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Teams & Riders Ilan Van Wilder - Pale Rider

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Logic-is-your-friend

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Andre said:
Thank you for the article Logic. I also believe Van Wilder has a bright future. Maybe he'll get his chance at La Vuelta in 2023. I'm also thinking he could win some monuments as well.
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I think he should support Evenepoel at the Giro first, and try and be competitive at 1 week races in 2023. Evenepoel is starting his season in San Juan, i don't think he'll be going to Algarve this time as he claims to take it slowly early on. That would be an excellent test case for Van Wilder. It usually has a long TT. He should be able to do a top 5 or even podium there. He already finished top 20 in Algarve when he was 19 three years ago. If there had been a TT in Burgos, he could have been on the podium there already.

I heard his pre-season tests at Bakala were very impressive, so i hope he can have a full season without injuries or setbacks for the first time since turning pro. That would be a big step forward to begin with. Then maybe go for GC in the Vuelta in 2024.
 
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Berniece said:
Yeah he’s definitely a helper in the Giro, but why do you think he shouldn’t do the Vuelta too? There’s more than enough time between them to rest properly, and charge your batteries again. Do you think it will take such a big toll on his body?
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His development basically stalled while at Sunweb/DSM, he has not done nearly as many kms as he should have. Last year was also riddled with bad luck and few race days before the Vuelta. I think he would benefit more from doing a normal season for once (he hasn't had a normal season since turning pro imho) and that he might be better off doing more smaller races, after the Giro, than again not doing many races but the Vuelta on top of that. I think he might learn more from doing 4 one week races and some 1 day races, than doing 3 weeks of Vuelta, after having done the Giro.
 
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Andre said:
third place overall...not bad
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It's what i hoped for him, a podium. I had put Martinez, Küng and Ganna ahead of him before the race. Küng stayed under expectations, so he took that podium spot.

Van Wilder surprised me in a good way on Foia and especially Malhao, where i expected him to lose about 20s. His time on Malhao was 11s faster than Pogacar in 2019 as well as Evenepoel last year, which would have been faster than winner Higuita.

Subida Malhão por Pé do Coelho | Strava Ride Segment in

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But on the other hand, i also expected a slightly better TT, but with custom aerobars, which he still doesn't have for some reason, he would already win valuable seconds.
 
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Extinction said:
The article you posted which stated how much he doesn't want to be pigeonholed into a support role, because of his abilities and since he is such a "winner." No disrespect, mind you. I was just wondering what all the wins were?
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It's simply a liberal interpretation of the journalist that needs to be read within its context. Nobody has ever said Van Wilder has many wins, or wins easily. Clearly the journalist was only saying that in a sense of him having the skills to be a team leader, instead of a domestique. Someone who should get the chance to ride for himself. He could have said "top competitor" or "leader" instead of "winner" but i think it's clear that's what he meant. The article isn't about him being a serial winner, but about him having what it takes to be a stage racer in his own right.

However, of his generation, not a lot riders were able to win a lot as a junior because Evenepoel won everywhere he started. Van Wilder however, did amass more season points behind Evenepoel, than many other riders did at the top of the ranking in other years. So imagine had Evenepoel been a year older (in fact had Evenepoel been born 3 weeks earlier) and he didn't have to face him that year. He would indeed have had his share of wins and he would have had the same amount of hype as Uijtdebroeks for instance.

As a first year U23, he won the queen's stage of the Course de la Paix, which is considered to be the 3rd most prestigious stage race at that level. And he got on the podium of Tour de l'Avenir, which is considered the most prestigious stage race at that level. Behind riders who were 1 and 3 years older. To put that in context, he was the youngest and only 19 year old of the entire top 25. He was also the youngest on the podium of the 2020 ECC TT, and he was also the youngest in the top 10 of the 2019 ECC TT.

