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Immaturity will be Contador's downfall...

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Mar 18, 2009
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blaxland said:
All well and good "riders are pussies"But you cant win the tour without a team and if you dont ride like a team ,simple you loose.Probably best to sit down,shut up and follow team orders i say

Again, what were the team orders? Bruyneel said after stage 7: "This morning, we didn't give any specific instructions. I just told them [Contador and Armstrong] to talk to each other, and do what they have to do." Sounds like Contador followed team orders to a tee.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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elapid said:
You honestly think that Contador hasn't shown he is the stronger rider? Mr. Timms is spot on:
Stage 1: ITT - Contador 22 seconds faster than Lance
Stage 7: Mountain stage - Contador 21 seconds faster than Lance

Now I am not a Lance hater. I admire him for his skills, determination and achievements. I think what he has achieved in his comeback, considering his age and time away from professional cycling, is quite remarkable. But I am not blinded by either hate or love enough not to be realistic.



Now you're just being an a-s-s. If you don't have the chops to back up your arguments, then you shouldn't be posting. I do race road and it does not take a genius to interpret quotes from Bruyneel, Contador and Armstrong. When Bruyneel says in the morning there was no plan, and then says afterwards “We didn’t have a specific plan to attack, our plan was to maintain our collective strength first and wait for attacks from the others. Alberto counter-attacked after an attack, our plan had been for the riders to communicate and respond. I had no race radio at that time or TV, so it was something they decided themselves." And then Armstrong contradicts this by saying Contador wasn't playing to the plan, then alarm bell start to ring. Remember it was also Bruyneel and Armstrong who said at the start of the TdF that they will support the strongest rider. Few would argue Armstrong is a stronger rider than Contador based on his ITT performance and ability to make 21 seconds on the GC contenders on such a mild grade in the first mountain stage. There is still two weeks to go, so Armstrong has time to prove himself, but Contador did not act against the team orders (at least according to Bruyneel's quotes from yesterday) and he was just trying to put time into his other rivals. Armstrong can sulk all he likes, but there are two men on that team who can win the TdF and I very much doubt either will roll over and give up for the other. That doesn't make Armstrong right and Contador wrong, or vice versa. They are co-team leaders and they both have to prove they deserve the leadership.

Can you make a strong argument as to why Lance should be team leader based on his current performance?

I have thought about what you have said. And I have thought about this race, a lot. Before it started I wanted Lance to win, that is the truth. Since the race has evolved, I have mixed emotions about the out come. I think without question AC has physical abilities beyond all the rest. But he seems to lack other skills. In particular leadership qualities. When Lance first announced his return to Astana, AC seemed "jittery" about the proposal. He seemed to express concern that Lance was coming in to take over what had originally been set up for him. Maybe that was a fair fear. But it seemed over time that he never appeared to be confident in being proactive in a leadership position/role. He seemed, imo, wimpy. That wimpy side seems to be an emotion that he can not contain. LA is analytical in his methodology and preparation, and even though we would all agree that LA has his issues regarding ego, he understands how the team works. Until AC learns to contain himself by following what is best for the team, I don't see why he should be given the leadership role. As long as AC pushes that envelope he will get resistance. The whole thing is in AC's hands. AC in yellow is not an absolute. But if AC were to skillfully show balance in his actions he at least would have one foot in the door. In the mean time, I would never count Lance out. He knows how to do it. And if he peaks at the right time, as Basso said, we will see the "Beast" come out. I guess the ultimate question might be, what do the other seven think and who do they support?
 
blaxland said:
All well and good "riders are pussies"But you cant win the tour without a team and if you dont ride like a team ,simple you loose.Probably best to sit down,shut up and follow team orders i say

And this goes equally for one Lance Armstrong. In this instance he followed team orders. As a result the team put another 21 seconds into Evans, Sastre, A Shleck and the other GC candidates. I would say LA and the other Astana riders should be happy . . . for a relatively easy mountain stage they actually had something to show for it.

LA needs to get with the program and recognize that his best days are behind and put his considerable talents to the best use of the strongest teammember (Contador). Just like he asked Heras, Landis and others to do for him over 7 straight years, he should be prepared to do so for Contador.

It really is that simple.
 

Eva Maria

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May 24, 2009
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The Hog and Oedipus have a monopoly on immature behavior at the tour. banning reporters, whining endlessly, their game is geting old

Contador is clearly the strongest rider, not just on the team but in the race. when the Hog said “We didn’t have a specific plan to attack, our plan was to maintain our collective strength first and wait for attacks from the others".

translation: keep the pace low so old man Armstrong doesn't get dropped.
 
