Immaturity will be Contador's downfall...

Page 6 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
dadoorsron said:
The team was doing fine prior to Contadors attack. He didn't counter anyones attack. He just rode off because he needs to seperate himself from his teammates because they will be the hardest ones to beat. Contador's actions made him look worse then any tactics armstrong used prior to his finishing win in 2005. Granted he never rode on a team that had this much strength. It takes a team to help win a tour. Just ask Ullrich, Evans about that. If you have No one to ride with you or help you or you have so much in fighting it blows the team apart. You see how many grand tours those two won.
Contador didn't do anything wrong other than maybe not counter-attacking sooner. Once the gloves come off on the mountain finish they are off. Expanding your lead against your rivals at minimal cost to himself and the team (he didn't have LA, LL or AK ride to exhaustion a la Discovery Channel/USPS). And just in case you didn't know this but Contador has won 3 Grand Tours. The problem is that Mr. Armstrong hasn't accepted reality. When you decide to join the team of the best stage racer in cycling, you aren't the leader no matter how many TDF's titles you won. As I said before, imagine Hincapie/Heras/Landis telling the press in 2004 that they were there to win the tour....

I'm done with this topic. Until Mr. Armstrong starts acting like a teammate, he will bear the fallout for his passive aggressive tactics.
 
Jul 7, 2009
189
0
0
Publicus said:
On point #1, I understood TFF to be saying the fact that Contador was able to get 21 seconds on the other GC contenders under the conditions tells you a great deal about his condition (i.e., strength). It wasn't a statement about whether or not Lance could have matched his acceleration (he couldn't but that's neither here nor there).

On your second point, I think you misunderstand the nature of this team. Levi, Kloden, Popo, Zubeldia, Paulhino and Khazak #1 are domestiques plain and simple. Lance hasn't accepted his role as a domestique quite yet, but eventually he will likely accept that reality. That being said, they aren't the team leaders and thus it's not a question of putting "time" into them. At the end of the day, they will put Contador's (or if Contador doesn't have it/falters and Lance does have it, Lance's) interest success first, as they should. When Lance put time into the GC rivals, he also put time into those same teammates and unfortunately his team leader.

As for the 2007 Tour, it was what it was. Contador won. Whether you think it was handed to him doesn't change the fact that he reached Paris faster than any of the other riders. He also won the Giro and the Vuelta in 2008. He's Astana's best chance at victory. I know that. You know that. The peleoton knows that. And Lance Armstrong knows that.
Johan the team director has said many time he has 4 cards to play. He has mentioned he has CO-leaders. armstrong and Contador.

Contadors acceleration is not in question. He does accelerate quickly. Armstrong did accelerate well 4 years ago. None of these stages will crown the tour winner. Stage 18 and stage 20 will sort the mess out. Armstrong looked fine today and by all accounts will look good in stage 9. Nothing will happen tomorrow even if some of the GC guys get dropped tomorrow there is 50 k to the finish line in a large group two minutes could be made up.

The other grand tours are an impressive accomplishment for contador. However, he won those events by paying attention to what Bruyneel was saying to him a big difference.
 
Jun 24, 2009
464
0
0
dadoorsron said:
. Now in my book Contador was handed the 2007 Tour. He didn't win it on the road and I would say that about anyone that won that race. The removal of a rider that had a 3 plus minutes on second place Rasmussen. Was given the race by actions taken by a team For good reason. Contador was not the best Climber in that race Rasmussen was.
You know what? you're right! BUT THAT WAS THREE YEARS AGO!!!!! And, in fact, he was handed a challenge, along with that gift. Stave off Cadel Evans, who was supposed to be a better time trialist at that time. And he rose to the challenge, and held onto the title. So, you've got to get over that.
But let's dwell on your point for a moment longer. Besides the fact that he has won the two other Grand Tours he's participated in, since that "fluke" TdF title. Maybe that is why he is so anxious and so hungry for the Title in France, this year. Maybe he feels that many view his previous win in France as a fluke. Which he probably wanted to rectify badly last year. But then as we all know, he was prohibited from particpating in the race last year and so he couldn't rectify that situation. Just maybe, he felt that '09 would be his chance to straighten this all out, once and for all. But then Lance came out of retirement. Are you foolish enough to think that he didn't see the handwriting on the wall, immediately???
Chew on all of that for a while.Oh, and while you gnash on all the Lance hype.
In 2003 I went to France to see Lance tie the 5 straight record. I was a Lance fan then, and I still admire him now. But I think AC is throwing excitement into this race, that we have all missed in the years that Lance was on the sidelines. The only thing is that, this time, Lance might end up on the short end of the stick.:cool:
 
dadoorsron said:
Johan the team director has said many time he has 4 cards to play. He has mentioned he has CO-leaders. armstrong and Contador.