His pro career so far has been littered with bad luck. As a neopro he didn't get a lot of chances during covid season. A year later DSM royally F'ed him over by keeping him from races in the 2nd part of the season. He did however get two top 5 TT at WT level in the first part of the 2021 season. Considering he now is still only 22, it should tell you something. Last year he crashed out 3 times iirc, and he also had covid, which put him back early in the season. Little over a month or so before the Vuelta, he got sick again (not covid) which messed with his preparation for the Vuelta, and he had to do Burgos (which he finished 5th in GC) instead of the original schedule which would have had him on training camp at that moment.
 
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
It's simply a liberal interpretation of the journalist that needs to be read within its context. Nobody has ever said Van Wilder has many wins, or wins easily. Clearly the journalist was only saying that in a sense of him having the skills to be a team leader, instead of a domestique. Someone who should get the chance to ride for himself. He could have said "top competitor" or "leader" instead of "winner" but i think it's clear that's what he meant. The article isn't about him being a serial winner, but about him having what it takes to be a stage racer in his own right.

However, of his generation, not a lot riders were able to win a lot as a junior because Evenepoel won everywhere he started. Van Wilder however, did amass more season points behind Evenepoel, than many other riders did at the top of the ranking in other years. So imagine had Evenepoel been a year older (in fact had Evenepoel been born 3 weeks earlier) and he didn't have to face him that year. He would indeed have had his share of wins and he would have had the same amount of hype as Uijtdebroeks for instance.

As a first year U23, he won the queen's stage of the Course de la Paix, which is considered to be the 3rd most prestigious stage race at that level. And he got on the podium of Tour de l'Avenir, which is considered the most prestigious stage race at that level. Behind riders who were 1 and 3 years older. To put that in context, he was the youngest and only 19 year old of the entire top 25. He was also the youngest on the podium of the 2020 ECC TT, and he was also the youngest in the top 10 of the 2019 ECC TT.

His pro career so far has been littered with bad luck. As a neopro he didn't get a lot of chances during covid season. A year later DSM royally F'ed him over by keeping him from races in the 2nd part of the season. He did however get two top 5 TT at WT level in the first part of the 2021 season. Considering he now is still only 22, it should tell you something. Last year he crashed out 3 times iirc, and he also had covid, which put him back early in the season. Little over a month or so before the Vuelta, he got sick again (not covid) which messed with his preparation for the Vuelta, and he had to do Burgos (which he finished 5th in GC) instead of the original schedule which would have had him on training camp at that moment.
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To the bolded, I did get that actually. However, if the journalist put it in an odd manner (hence my moderately ironic perplexion and wry remark), it seems to me this was in part owing to Illan's forthrightness.

Now I suppose such candor could be construed as a positive. One feels confident in what one can achieve and states so openly to leave no room for misunderstandings. At the same time, however, I'm left wondering if he hasn't yet become the "winner" he's been made out to be, even if we know what the journalist meant, because he happened to come along in the shadow of another who actually is a winner, how can he liberate himself from a supporting role?

I'm not suggesting he won't or can't become a world beater, as age and evidently metrics are on his side, but how can he not provide Evenepoel with the his total support over the forseeable next GTs given the track records so far? I mean, he outright put it that he thinks he might be going ahead in GTs to support Remco or, in his own words, "have a free role." Is this what Patrick thinks, what the team envisions, will sanction? What does "free role" mean? I'm off helper duties and can go for my own victories, including GC? That's gonna be a tough one to manage, given the other team plans.

As I see it, for now at least, unless he can clearly out-perform Evenepoel in the big GT goals, then he's getting ahead of himself. The article says they are good friends. Well let's hope so, because they will need to get along and see eye to eye regarding how their careers at Soudal-QS will be conducted moving forward. The problem as I see it is that, since both are so young, nobody is retiring anytime soon and thus this could be a delicate thing to manage amicably and to each's satisfaction over the long haul. We've seen several times when two roosters in the same hen house covet coinciding ambitions and it always ends in divorce, with one or both partners left scorned. My two cents.
 