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Robert Merivel said:
I have thought about what you have said. And I have thought about this race, a lot. Before it started I wanted Lance to win, that is the truth. Since the race has evolved, I have mixed emotions about the out come. I think without question AC has physical abilities beyond all the rest. But he seems to lack other skills. In particular leadership qualities. When Lance first announced his return to Astana, AC seemed "jittery" about the proposal. He seemed to express concern that Lance was coming in to take over what had originally been set up for him. Maybe that was a fair fear. But it seemed over time that he never appeared to be confident in being proactive in a leadership position/role. He seemed, imo, wimpy. That wimpy side seems to be an emotion that he can not contain. LA is analytical in his methodology and preparation, and even though we would all agree that LA has his issues regarding ego, he understands how the team works. Until AC learns to contain himself by following what is best for the team, I don't see why he should be given the leadership role. As long as AC pushes that envelope he will get resistance. The whole thing is in AC's hands. AC in yellow is not an absolute. But if AC were to skillfully show balance in his actions he at least would have one foot in the door. In the mean time, I would never count Lance out. He knows how to do it. And if he peaks at the right time, as Basso said, we will see the "Beast" come out. I guess the ultimate question might be, what do the other seven think and who do they support?

That is the most reasonable post I have ever seen by you, sincerely.

Here is my question, when has Lance ever treated Contador like a respected teammate? I point to a couple of twitter incidents and his propensity to speak publicly about him in sideways inferences. Lance and Bruyneel have shown that there is no reason for Contador to trust them. Stage 3 was a clear indication that they desire Lance in yellow more than Contador. From Bruyneel's position, it probably has more to do with marketing than desire to see him win. For Armstrong, it is the other way around.

Again, the smartest way for a weaker rider (at this point Lance) to beat a slightly better rider (at this point Contador) if you are on the same team, is to get yellow and then require capitulation to time honored tactics. Also, you do this in a very public manner. Something in which Mr Armstrong excels.
 
Robert Merivel said:
I have thought about what you have said. And I have thought about this race, a lot. Before it started I wanted Lance to win, that is the truth. Since the race has evolved, I have mixed emotions about the out come. I think without question AC has physical abilities beyond all the rest. But he seems to lack other skills. In particular leadership qualities. When Lance first announced his return to Astana, AC seemed "jittery" about the proposal. He seemed to express concern that Lance was coming in to take over what had originally been set up for him. Maybe that was a fair fear. But it seemed over time that he never appeared to be confident in being proactive in a leadership position/role. He seemed, imo, wimpy. That wimpy side seems to be an emotion that he can not contain. LA is analytical in his methodology and preparation, and even though we would all agree that LA has his issues regarding ego, he understands how the team works. Until AC learns to contain himself by following what is best for the team, I don't see why he should be given the leadership role. As long as AC pushes that envelope he will get resistance. The whole thing is in AC's hands. AC in yellow is not an absolute. But if AC were to skillfully show balance in his actions he at least would have one foot in the door. In the mean time, I would never count Lance out. He knows how to do it. And if he peaks at the right time, as Basso said, we will see the "Beast" come out. I guess the ultimate question might be, what do the other seven think and who do they support?

The problem with your analysis is that you are ignoring (willfully I might add) the considerable lengths Mr. Armstrong has gone to destablise this situation. Mr. I'm Here to Win. Mr. Alberto is the Leader for Now. Lance has being waging psychological warfare through the media because he recognizes that Contador has his number where it counts on the road. So does the young man seem distrustful of his teammates? Turn the question around and ask when have they demonstrated commitment to him (and that includes LA)?

He understands how the team works, just like Lance does. Lance would have never tolerated someone with Contador's talent on his previous Tour teams because it would have been a threat to his overall leadership. Like I've said before, if Lance wasn't committed to supporting Contador as Astana's GC candidate, he should have formed his own team or signed with another squad. He chose Astana and so he needs to tow the team line. It's not about him. It's not his time. If Alberto falters, well then he can pick up the reins. Until then, he needs to be doing whatever he can to increase Contador's chances of winning. And that includes shutting the f*ck up with all of his passive aggressive psycho-babble.

Imagine Heras saying he had come to the Tour to win....
 
