer issues

Admit that it does kind of smell given what we know about him now, but it's all money for cancer in the end

 

[clotho2]

I have read some of the posts in this thread and it's my intention to read them all. However, some are heart-wrenching for me so it will take time, God willing. I appreciate your openness. I all empathize, deeply.

I'm posting a comment that I have posted in another site. The post is mainly a reaction to the interview lance did with Oprah Winfrey.

So, lance armstrong has said "Yes" to a series of opening questions from Oprah Winfrey concerning his use of PEDs to win seven straight Tours de France. In the interview which aired as a two parter on Oprah's network OWN January 17 & 18, 2013, armstrong gave affirmation to the world that he was indeed a liar, a cheater, and a doper who thought it right to dupe the public while stealing the single most prestigious cycling, if not sporting title.

During the entire interview the only smatthering of remorse came when he talke of his 13 year old son Luke's defense of him to others. Even I at the moment felt weepy; however, nt for lance, he brought it on himself. No, my sorrow was as it has been for years for his children who had to have been condemned to bear the humiliation and grief of being the children of the then much maligned and now confessed cheater.

Children should never have to bear the sins of their father, especially a 13 year old son who should have the greatest hero living in his home yet now must face a world knowing his father is nothing more than a doping cheater. So yes, I was sad for Luke and the 8 yr olds who are also old enough to comprehend hurtful words.

In the time that has passed since that interview one has to wonder, "What the hell is he thinking?" lance armstrong is still fighting the USADA rather than making some sort of headway in becoming the hero in Luke's eyes that Luke thought he was. And I would suspect a lot of the honest sport loving people of the world would also find something redeemable in lance armstrong.

Yet, the guy is fighting Tygart tooth and nail. So obviously his future is more important to him than the welfare of his children. At this point, nothing lance could ever lose is more important than the hero status in his children's, esp his 13 year old son luke's eyes.

So why did he do the interview? He said he's competitive and would love to, I guess, get back into competitions. NO WAY!!! lance armstrong should never be allowed to compete as a licensed athlete ever again. You've heard the adages... "You can't teach an old dog new tricks," "A leopard can't change it's spots," "Once a cheater, always a cheater." Well in the case of lance armstrong, I firmly believe it.

lance has proven that he is so competitive that he will do anything to win. Now, I don't think you readers should gather that my contempt starts and stops with lance armstrong. It doesn't! I have read and read and read article after article about sport doping and dopers. I've seen the names on the doping lists. I've seen the results of doping trials. So I know lance isn't IT. He's just it. One fish in a big POND.

I think lance wants back in because he misses the thrill of doping. I think that why they all do it. they're unwilling to go it alone. Just look at the report this wek about ARod possibly having his 270+ contract rescinded because he is still doping. Ray Lewis' name turns up on the list of that same Miami Dr. But these two are also just it. Not IT.

I said months ago that doping was rampant, and in most, if not all really competitive sports, and got a Bronx Cheer for it. I just left it because there was no arguing with so-called sport guys who love their heroes. The thing is, I loved them at one time myself. No more! I was rudely awakened to the fact of sport doping.

So not only your cyclists, but your tennis player, ballers, golfers, Golfers??? Yes, did I stutter? Swimmers, any sport where an athlete wants to edge out another there's a drug to help him/her/it do just that. And as I read in the comments of an article in the Miami New Times

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2013-01...6pLid=263248

the new method of undetectable doping is something called, "Gene Doping." Wow! Now that Chinese swimmer makes sense, even Andy Murray makes sense. And not only them, but a whole lot more so-called athletes who are getting better with age.

The worst part of all this is, well, second worst... the money someone like Arod got, that 275mil was like from people who fill the stands, and sponsor the teams, place the ads. Us. We are backing these dopers. The worst is that doping agencies espcially in Europe don't give a damn.