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Extinction said:
To the bolded, I did get that actually. However, if the journalist put it in an odd manner (hence my moderately ironic perplexion and wry remark), it seems to me this was in part owing to Illan's forthrightness.

Now I suppose such candor could be construed as a positive. One feels confident in what one can achieve and states so openly to leave no room for misunderstandings. At the same time, however, I'm left wondering if he hasn't yet become the "winner" he's been made out to be, even if we know what the journalist meant, because he happened to come along in the shadow of another who actually is a winner, how can he liberate himself from a supporting role?

I'm not suggesting he won't or can't become a world beater, as age and evidently metrics are on his side, but how can he not provide Evenepoel with the his total support over the forseeable next GTs given the track records so far? I mean, he outright put it that he thinks he might be going ahead in GTs to support Remco or, in his own words, "have a free role." Is this what Patrick thinks, what the team envisions, will sanction? What does "free role" mean? I'm off helper duties and can go for my own victories, including GC? That's gonna be a tough one to manage, given the other team plans.

As I see it, for now at least, unless he can clearly out-perform Evenepoel in the big GT goals, then he's getting ahead of himself. The article says they are good friends. Well let's hope so, because they will need to get along and see eye to eye regarding how their careers at Soudal-QS will be conducted. The problem, since both are so young, nobody is retiring anytime soon and so this could be tough to manage amicably and to each's satisfaction. My two cents.
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So, basically every rider in the world should ride for either Pogacar or Evenepoel as soon as they join that team. Ayuso and Almeida should no longer be able to ride their own races, because regardless of them being top 10 talents in the world, they are not as big a talent as Pogacar. Philipsen should not be allowed to ride for himself as long as he stays on the same team as Van der Poel. Etc.

Evenepoel is not going to be riding 3 GT's. As i already explained to you in the Evenepoel topic, their biggest sponsor has already said they do not want to put all their eggs in one basket (Evenepoel) and want the team to be competitive in more stage races with more riders than just Evenepoel. Now, unless they can buy out Ayuso or Uijtdebroeks, i'm not sure who you think those other riders should be. Unless you think they now have the budget to outright sign Pogacar or Vingegaard. Other than those guys, you could just as well try with Van Wilder, than you would with any other young GC rider out there, not already named.
 
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
So, basically every rider in the world should ride for either Pogacar or Evenepoel as soon as they join that team. Ayuso and Almeida should no longer be able to ride their own races, because regardless of them being top 10 talents in the world, they are not as big a talent as Pogacar. Philipsen should not be allowed to ride for himself as long as he stays on the same team as Van der Poel. Etc.

Evenepoel is not going to be riding 3 GT's. As i already explained to you in the Evenepoel topic, their biggest sponsor has already said they do not want to put all their eggs in one basket (Evenepoel) and want the team to be competitive in more stage races with more riders than just Evenepoel. Now, unless they can buy out Ayuso or Uijtdebroeks, i'm not sure who you think those other riders should be. Unless you think they now have the budget to outright sign Pogacar or Vingegaard. Other than those guys, you could just as well try with Van Wilder, than you would with any other young GC rider out there, not already named.
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To the bolded, who said that? Although what happens, and Almeida and Ayuso are cases in point, if you ride on Pogacar's team at the Tour or any other race he is participating in you will ride for him and that is that, unless Tadej decides otherwise or is off form. Whilst neither Ayuso nor Almeida have been as forthright in their stated ambitions, knowing full well that if they form part of the team that supports Pogacar that's what they will be doing until it's no longer necessary. Sure, the calendar is long and varried, so there are enough opportunities to go around in theory, but there is a hierarchy of objectives and the best means to achieve them.

My perplexion and the questions that arrise from it, therefore, stems from the fact that Soudal-QS is only in the transition phase of building a team that can possibly see a Belgian win the Tour again for the first time in four decades. But already we should be talking about "having more options" to play with? Call me crazy, but I'd have thought that first seeing the transition through successfully would be the absolute priority and then, of course, actually winning the Grande Bouclé. And I'd have thought the whole organization gives this precedence, before considering who might be allowed to have a "free role" on the team.