Jul 9, 2009
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elapid said:
Again, what were the team orders? Bruyneel said after stage 7: "This morning, we didn't give any specific instructions. I just told them [Contador and Armstrong] to talk to each other, and do what they have to do." Sounds like Contador followed team orders to a tee.

you have to realize that blaxland is saying this: 'i want lance to win and i want contador to hold back so lance can win'.
 
blaxland said:
Because professional atheletes are paid to follow orders thus the name professional...

Actually the order was not to take yellow. So Contador took matters into his own hands to make sure that no one from the team took yellow (and according to LL that was the plan). So as I said before, this admonishment should be directed at Lance Armstrong.
 
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blaxland said:
Because professional atheletes are paid to follow orders thus the name professional...

No, professional athletes are paid to win. Something Mr Contador is more capable of doing than is Mr Armstrong. 2nd ain't so bad, cheer up!
 
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Futuroscope said:
you have to realize that blaxland is saying this: 'i want lance to win and i want contador to hold back so lance can win'.

Clear, crystal, precise.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Publicus said:
The problem with your analysis is that you are ignoring (willfully I might add) the considerable lengths Mr. Armstrong has gone to destablise this situation. Mr. I'm Here to Win. Mr. Alberto is the Leader for Now. Lance has being waging psychological warfare through the media because he recognizes that Contador has his number where it counts on the road. So does the young man seem distrustful of his teammates? Turn the question around and ask when have they demonstrated commitment to him (and that includes LA)?

He understands how the team works, just like Lance does. Lance would have never tolerated someone with Contador's talent on his previous Tour teams because it would have been a threat to his overall leadership. Like I've said before, if Lance wasn't committed to supporting Contador as Astana's GC candidate, he should have formed his own team or signed with another squad. He chose Astana and so he needs to tow the team line. It's not about him. It's not his time. If Alberto falters, well then he can pick up the reins. Until then, he needs to be doing whatever he can to increase Contador's chances of winning. And that includes shutting the f*ck up with all of his passive aggressive psycho-babble.

Imagine Heras saying he had come to the Tour to win....

You blew the top off with that one. Tip o the hat.
 
Jeebus! Has Robert the Muppet and his ilk even looked at this years course? This year's course is utter rubbish. Maybe we will get some attacks downhill on the run-ins to the finish from mountain tops--if we are lucky as fans--but barring that these are the realistic places to gain time for the GC.:

Stage 1) Short time trial
Stage 4) Team time trial
Stage 7) Moderate mountain finish
Stage 15) Moderate mountain finish
Stage 18) Medium length individual time trial
Stage 20) Real mountain finish

This course offers few opportunities to take time. If Contador would have followed Armstrong across the line on stage seven then half those opportunities would have been gone and he would be twenty seconds down.

Leaving everything to stage 18 and 20 is foolish. Contador needs to gain whatever time he can because he could always have a slightly off day on one of those two stages or Armstrong could have a great day. Armstrong might very well be able to follow the pace to Verbier. On the very moderate time trial course Armstrong, with the advantage of starting after Contador, could hold onto his lead over the Spaniard. Who in their right mind wants to leave the entire Tour up to one stage? Anything could happen.

Passing up the chance to take time on stage 7 makes no sense whatsoever, and that is not delving into the team politics of who should be the leader. Contador now has a good chance of starting the ITT last, so he will know Armstrong's intermediate times. He just stacked the odds in his favor.
 
BroDeal said:
Jeebus! Has Robert the Muppet and his ilk even looked at this years course? This year's course is utter rubbish. Maybe we will get some attacks downhill on the run-ins to the finish from mountain tops--if we are lucky as fans--but barring that these are the realistic places to gain time for the GC.:

Stage 1) Short time trial
Stage 4) Team time trial
Stage 7) Moderate mountain finish
Stage 15) Fairly moderate mountain finish
Stage 18) Medium length individual time trial
Stage 20) Real mountain finish

This course offers few opportunities to take time. If Contador would have followed Armstrong across the line on stage seven then half those opportunities would have been gone and he would be twenty seconds down.

Leaving everything to stage 18 and 20 is foolish. Contador needs to gain whatever time he can because he could always have a slightly off day on one of those two stages or Armstrong could have a great day. Armstrong might very well be able to follow the pace to Verbier. On the very moderate time trial course Armstrong, with the advantage of starting after Contador, could hold onto his lead over the Spaniard. Who in their right mind wants to leave the entire Tour up to one stage? Anything could happen.