After the armstrong blow up, the governing body of cycling decided to set up a fact finding commission. It was dismantled this week because of all things UCI didn't want to cooperate with it. After 6 years waiting for the Operacion Puerto trial to begin, it does, and what do you think about them saying, "This trial isn't about doping." Well shut my mouth. I could have sworn the public health issue was the affect of drugs on the athletes that might cause a public health issue. How's that not about doping? Then there's the ubiquitous 6 months layoffs for getting popped. Even a two year suspension is only 6 mos served.

I guess we, the fans, will have to make a decision; do we say "Screw it" to sports, or do we accept that the players are and always will cheat... not every single one, because there will always be one or two that still have values, but the vast majority don't. Even the scared will be unafraid in the face of undetectable drugs. Right lance!

I just find it hard to be an ostrich. No this didn't start with lance and it won't end with him. However, as far as cycling goes... lance armstrong has a wealth of information. Anyone who read Tyler Hamilton's book, The Secret Race will attest to lance's knowledge of cyclists. armstrong will talk, and when he does, cycling will be in a world of hurt. Frankly, I still have no idea why businesses are still sponsoring these dopers. But then again, morals and values are on the decline world-wide. And with a salary more than the budget of some countries, the players are even more encouraged to win at all costs.

 

[CharacterFirst]

^^^^^ Fair enough. I basically agree.

 

[guncha]

I started watching TDF in 2000. Initially I rooted for Lance's rivals and was disappointed when he still won in 2003. But still... TDF 2003 was an amazing spectacle and over the years I wanted to experience this spectacle again and again. In 2003 I realized that all of them are amazing regardless doping, all of them deserve credit because even with the most sophisticated doping 99,9999% of people would not have achieved the results they did. To me riders played the game by existing rules and Lance was the one who did it the best.

I personally lost faith in "clean" sports after reading stories about doping culture in East Germany, I intuitively knew that all sports are more or less the same. That's why Lance's scandal was no surprise to me. I also don't believe that something has changed in TDF and I still think that doped guys win and will continue winning it. Therefore, I think I still continue supporting Lance...

 

[D-Queued]

I started watching TDF in 2000. Initially I rooted for Lance's rivals and was disappointed when he still won in 2003. But still... TDF 2003 was an amazing spectacle and over the years I wanted to experience this spectacle again and again. In 2003 I realized that all of them are amazing regardless doping, all of them deserve credit because even with the most sophisticated doping 99,9999% of people would not have achieved the results they did. To me riders played the game by existing rules and Lance was the one who did it the best.

I personally lost faith in "clean" sports after reading stories about doping culture in East Germany, I intuitively knew that all sports are more or less the same. That's why Lance's scandal was no surprise to me. I also don't believe that something has changed in TDF and I still think that doped guys win and will continue winning it. Therefore, I think I still continue supporting Lance...

Sure. At least in Hollywood you get an Oscar for Special Effects.

In cycling, we call it a Yellow Jersey.

As for your six sigma assessment, sure when you consider levels of obesity in the First World, there is probably less than a one in a million chance that someone else could pull the same stunt.

However, when it comes to active racers, if we were to dope them with the same level of pharmacology we could almost certainly gain similar results.

After all, it isn't like Lance was some sort of genetically gifted athlete. Just a really good liar, cheater, doper and doper responder.

Dave.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Sure. At least in Hollywood you get an Oscar for Special Effects.

In cycling, we call it a Yellow Jersey.

As for your six sigma assessment, sure when you consider levels of obesity in the First World, there is probably less than a one in a million chance that someone else could pull the same stunt.

However, when it comes to active racers, if we were to dope them with the same level of pharmacology we could almost certainly gain similar results.

After all, it isn't like Lance was some sort of genetically gifted athlete. Just a really good liar, cheater, doper and doper responder.

Dave.

2003 wasn't the mid 90s anymore. all the riders in front there in 2003 were very talented. one more then the other and some had more clinical advantages then others, but this wasn't f'n riis braking in the corners of hautacam anymore with the epo coming out of his mouth.