Precisely because Soudal-QS is playing catch-up to teams like Jumbo-Visma, UAE and Ineos in becoming a GT powerhouse, they can't yet, for example, send a Roglic to the Giro and a Vingegaard to the Tour, or again a Pogacar to the Tour and an Ayuso to the Vuelta, and still have the firepower to support Remco in his GT ambitions. So if Soudal-QS wants to not have "all their eggs in one basket" now in this sense, then Patrick better start writing some checks. Until he does that and builds more depth, you'd be crazy to have a loose canon with visions of grandeur in a GT in which Evenepoel is racing.
 
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Extinction said:
To the bolded, who said that? Although what happens, and Almeida and Ayuso are cases in point, if you ride on Pogacar's team at the Tour or any other race he is participating in you will ride for him and that is that unless Tadej decides otherwise or is off form. Sure, the calendar is long and varried, so there are enough opportunities to go around in theory, but there is a hierarchy of objectives and the best means to achieve them.

My perplexion and the questions that arrise from it, however, stems from the fact that Soudal-QS is only in the transition phase of building a team that can possibly see a Belgian win the Tour again for the first time in four decades. But already we should be talking about "having more options" to play with? Call me crazy, but I'd have thought that first seeing the transition through successfully would be the absolute priority and then, of course, actually winning the Grande Bouclé. And I'd have thought the whole organization gives this precedence, before considering who might be allowed to have a "free role" on the team.

Precisely because Soudal-QS is playing catch-up to teams like Jumbo-Visma, UAE and Ineos in becoming a GT powerhouse, they can't yet, for example, send a Roglic to the Giro and a Vingegaard to the Tour, or again a Pogacar to the Tour and an Ayuso to the Vuelta, and still have the firepower to support Remco in his GT ambitions. So if Soudal-QS wants to not have "all their eggs in one basket" now in this sense, then Patrick better start writing some checks. Until he does that and builds more depth, you'd be crazy to have loose canon in a GT in which Evenepoel is racing.
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Crazy? Having a back-up option in GC could offer significant tactical advantages. Maybe you didn't see how Vingegaard was able to beat Pogacar? Or how Bernal won the Tour? Also nobody said anything about when this should come to pass. Van Wilder didn't say he would want to lead a GT this year or the next. Soudal also didn't say how soon they want more options. So you are making a lot of assumptions, not only on Van Wilder's ambitions and when exactly in the future he expects to lead a team, but also on Soudal's timeschedule.

As for "who said that", you said the following:

I'm left wondering if he hasn't yet become the "winner" he's been made out to be, even if we know what the journalist meant, because he happened to come along in the shadow of another who actually is a winner, how can he liberate himself from a supporting role?

I'm not suggesting he won't or can't become a world beater, as age and evidently metrics are on his side, but how can he not provide Evenepoel with the his total support over the forseeable next GTs given the track records so far?
Click to expand...

So if that's not what you meant, i don't know how to interpret it.
 
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Bit of a non discussion this one isn’t it? There is plenty of options for the team working with Van Wilder and Evenepoel, and I dare say that the number of chances that Ilan will get as a leader are heavily dependent on the level he reaches.

If he is capable of maintaining the level he reached in Portugal over the next races then no team in the world would use him purely as a support rider. Of course if the team has to work with the current setup it does make sense to send van Wilder with Evenepoel to the GTs he is riding until they have more options to work with. In that case Ilan might end up being the final rider in support of Evenepoel, which, given he has the right level himself, could still mean he can go for top-10/top-5 in GCs under the right condition.

In this case we have seen many many examples of how this can turn out in recent years. So it’s not like the whole Evenepoel/van Wilder thing is an entirely new situation that has never been encountered before.
 
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Nobody is saying he should not get his chances, if his level is there, but that, in the meantime, maybe he should settle into the idea that for now (unless Evenepoel does not perform up to expectations and hopes) he'll be on support duties in the GTs they are riding together.