Contadors acceleration is not in question. He does accelerate quickly. Armstrong did accelerate well 4 years ago. None of these stages will crown the tour winner. Stage 18 and stage 20 will sort the mess out. Armstrong looked fine today and by all accounts will look good in stage 9. Nothing will happen tomorrow even if some of the GC guys get dropped tomorrow there is 50 k to the finish line in a large group two minutes could be made up.

The other grand tours are an impressive accomplishment for contador. However, he won those events by paying attention to what Bruyneel was saying to him a big difference.
He does have 4 cards to play, but he has only one ace: Contador. There is no 21-A and 21-B. Just 21. There will be fireworks on the Tourmalet. One can only hope. We'll see who can handle multiple attacks....
 
May 26, 2009
3,687
1
0
Robert Merivel said:
Most of the time, when you are expressing yourself with objectivity, I agree whole heartedly, but sometimes you get a little strong with the doping thing. I guess the doping thing seems less of a big deal to me. I don't think Lance dopes but I don't have any proof. But thats another story for another forum. And Lance has his issues away from cycling but that's what makes it all so lively. Personalities, egos, the best athletes in the world at what they do. It's a circus, but it's fun and exciting. And we are all passionate about our special world of moving our bodies on some metal and rubber, and then there is the competitive side to all this. A wise man once said "Competition is for the Competent." Let's see...
Now keep your posts more like these we will still disagree with you, but you might get better answers and you might loose the nick ;)
 
Jun 9, 2009
140
0
0
BroDeal said:
So you expect Contador to wait until stage 20 and hope for the best instead of grabbing time when it is available?
I think he should have gone at the bottom of the climb of Stage 7 and ended all speculation right there.
 
Jun 9, 2009
140
0
0
elapid said:
Andorre Arcalis was not steep enough to make big time differences. Plus the headwinds did not favour individual riders making a break. It would have been much safer in the group. It is doubtful that Contador could have made more time on a mountain with an average grade of 4.6%. Ventoux and the ITT will be the big tests.
I think if he had taken off with 10k to go the Tour would effectively be over today. He's the best ITT and the best climber. Who could have kept up with him?
 
Jul 7, 2009
189
0
0
Publicus said:
Contador didn't do anything wrong other than maybe not counter-attacking sooner. Once the gloves come off on the mountain finish they are off. Expanding your lead against your rivals at minimal cost to himself and the team (he didn't have LA, LL or AK ride to exhaustion a la Discovery Channel/USPS). And just in case you didn't know this but Contador has won 3 Grand Tours. The problem is that Mr. Armstrong hasn't accepted reality. When you decide to join the team of the best stage racer in cycling, you aren't the leader no matter how many TDF's titles you won. As I said before, imagine Hincapie/Heras/Landis telling the press in 2004 that they were there to win the tour....

I'm done with this topic. Until Mr. Armstrong starts acting like a teammate, he will bear the fallout for his passive aggressive tactics.
Oh my god! lol you are a contador fanboy! Contador disobeyed team goals for the stage. Contador only changed time from his biggest threats his teammates. Yes I know he won 3. One was handed to him. The Giro the debate is open on the level of riders that ride the giro and the fitness levels they are at. A guy 4 years out of cycling with a healing collar bone finished 12th just 15 minutes off the lead. Pretty good for an old man that's riding 8 seconds off the yellow jersey. In armstrongs 7 wins the entire team knew that they were riding for Lance and they rode the race to help lance win. No individual goals in the month of july for any of the riders.

Until Contador starts acting like a professional and obeys team tactics for a race then he might get some respect from come cycling fans. Armstrong was playing a teammate because he didn't ride after contador when he took off to attack his team!
 
Jul 7, 2009
209
0
0
I think it will be an interesting final week ... who has the most left in the tank when it counts, who is riding into a peak.
 
Jul 7, 2009
209
0
0
Padeiro said:
Contador is the best ITT in the peloton? Really?
Ditto, and interesting. Do you remember when climbers got better at TT'ing, they got worse at climbing? And vice versa? Oops, I should likely be saying this in another section!
 