 

[D-Queued]

2003 wasn't the mid 90s anymore. all the riders in front there in 2003 were very talented. one more then the other and some had more clinical advantages then others, but this wasn't f'n riis braking in the corners of hautacam anymore with the epo coming out of his mouth.

No, it was a real donkey this time who had paid off Senior UCI executives, had positive tests hidden or deleted with fake TUE's, committed insurance/sport fraud (Thrift Drug $1m purse) and entered into another insurance contract on a fraudulent basis.

Can you see any difference there? Maybe just a small one or two?

Dave.

 

[MarkvW]

No, it was a real donkey this time who had paid off Senior UCI executives, had positive tests hidden or deleted with fake TUE's, committed insurance/sport fraud (Thrift Drug $1m purse) and entered into another insurance contract on a fraudulent basis.

Can you see any difference there? Maybe just a small one or two?

Dave.

With all the bad news about the UCI coming out, you might want to reappraise your opinion that Lance was the ONLY rider who had a corrupt relationship with the UCI.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

2003 wasn't the mid 90s anymore. all the riders in front there in 2003 were very talented. one more then the other and some had more clinical advantages then others, but this wasn't f'n riis braking in the corners of hautacam anymore with the epo coming out of his mouth.

Seriously, when did Iban Mayo break that record of Vaughters on Mont Ventoux?

Read up, watch races back, please, this is getting shamefull.

Edit:
Quite a story from Amsterhammer, pffff, bad one.

 

[Benotti69]

I guess we, the fans, will have to make a decision; do we say "Screw it" to sports, or do we accept that the players are and always will cheat...

I say "Screw it".....time to step back. Make them realise that we the fans wont accept 1% of it. No more hiding behind statements or outrage about doping, or that was the past and now is different.

 

[D-Queued]

With all the bad news about the UCI coming out, you might want to reappraise your opinion that Lance was the ONLY rider who had a corrupt relationship with the UCI.

The UCI is corrupt.

Any rider with a relationship has a corrupt relationship. Even so, how many other riders had Vrijman reports?

Add to Lance's differentiation with Bjarne and other plain old donkeys that they never sued a newspaper to 'keep them quiet'.

Armstrong is right out of a bad Mafia movie.

Dave.

 

[clotho2]

@D-Queued "After all, it isn't like Lance was some sort of genetically gifted athlete. Just a really good liar, cheater, doper and doper responder."


I totally agree with you. And that is what I don't get. Why is it that some still consider armstrong some kind of mega-cyclist when most of what he was came fom his doping regimen?

How many times have we heard or read that lance was mediocre at best. that maybe he would have lucked up and won one TDF. (Even that came from Tyler Hamilton, who still seems enthralled by armstrong,)

lance armstrong had enough funds to develop his own undetectable drugs. I for one believe the research he funded through LAF.org was was research on doping drugs. Once you pay a lab they work for you. Don't they??? I'm sure lance was introduced to all sorts of drugs while fighting cancer. They usually are desperate enough to want to try any and everything. I don't see lance being any different; in fact I think he'd be even more willing to try things.

The whole cancer things troubles me. Think about it! If lance did get cancer as a result of his doping then he scammed the public by asking us to fund his dot org. Can you image the nerve of that guy.

I wonder just how much of the monies raised for laf.org was actually used on live bodies.

I'm sorry, there's nothing about lance that demands we praise him.

 

[clotho2]

With all the bad news about the UCI coming out, you might want to reappraise your opinion that Lance was the ONLY rider who had a corrupt relationship with the UCI.

Again, I agree! It doesn't make sense that armstrong was the only one cozing up to UCI.You see UCI no doubt thinks of cycling as a business not a sport(albeit, it's a racket and neither) A business that has potential for enormous influence and capital. However, it first has to pull everyone in. And like any true sport, (Hah) it must have big names competing daily.

Now, the dopers got caught, or were snitched on. If for nothing else than to extort money from them. If UCI didn't have a big budget, where did they get money to do the things they did. Weren't the heads world travellers? Fine dining, fine lodging... did they drive Saabs? They has accustomed lifestyles. And then there were the day to day expenses of UCI. So where did the money come from if not the cyclists?

I still say the Hotline probably didn't yield but a handful of confessors and that's why they' re beating their chests about a T & R now. Also why the commision was dismantled. One hand washing the others. Hein & McQuaid are scoundrels. If armstrong ever gets the guts to become a hero in Luke's eye lots of riders will fall.

No, lance wasn't the only one in with UCI. Well, maybe lance's relationship was deeper but rest assured UCI used the peloton for its purposes.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Never ever supported that ******bag, after his first tour win, he came off as a condescending ***. I just had this feeling he wasn't legit. Turns out I was right

 

[Fatclimber]

....

How many times have we heard or read that lance was mediocre at best. that maybe he would have lucked up and won one TDF. (Even that came from Tyler Hamilton, who still seems enthralled by armstrong,)
....

It seems as if Hamilton's views on whether or not la could have won a Tour clean/clean peloton/etc have changed since his first 60 minutes interview. I don't understand how anybody could say he could win maybe 1,2, or 3 but not seven. You're either a contender or your not. Proclaiming he could win anything more than zero would put him in the champion category. And if he could win one, what would stop him from winning 7 against largely the same competition.

I don't see how anybody could "luck into" winning the Tour against superior climbers or TT'ers. Pereiro's situation doesn't apply either because in our hypothetical clean peloton Floyd wouldn't have gotten thrown out.

I'm not trying to get everybody speculating about this all over again, just trying to make the point he would either be a contender, much like lance the doper or a rider with no possibility of winning the GC. To say he could have won a few is merely an attempt to give him undeserved respect based on illogical reasoning.

 

[clotho2]

Well, look at Andy Schleck...

 

[Fatclimber]

Well, look at Andy Schleck...

Are you saying clean lance in a clean peloton would be the caliber of rider that Andy is in the current dirty field?

 

[Grand Tourist]

I was pretty confident he was 'at it' by the conclusion of the 2001 T de F. That was ridiculous.

 

[hektoren]

I've always loved Vittorio di Sica over Spielberg. Bertolucci and Jean-Pierre Jeunet over the larger-than-life american counterparts. Suspected LA at the WC in Oslo. Still thinks he was juiced.

 

[Benotti69]

@D-Queued "After all, it isn't like Lance was some sort of genetically gifted athlete. Just a really good liar, cheater, doper and doper responder."


I totally agree with you. And that is what I don't get. Why is it that some still consider armstrong some kind of mega-cyclist when most of what he was came fom his doping regimen?

How many times have we heard or read that lance was mediocre at best. that maybe he would have lucked up and won one TDF. (Even that came from Tyler Hamilton, who still seems enthralled by armstrong,)

lance armstrong had enough funds to develop his own undetectable drugs. I for one believe the research he funded through LAF.org was was research on doping drugs. Once you pay a lab they work for you. Don't they??? I'm sure lance was introduced to all sorts of drugs while fighting cancer. They usually are desperate enough to want to try any and everything. I don't see lance being any different; in fact I think he'd be even more willing to try things.

The whole cancer things troubles me. Think about it! If lance did get cancer as a result of his doping then he scammed the public by asking us to fund his dot org. Can you image the nerve of that guy.

I wonder just how much of the monies raised for laf.org was actually used on live bodies.

I'm sorry, there's nothing about lance that demands we praise him.

This is more obfuscation trying to turn people to accept the doping as a level playing field while trying to convince us of the socalled good work for cancer.

LieStrong does not fund cancer research. LieStrong does little but redirect those stupid enough to contact it to other service providers involved in cancer patient care.

LieStrong or Armstrong never asked people to go to the .org. It made a point of never putting the .org at the end of its branded word LIESTRONG so people would go to the .com which was a money maker.