Since he went rather too quickly, if you ask me, from "I'm too talented and too ambitious to spend my career supporting someone else," to "maybe I'll be going to the GTs to ride for Remco or maybe I'll go with a free role," I was a bit like, whoa, wait a minute, now let's not get ahead of ourselves. One certainly hopes he doesn't expect to have a "free role" at the next Giro or at the Tour 2024, because if he does then that's crazy, I don't care what anybody says.

Of course I remember the two-option tactic between Bernal and Thomas, but this is a bad analogy, because Thomas was the established veteran with a Tour victory under his belt and many others in the service of Wiggins-Froome, whilst Bernal was the enfant terrible (in the new prodigy sense) who the team was building it's future around and made no mystery about it. Then the road, as always, dictated the law, but afterwards I seem to recall this created considerable tension when it came to negotiating Thomas's new contract. And speaking of Wiggins-Froome, do we really want that to play out again in the Belgian version (also considering Evenepoel is no Wiggins)? As far as Roglic and Vingegaard go on Jumbo-Visma, I'd say the dynamic was largely the same, only that Roglic and Vingegaard are like Thomas-Bernal 2.0 performance wise. And Jumbo-Visma are lucky in my opinion that Roglic crashed thus compromising his Tour, because that settled the matter without the potential for internal conflict that could have ruined Jumbo-Visma's triumph, with one neutralizing the other in the assault against Pogacar. And now, not surprisingly, Roglic isn't racing the Tour, because it's preferable to have one chief so everybody acts accordingly. Fortunately for Jumbo-Visma they can send one to the Giro and still have enough fire power at the Tour for the other, since keeping them together is messy.

Only when you have a veteran in his twilight and a young star on the rise is it unavoidable to have two chiefs, but this is never the most convenient approach. Too many roosters in the hen house inevitably causes conflict of interests. I also remember the case of a certain Hinault-Lemond. Sure it ended up being one of the most memorable of Tours, but it was a team disaster made worse by the treachery of a double-crossing ds. The aftermath was nervous burnout and thus an ill-conceived hunting outing, which led to the team's effective termination in the wake of the other's retirement. Here the situation is different, as both riders are young and in the early stages of their careers. So perhaps a better analogy is the internal clash that made it impossible for Lemond to remain on the same team as Fignon, which is the scenario I imagine here should Van Wilder expect to lead a GC on the team any time soon. Unfortunately, right now Soudal-QS doesn't have the luxury of depth to send two chiefs to two different GTs for GC, so one is necessarily going to have to support the other. Unless they plan on sending one of them to two GTs, but I don't think they would do that right now given their ages. But if and when they do, who and with what ambitions? So that begs to ask a couple of questions. How soon can Soudal-QS build a team with the kind of depth required to wage a two-GT assault with two separate riders? Secondly, when does Van Wilder expect to have the team for himself on certain truly big occassions? Two, three years? I sense that Patrick could have his work cut out for him managing this situation, like Guimard did back in the 80s. That's all I'm saying, not that "every rider in the world should (only) ride for Pogacar or Evenepoel."
 
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red_flanders said:
There’s not going to be much internal conflict when one rider is obviously stronger than the other, and that rider is the established leader. Which will be the case for the foreseeable future, whatever IVW’s ambitions might be.
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It is a big ask to tell someone they will have to basically give up their own ambitions in the long run.

I could see Van Wilder playing along this season, because he is still at a stage where he is developing. He has started this season very good and if he continues to improve he will naturally want more. His contract expires at the end of this year. Maybe a team will try to offer him a deal and tempt him to leave with a promise of leadership. Lefevre will need a much bigger budget to keep his riders and pay them to be happy with being a supporting rider for Remco. Thats what UAE, Jumbo and Ineos are doing. Signing and piling up on GC-riders that could easily have been leaders on another team. In a sense, Ineos has in a way already adopted a sort "wolf-pack" strategy how they go into most races. They have 3-4 for options in almost every race.
 
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