Mar 19, 2009
1,796
0
0
Futuroscope said:
2. who says you have to defend the yellow jersey?
I concur, they could just defend it quite badly, or maybe they think there was going to be breakaways for the rest of the tour:S

If this is true and they are not happy with contador then I think astana have gone mad, I moved recently so i was not keeping up to date with what was going on with the news but astana seemed to be in a bit of financial trouble when I left, surely having the yellow jersey would be good for them, or maybe not. But really these apparent tactics of riding uphill very slowly sound pretty stupid. A mountain top finish and you have the maybe the best climber on your team, the next two stages where nothing big is likely to happen, a rest day after that, and the team want this rider to take it easy incase they get the yellow jersey, it´s just a bit odd. Also i think if contadors team mates don´t help him because of this then they shouldn´t be at the tdf

Well i hope contador was watching die hard 3 the day before his attack and told the team to stick their well laid plan up their well laid *** :S


Although maybe it is all some game...
 
Jul 7, 2009
48
0
0
palmerq said:
I concur, they could just defend it quite badly, or maybe they think there was going to be breakaways for the rest of the tour:S

If this is true and they are not happy with contador then I think astana have gone mad, I moved recently so i was not keeping up to date with what was going on with the news but astana seemed to be in a bit of financial trouble when I left, surely having the yellow jersey would be good for them, or maybe not. But really these apparent tactics of riding uphill very slowly sound pretty stupid. A mountain top finish and you have the maybe the best climber on your team, the next two stages where nothing big is likely to happen, a rest day after that, and the team want this rider to take it easy incase they get the yellow jersey, it´s just a bit odd. Also i think if contadors team mates don´t help him because of this then they shouldn´t be at the tdf

Well i hope contador was watching die hard 3 the day before his attack and told the team to stick their well laid plan up their well laid *** :S


Although maybe it is all some game...
They don't want to have to defend the yellow all of next week, which makes sense since you still have the Alps, the ITT and Ventoux in store. It would be smart of Astana not to take yellow on SUnday.
 
Jun 18, 2009
2,079
1
0
dadoorsron said:
Oh my god! lol you are a contador fanboy! Contador disobeyed team goals for the stage. Contador only changed time from his biggest threats his teammates. Yes I know he won 3. One was handed to him.
Tell me again how LA acted like a profressional on stage 3 when Astana worked against AC, LL and AC? Do tell.

Sounds like AC has an entire spanish team to help him out. It's called Caisse D Epargne. See them chase down Evans today? For what reason?

AC has little need of LA, LL or AK at this point.
 
Jun 9, 2009
140
0
0
Padeiro said:
Contador is the best ITT in the peloton? Really?
Close enough. He would have at least a minute in hand, maybe 2 if he had launched sooner and Armstrong would probably be on a plane home. Astana could then focus properly on the job at hand. Contador was too timid, imo.
 
dadoorsron said:
Oh my god! lol you are a contador fanboy! Contador disobeyed team goals for the stage. Contador only changed time from his biggest threats his teammates. Yes I know he won 3. One was handed to him. The Giro the debate is open on the level of riders that ride the giro and the fitness levels they are at. A guy 4 years out of cycling with a healing collar bone finished 12th just 15 minutes off the lead. Pretty good for an old man that's riding 8 seconds off the yellow jersey. In armstrongs 7 wins the entire team knew that they were riding for Lance and they rode the race to help lance win. No individual goals in the month of july for any of the riders.

Until Contador starts acting like a professional and obeys team tactics for a race then he might get some respect from come cycling fans. Armstrong was playing a teammate because he didn't ride after contador when he took off to attack his team!
Not a fan boy. I try my best to argue from facts rather than my feelings as a fan. You have very little respect for Contador and his accomplishments, that's clear. He's the best stage racer in cycling. There's no question about that. He's riding for his 2nd tour title. That is his goal. That is apparently Lance's goal too. Pretending that Lance is playing a selfless teammate strains credulity. If he was, then he wouldn't be playing media games.

Maybe 6 years ago LA could have kept up with Contador in the mountains, but not two days ago. And I think LA has been putting in a brave performance (great job on the TTT, he was digging hard for the jersey even though JB didn't want it). That being said, he's not the man anymore.
 