Clotho02 is a troll.

 

[clotho2]

Are you saying clean lance in a clean peloton would be the caliber of rider that Andy is in the current dirty field?

Is your contention, anyone who can win one TDF can win two, three etc? What I'm saying about Andy is, I think we all agree Andy had more than a shot at winning TDF'10, save for a dropped chain; but he couldn't recover the time. (Same year btw, contador got popped) So yes, anyone can win one TDF, even lance and not be heard from again. So maybe lance had one clean TDF win in him, maybe that was even wishful thinking from Tyler, who knows.

The thing with lance was no one knew for sure except lance whether or not he came to TDF already doping. Me, I think he was doping as a swimmer. The guy's a consummate liar.

 

[clotho2]

This is more obfuscation trying to turn people to accept the doping as a level playing field while trying to convince us of the socalled good work for cancer.

LieStrong does not fund cancer research. LieStrong does little but redirect those stupid enough to contact it to other service providers involved in cancer patient care.

LieStrong or Armstrong never asked people to go to the .org. It made a point of never putting the .org at the end of its branded word LIESTRONG so people would go to the .com which was a money maker.

Clotho02 is a troll.

I thought the word Troll was used against those of the press. Oh wait, is it anyone who speaks their mind?

 

[Fatclimber]

[/color][/B]


Is your contention, anyone who can win one TDF can win two, three etc? What I'm saying about Andy is, I think we all agree Andy had more than a shot at winning TDF'10, save for a dropped chain; but he couldn't recover the time. (Same year btw, contador got popped) So yes, anyone can win one TDF, even lance and not be heard from again. So maybe lance had one clean TDF win in him, maybe that was even wishful thinking from Tyler, who knows.

The thing with lance was no one knew for sure except lance whether or not he came to TDF already dopping. Me, I think he was dopping as a swimmer. The guy's a consummate liar.

Not that I take any performance seriously since Mig stepped atop the podium, but I'd say a Giro 2nd & 2 tour 2nd's does not qualify as never being heard from again. And of course lets not forget that he is still riding, and as you pointed out, he won that Periero style.

And yes, my contention is that someone with the ability to win a TDF is capable of winning more. I don't see it being possible to luck out and win the TDF once if doping is eliminated.

Benotti sums it up better then I could with this:

This is more obfuscation trying to turn people to accept the doping as a level playing field

 

[clotho2]

Not that I take any performance seriously since Mig stepped atop the podium, but I'd say a Giro 2nd & 2 tour 2nd's does not qualify as never being heard from again. And of course lets not forget that he is still riding, and as you pointed out, he won that Periero style.

And yes, my contention is that someone with the ability to win a TDF is capable of winning more. I don't see it being possible to luck out and win the TDF once if doping is eliminated.

Benotti sums it up better then I could with this:

This is more obfuscation trying to turn people to accept the doping as a level playing field

I got you when it comes to possiblities of winning TDF one and again being more than luck. However, you hear it all the time in life as well as in sports. "It was just dumb luck." I will give you this much, it harder to win only once and by chance in a doped arena than it is in a dope-free arena.

I'm the type who firmly believes that in any year a team could luck up and go undefeated. It depends on the other team as much as your team. And a myriad of circumstances.

All that aside, people who know the athletic body and mentality said that of lance, (that he could maybe win one TDF) and while I simply repeated it, I agree. ANd don't ask if I am qualified to make such a statement because my answer will be a resounding, NOPE! It's my people experience.

IN RE Andy: Hmm... There is this saying in sports about 2nd meaning 1st loser or something like that. BTW, do you have a good guess as to why Andy was beaten by Cadel? What happened to that fire in his gut? I have a thought but ... oh shoot, I forgot my own topic title. So yeah, something happened to Andy that took a piece away from him. He should have won in '11 & '12 but he didn't. Just dumb luck I guess.