That's detailed intelligent analysis that everyone can get behindDear Wiggo said:And like a number of other things you have claimed over the past 12 months or so, you are wrong.
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That's detailed intelligent analysis that everyone can get behindDear Wiggo said:And like a number of other things you have claimed over the past 12 months or so, you are wrong.
Dear Wiggo said:In Menchov's case, it was a BP violation, right?
Parker said:You miss the point. None of what you say re. Menchov was made publicly available. But the verdict is not doubted. But other, less palatable verdicts are.
(And I don't doubt it either)
There's nothing extraordinary about any of it though. Someone screwed up at work is not extraordinary.Dear Wiggo said:Let me bitesize it for you: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Parker said:There's nothing extraordinary about any of it though. Someone screwed up at work is not extraordinary.
Parker said:You miss the point. None of what you say re. Menchov was made publicly available. But the verdict is not doubted. But other, less palatable verdicts are.
The Menchov verdict, with no evidence, is never doubted, because it fits with internet opinion (always guilty). The Impey verdict is challenged because it does not.
I'm banging my head against a wall here because none of you want to listen. I have no opinions, just guesses. I defer to the experts. Others reject the experts and fight for their opinion, solely because it fits their agenda.
Dear Wiggo said:In Menchov's case, it was a BP violation, right?
So the panel look at his values and say - looks like doping to me.
* Menchov takes some EPO or similar
* Menchov removes some blood
* Menchov adds some blood
Impossible to prove these, but the evidence is simple - the BP. Asking for one of those as evidence is never going to happen. Even JV is scared to release a clean domestique rider's Giro based BP as evidence to support his alleged clean rider's GT win.
However, I would love this evidence - be great to have. Even asked for it. But there's an element of personal privacy too yeah?
In this case, with Impey, they have accepted that
* the chemist had a customer's order before doing Daryl's
* the chemist wore no gloves or if he did, he did not change them
* the chemist's order creation protocol does not include washing his hands between orders, or even rinsing them or wiping them on his jeans or a towel
* the order of the preceding customer was probenecid
* the chemist had to physically construct the order, rather than grabbing a bottle of pills off the shelf
* the chemist then had to physically construct Impey's order, stick a few capsules into a bottle or something
* that there was sufficient dust on his hands, that made it into these capsules, Impey used the capsules and did not think it strange there was already dust on them
Now, as well as all this, they are asking us to either
1. accept the chemist's version of events - like his memory is photographic and flawless OR
2. they have some sort of paper trail proving at least the timeline as a possibility
There are also privacy issues - noone wants to broadcast to the world that they have gout or similar, perhaps.
But the evidence that proves the points above is going to be receipts, and they are easily photographable and postable on the web.
Right?
I mean there's nothing simpler. Happens all the time (taking photos of things and posting them to the web) and there is no interpretation required - unlike BP readings.
Here's the thing:
Menchov doping seems really believable.
The chemist story, with the capsules and the dust and what not? Good grief.
If you can't see one looks fanciful and one looks believable, particularly given the results Menchov had, and the era he raced, then there is no point in furthering the discussion.
Tonton said:Seems to me that the key words are transparency..
TailWindHome said:Still with the 'hands'?
It's like you haven't read any of the thread.
Later, the pharmacist found some capsules and called Impey, who went in the afternoon to buy them.
Shortly before the pharmacist served Impey, he had dispensed Probenecid to another customer. His hands had contaminated Impey’s capsules. At the hearing, till slips showing time and purchase from the pharmacy convinced the hearing Impey had not ingested the substance on purpose.
Dear Wiggo said:Did you or someone else know more than the Cape Times?
TailWindHome said:SAIDS statement
http://www.drugfreesport.org.za/201...endent-tribunal-on-daryl-impey-doping-charge/
Impey’s defense team stated that the pharmacy in question confirmed in evidence that they had sold Probenecid to a customer two hours prior to selling empty gelatin capsules to Daryl Impey and that on both occasions the products were dispensed using the same pill-counter.
Dear Wiggo said:He's preparing remedies on or over the bench, then just throwing capsules down on same bench to count them. Then putting them into a container. Who even does that? So you have a container containing capsules and another container to put them in, but instead of counting them into the empty container, you drop them on a dirty counter and then what, scrape them into the empty container, or pick them all up again, one by one, to put them in the empty container.
And this is believable?
TailWindHome said:You're making stuff up now.
Stuff you make up to embellish the story makes it less believable yes.
Maybe he picks his nose while he's doing it too?
Dear Wiggo said:In the second instance, you could say - hey man a pill-counter is not a counter (bench) where people prepare pills, it's a machine that counts pills.
King Boonen said:The pill-counter should be cleaned after each use. In reality they probably just get a visual inspection and that's it. Most tablets are pretty solid and you hardly get any dust whatsoever. The pharmacist is also ultimately responsible, so he should be in pretty serious trouble.
It still doesn't account for the fact that it seems ridiculous to buy gelatine capsules individually rather than just as a bag.
We need to know what level was detected. Without that it's worse than guessing really.
King Boonen said:They're not always a machine. In fact I'd guess that a lot of pharmacies do it by hand on a tray. The machines tend to be for counting out large numbers of pills.
Dear Wiggo said:As for your personal attack.
TailWindHome said:At no point have I attacked you personally
You asked "Did you or someone else know more than the Cape Times?"
I provided a link to the original statement and the quote from it.
You then decided to embellish the story using phrases highlighted in bold. I pointed this out.
If you feel I've attacked you personally that's your issue.
TailWindHome said:You're making stuff up now.
Stuff you make up to embellish the story makes it less believable yes.
Maybe he picks his nose while he's doing it too?
Dear Wiggo said:You are persisting with the "made stuff up" vs what I have very clearly shown was an error on my part in thinking a "pill counter" was a counter - ie a bench?
Really?
Someone admits a mistake and you continue on as if they are still making the same mistake.
Gotcha.
If we were in a restaurant or at a party and you overheard me making a mistake and proceeded to talk like that to me (was he picking his nose as well?) your girlfriend would be kicking you under the table. If I then admitted my mistake but you continued to talk to me like I was continuing in my error, despite acknowledging it, she'd be walking away.
TailWindHome said:This is just silly.
You accused me of making a personal attack - I didn't
We'll move on.
TailWindHome said:What you guys mean by transparency and how it would differ from 'retrial' by journalist and forum would make an interesting thread.
I fear your calls for transparency veer into the latter.
'We got it right with Lance - we'll decide who dopes'
Benotti69 said:And there you have it, the myth that only Lance doped and the rest are all cleans.