Jul 7, 2009
189
0
0
racerralph said:
You know what? you're right! BUT THAT WAS THREE YEARS AGO!!!!! And, in fact, he was handed a challenge, along with that gift. Stave off Cadel Evans, who was supposed to be a better time trialist at that time. And he rose to the challenge, and held onto the title. So, you've got to get over that.
But let's dwell on your point for a moment longer. Besides the fact that he has won the two other Grand Tours he's participated in, since that "fluke" TdF title. Maybe that is why he is so anxious and so hungry for the Title in France, this year. Maybe he feels that many view his previous win in France as a fluke. Which he probably wanted to rectify badly last year. But then as we all know, he was prohibited from particpating in the race last year and so he couldn't rectify that situation. Just maybe, he felt that '09 would be his chance to straighten this all out, once and for all. But then Lance came out of retirement. Are you foolish enough to think that he didn't see the handwriting on the wall, immediately???
Chew on all of that for a while.Oh, and while you gnash on all the Lance hype.
In 2003 I went to France to see Lance tie the 5 straight record. I was a Lance fan then, and I still admire him now. But I think AC is throwing excitement into this race, that we have all missed in the years that Lance was on the sidelines. The only thing is that, this time, Lance might end up on the short end of the stick.:cool:
I do agree with you and I see were you are coming from. I like Cadel evans and he has gotten better over the years. I still think he is more a media made contender and has benefited from the doping scandals and riders getting excluded from the races. In 2005 Cadel was 11 minutes off the pace. I think the race came to cadel I dont think cadel got much better then 11 minutes off the pace. Contador is a up and coming star. The problem I have and I guess its all the team sports I have played. You don't go against your coach. Now if Johan and the entire team said Contador had the green light in stage 7 I would be right here saying that Armstrong should work for second place. But since the kid went off on his own I have a problem with is actions. that makes me look at the entire situation and not give him to much credit. I do give him credit for his 3 grand tour wins and I really think armstrong should of tried to sweep all three grand tours.
 
dadoorsron said:
The problem I have and I guess its all the team sports I have played. You don't go against your coach. Now if Johan and the entire team said Contador had the green light in stage 7 I would be right here saying that Armstrong should work for second place. But since the kid went off on his own I have a problem with is actions. that makes me look at the entire situation and not give him to much credit. I do give him credit for his 3 grand tour wins and I really think armstrong should of tried to sweep all three grand tours.
I guess this is where all of the disagreement flows from. JB himself said there was no specific plan, but that they would cover the attacks when they came. If someone felt good and could put time into the other contenders, they should figure out amongst themselves (Contador/Armstrong). That's pretty much what happened. If you can't accept that, then let's just agree to disagree because that's a pretty significant point.
 
Jul 7, 2009
189
0
0
Publicus said:
Not a fan boy. I try my best to argue from facts rather than my feelings as a fan. You have very little respect for Contador and his accomplishments, that's clear. He's the best stage racer in cycling. There's no question about that. He's riding for his 2nd tour title. That is his goal. That is apparently Lance's goal too. Pretending that Lance is playing a selfless teammate strains credulity. If he was, then he wouldn't be playing media games.

Maybe 6 years ago LA could have kept up with Contador in the mountains, but not two days ago. And I think LA has been putting in a brave performance (great job on the TTT, he was digging hard for the jersey even though JB didn't want it). That being said, he's not the man anymore.
In 2005 Alberto Contador was 1 Hour 3 minutes and 25 seconds behind Armstrong I don't think Contador could hang with armstrong. Has he made progress sure. Has armstrong aged and slowed more then likely. However, you are arguing your opinion of the events that happened in your point of view of the outcome of the stage.I see it as wasting energy and going against team plans and goals. you see it as gaining time on his rivals (mostly his teammates) and now leads his teammate by 2 seconds. Contador is a very talented rider and has won 3 grand tours. Thats impressive. However, you still think armstrong didn't go with Contador because he couldn't. again you haven't made a good arguement for chasing down your own teammate. By not doing so Armstrong looks like the team player not Contador. Armstrong a 7 time tour winner should be given the respect of such accomplishment from the team and every rider on that team. Even the best stage rider on the team (Contador). Armstrong respected the actions of Contador by not riding after him or telling Kloden and Levi to ride after him. Contador is the one that looks foolish and hearing from Johan, Levi, and Lance it seems clear that the team was riding as a team and contador is riding his own race.
 
Mar 19, 2009
1,796
0
0
Padeiro said:
They don't want to have to defend the yellow all of next week, which makes sense since you still have the Alps, the ITT and Ventoux in store. It would be smart of Astana not to take yellow on SUnday.
They dont have to kill themselves to keep it away from some breakaway guy, if it was a dangerous guy they´d be chasing him with out without the yellow jersey anyway :S and surely columbia would be trying to get wins for the sprinter like last week, and haven´t astana been on the front like all the time anyway. It´s just odd when you want the best climber in the race to go slowly up the hills incase he goes into the lead.
 