Passing up the chance to take time on stage 7 makes no sense whatsoever, and that is not delving into the team politics of who should be the leader. Contador now has a good chance of starting the ITT last, so he will know Armstrong's intermediate times. He just stacked the odds in his favor.

It's all about what is best for Lance Armstrong.
 
Thoughtforfood said:
Clear, crystal, precise.

I dont want lance to win "go baby schleck"thats who i think will win.Contadors problem is that he doesnt follow orders even if its for the best of the team....Professionals are not just paid to win there paid to act professional on and off the bike.So who is being a team player now....not Contador
 
May 14, 2009
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blaxland said:
Because professional atheletes are paid to follow orders thus the name professional...

Contador went to Astana to win TDF, not to serve Lance's desire!

Bruyneel agreed, even after Lance return, now he has to kept his promise! But I never have confidence with a such guy
 
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blaxland said:
I dont want lance to win "go baby schleck"thats who i think will win.Contadors problem is that he doesnt follow orders even if its for the best of the team....Professionals are not just paid to win there paid to act professional on and off the bike.So who is being a team player now....not Contador

Now, tell me how Mr Twitter has acted professional and you will have a point.
 
blaxland said:
I dont want lance to win "go baby schleck"thats who i think will win.Contadors problem is that he doesnt follow orders even if its for the best of the team....Professionals are not just paid to win there paid to act professional on and off the bike.So who is being a team player now....not Contador


Ah so that's what this is about . . . Contador left dust in Baby Schleck's face on Arcalis and you are feeling a little salty. :p All makes sense now.
 
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Watching Versus BLOATED 8pm coverage. Lets see if they show the LL interview they did this AM. So everyone knows, it was NOT the one posted yesterday and seen by most. It was another one which LL revealed the "real" tactics.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Robert Merivel said:
I have thought about what you have said. And I have thought about this race, a lot. Before it started I wanted Lance to win, that is the truth. Since the race has evolved, I have mixed emotions about the out come. I think without question AC has physical abilities beyond all the rest. But he seems to lack other skills. In particular leadership qualities. When Lance first announced his return to Astana, AC seemed "jittery" about the proposal. He seemed to express concern that Lance was coming in to take over what had originally been set up for him. Maybe that was a fair fear. But it seemed over time that he never appeared to be confident in being proactive in a leadership position/role. He seemed, imo, wimpy. That wimpy side seems to be an emotion that he can not contain. LA is analytical in his methodology and preparation, and even though we would all agree that LA has his issues regarding ego, he understands how the team works. Until AC learns to contain himself by following what is best for the team, I don't see why he should be given the leadership role. As long as AC pushes that envelope he will get resistance. The whole thing is in AC's hands. AC in yellow is not an absolute. But if AC were to skillfully show balance in his actions he at least would have one foot in the door. In the mean time, I would never count Lance out. He knows how to do it. And if he peaks at the right time, as Basso said, we will see the "Beast" come out. I guess the ultimate question might be, what do the other seven think and who do they support?

I think everything you say is correct. Lance is a very good leader, particularly when the team is built around him like in the US Postal and Discovery days. I am also by no means ruling him out of winning the Tour - he is only 2 seconds behind and riding strongly. I also agree with you about Contador - he does react emotionally and makes silly tactical errors. However, I am not sure whether a professional team needs a dictatorial leader like Lance or a leader who leads by example like Contador, despite questions over his decision making skills. Lance's wins usually relied heavily on the team, whereas Contador seems to be able to do more by himself. This may favour Contador if/when it comes down to team divisions.

As you say, who are the other seven men in the team going to support? Bruyneel gave Contador a nod before the TdF started by selecting Sergio Paulinho, who was preferred by Contador, rather than Lance's man Chris Horner. This selection alone made me think that the team was going to be divided. My predictions: Levi and Popovych for Lance; Zubeldia, Paulinho and Muravyev for Contador; and no idea about Kloden and Rast.

Who knew we would agree over so many things?!
 
Jul 9, 2009
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blaxland said:
I dont want lance to win "go baby schleck"thats who i think will win.Contadors problem is that he doesnt follow orders even if its for the best of the team....Professionals are not just paid to win there paid to act professional on and off the bike.So who is being a team player now....not Contador

no contadors problem is that lance and JB are treating him with no respect! lance and JB has created this situation.
 

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