Jul 7, 2009
189
0
0
Publicus said:
I guess this is where all of the disagreement flows from. JB himself said there was no specific plan, but that they would cover the attacks when they came. If someone felt good and could put time into the other contenders, they should figure out amongst themselves (Contador/Armstrong). That's pretty much what happened. If you can't accept that, then let's just agree to disagree because that's a pretty significant point.
contador doesn't speak english and you rarely see him next to lance talking or anything. so I don't think there was any talk about, hey ride up the road I got your back. It was a young rider doing something stupid.
 
Jul 7, 2009
48
0
0
Publicus said:
I'm think s/he was talking about amongst the GC contenders.
Even among the GC contenders that's a bit of a stretch. I think over a 40K TT for example Cadel and LL and possibly even AK are better than AC. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that he's a bad TT'er, but I wouldn't go as far as to call hiim the best among the contenders (see Vuelta 2008). I think the ITT in week 3 will be very telling. I think this race is way from over and it's not even a 2 horse race (AC v. LA). It's very possible we could get to the ITT with all the Astanas within 1:30-2:00 of each other and that could make for some very interesting racing. I would love to see AC, LA, LL, AK all within 2 mins of each other by the ITT and just have a shootout then and on the Ventoux. We need a kamikaze attack on Stage 17 a la FLandis in 06 (well, without the testosterone though) with 4 cat 1 climbs and a cat 2 and the Colombiere only 14K from the finish, I would love to see someone just say to hell with this and go balls out. But then again you have the ITT the next day so I don't know who would do it (hence the kamikaze so they wouldn't give a ****)
 
dadoorsron said:
In 2005 Alberto Contador was 1 Hour 3 minutes and 25 seconds behind Armstrong I don't think Contador could hang with armstrong. Has he made progress sure. Has armstrong aged and slowed more then likely. However, you are arguing your opinion of the events that happened in your point of view of the outcome of the stage.I see it as wasting energy and going against team plans and goals. you see it as gaining time on his rivals (mostly his teammates) and now leads his teammate by 2 seconds. Contador is a very talented rider and has won 3 grand tours. Thats impressive. However, you still think armstrong didn't go with Contador because he couldn't. again you haven't made a good arguement for chasing down your own teammate. By not doing so Armstrong looks like the team player not Contador. Armstrong a 7 time tour winner should be given the respect of such accomplishment from the team and every rider on that team. Even the best stage rider on the team (Contador). Armstrong respected the actions of Contador by not riding after him or telling Kloden and Levi to ride after him. Contador is the one that looks foolish and hearing from Johan, Levi, and Lance it seems clear that the team was riding as a team and contador is riding his own race.
I don't recall Alberto being the team leader in 2005. Do you? What a ridiculous comparison.

I didn't say anything about why Lance didn't go. I know why he didn't go. The same reason that Alberto and the other 6 Astana members didn't form a echelon on Stage 3 and work with the other GC teams to pull Lance back. You don't help chase down your teammates and I would never make that argument. What I said in response to your implication that Lance could have chased him down but held back is that even if Lance wanted to chase him down, I don't think he could. Never expected Lance to do anything other than mark the other GC contenders once Contador flew away.

As for Lance's accomplishments, he's given his due respect. That doesn't mean he's not expected to put in his work to help the team leader. If he's not up to the task, then he should drop out. But that's what he bargained for when he decided to come out of retirement and join a team with the best stage racer in cycling.

I'm going to leave the plan/no plan, JB, LL, LA comments alone. It's clear we are reading the same statements differently and aren't going to agree on what was intended.
 
dadoorsron said:
contador doesn't speak english and you rarely see him next to lance talking or anything. so I don't think there was any talk about, hey ride up the road I got your back. It was a young rider doing something stupid.
LOL. I don't think JB was expecting them to have a consultation on the mountain. You know who is strong. It was clear Contador was the stronger man on that mountain. When he went, no one could follow. And Lance was a man of his word (he pretty much said those exact words after Stage 6).

It's clear you don't like Contador or think the young whipper snapper needs to give more deference to Lance. Unfortunately, Lance has shown in words and deeds that he doesn't respect Contador or his position as team leader. So he's responding on the road, which is the only thing Lance will respect.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY