Indurain - Am I assuming correctly?

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Bet you know who their doc was Jeff?

It aint all black and white.

To say Miguel was a victim of his time is a crime, he was one of the first, with some others.

 

[Saint Unix]

Re: Re:

Indurain is a prime example of what EPO can do for a rider. Sure, he was already a world class talent. EPO allowed him to haul his huge carcass over mountains quickly enough to keep riders like Pantani in check.

Very funny that you really believe that Pantani wasnt on the same as Indurain.

I'm not following. If Pantani was the fastest there ever was on the climbs and had to use a bucketload of EPO to accomplish that, the odds are quite slim on Indurain being clean when he was keeping him close enough in the mountains to pound him on the TTs, wouldn't you say? If you factor in he fact Indurain and Pantani were like Cancellara and Quintana in build, the sheer ludicrousness of what Indurain was doing becomes even more apparent.

 

["Jeff"]

Re:

Bet you know who their doc was Jeff?

It aint all black and white.

To say Miguel was a victim of his time is a crime, he was one of the first, with some others.

Well they say Banesto was a client of Conconi.

My username is obvious, I was a big fan of Jean-Francois Bernard, who was a big part of that team. Personally I always felt his results got worse after 1992 and he couldnt do crap anymore. He even had to go after 1994. Bernard was the first one who called out Juan José Cobo after his Vuelta win in 2011 too.

 

[No_Balls]

Re: Re:

The thing with Indurain is that everybody at his time was on the same stuff as him, so he won everybody in the same conditions. .

The argument of “same level playing field” amongst cheats in cycling needs to stop. I dont understand why people keep saying this. Than you just dont understand it IMO.

Like someone said, I am really curious when Indurain started with EPO. Personally I always had the feeling it wasnt since early 1992.[/quote]

I would say 1990. Massive jump in performance (should have won the Tour that year if it wasnt for Delgado) from previous seasons in not only GT-riding but he started to win classics also.

Whats more telling is that Ferrari joined Banesto this year too.

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

The thing with Indurain is that everybody at his time was on the same stuff as him, so he won everybody in the same conditions. .

The argument of “same level playing field” amongst cheats in cycling needs to stop. I dont understand why people keep saying this. Than you just dont understand it IMO.

Like someone said, I am really curious when Indurain started with EPO. Personally I always had the feeling it wasnt since early 1992.

I would say 1990. Massive jump in performance (should have won the Tour that year if it wasnt for Delgado) from previous seasons in not only GT-riding but he started to win classics also.

Whats more telling is that Ferrari joined Banesto this year too.[/quote]That would surprise me but of course possible.

I just think the argument that Indurain had a massive jump in performance (1990), so that must have been because of EPO is a bad argument. I see a massive jump in 1992, when he became inhuman.

Indurain was always considered a talent. He won the Tour de l'Avenir (the amateur race with the Vredeskoers in those days). He finished 17th in the Tour of 1989 and carried a lot more kilo's compared to 1990 and later on. He already won time trials in 1986. He won the Tour of Catalunya in 1988 etc etc.

He could climb and he could deliver a perfect TT. Every rider should get the opportunity to improve, Indurain too.

 

[No_Balls]

Re: Re:

The thing with Indurain is that everybody at his time was on the same stuff as him, so he won everybody in the same conditions. .

The argument of “same level playing field” amongst cheats in cycling needs to stop. I dont understand why people keep saying this. Than you just dont understand it IMO.

Like someone said, I am really curious when Indurain started with EPO. Personally I always had the feeling it wasnt since early 1992.

I would say 1990. Massive jump in performance (should have won the Tour that year if it wasnt for Delgado) from previous seasons in not only GT-riding but he started to win classics also.

Whats more telling is that Ferrari joined Banesto this year too.[/quote]That would surprise me but of course possible.

I just think the argument that Indurain had a massive jump in performance (1990), so that must have been because of EPO is a bad argument. I see a massive jump in 1992, when he became inhuman.[/quote]

Not an argument as i honestly just guessing without any details to bring to the table. Just connecting the dots

You see a massive jump in 1992? Well, i see the same between -89 and -90 where he went from pack-fodder to a rider who was widely accepted as the moral winner of Tour de France. And as i dont really have any information (and i guess you dont either) it is simply speculation. We dont know if they were experimenting or was putting something else in the coctail for that 1992 Tour which was his best TT-year of the rest. Experimenting like all the stuff Bjarne/Telekom needed to break the Da Vinci-code.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

Bet you know who their doc was Jeff?

It aint all black and white.

To say Miguel was a victim of his time is a crime, he was one of the first, with some others.

Well they say Banesto was a client of Conconi.

My username is obvious, I was a big fan of Jean-Francois Bernard, who was a big part of that team. Personally I always felt his results got worse after 1992 and he couldnt do crap anymore. He even had to go after 1994. Bernard was the first one who called out Juan José Cobo after his Vuelta win in 2011 too.[/quote]Sorry, I was referring to Lotto 1995 with Geert Lienders as a doc.

Not all black and white...

 

[Berzin]

These doping doctors aren't geniuses. It's to be expected that a rider of Indurain's build would benefit moreso from a combo of EPO and testosterone than someone like Pantani. Armstrong proved this-he did not have the build for climbing but the added horsepower he derived from doping made him better than his competitors, but then again they weren't all on the same regimen.

What we need to consider is not how good doctors like Conconi and Ferrari were, but how bad all the other doping doctors were in comparison to those two. The dropoff even from Ferrari to Fuentes seemed to be pretty immense in terms of expertise.

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

The thing with Indurain is that everybody at his time was on the same stuff as him, so he won everybody in the same conditions. .

The argument of “same level playing field” amongst cheats in cycling needs to stop. I dont understand why people keep saying this. Than you just dont understand it IMO.

Like someone said, I am really curious when Indurain started with EPO. Personally I always had the feeling it wasnt since early 1992.

I would say 1990. Massive jump in performance (should have won the Tour that year if it wasnt for Delgado) from previous seasons in not only GT-riding but he started to win classics also.

Whats more telling is that Ferrari joined Banesto this year too.

That would surprise me but of course possible.

I just think the argument that Indurain had a massive jump in performance (1990), so that must have been because of EPO is a bad argument. I see a massive jump in 1992, when he became inhuman.[/quote]

Not an argument as i honestly just guessing without any details to bring to the table. Just connecting the dots

You see a massive jump in 1992? Well, i see the same between -89 and -90 where he went from pack-fodder to a rider who was widely accepted as the moral winner of Tour de France. And as i dont really have any information (and i guess you dont either) it is simply speculation. We dont know if they were experimenting or was putting something else in the coctail for that 1992 Tour which was his best TT-year of the rest. Experimenting like all the stuff Bjarne/Telekom needed to break the Da Vinci-code.[/quote]Yes we must specualate regarding doping but we dont need to speculate about results, something you ignore for whatever reason.

Again, Indurain was no pack fodder and every rider improves in the early years. I dont think its highly strange to see an improvement from 17th overall to moral winner in 1990.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

[quote=""Jeff"":3ei1q0lx]
The argument of “same level playing field” amongst cheats in cycling needs to stop. I dont understand why people keep saying this. Than you just dont understand it IMO.

Like someone said, I am really curious when Indurain started with EPO. Personally I always had the feeling it wasnt since early 1992.

I would say 1990. Massive jump in performance (should have won the Tour that year if it wasnt for Delgado) from previous seasons in not only GT-riding but he started to win classics also.

Whats more telling is that Ferrari joined Banesto this year too.

That would surprise me but of course possible.

I just think the argument that Indurain had a massive jump in performance (1990), so that must have been because of EPO is a bad argument. I see a massive jump in 1992, when he became inhuman.[/quote]

Not an argument as i honestly just guessing without any details to bring to the table. Just connecting the dots

You see a massive jump in 1992? Well, i see the same between -89 and -90 where he went from pack-fodder to a rider who was widely accepted as the moral winner of Tour de France. And as i dont really have any information (and i guess you dont either) it is simply speculation. We dont know if they were experimenting or was putting something else in the coctail for that 1992 Tour which was his best TT-year of the rest. Experimenting like all the stuff Bjarne/Telekom needed to break the Da Vinci-code.[/quote]Yes we must specualate regarding doping but we dont need to speculate about results, something you ignore for whatever reason.

Again, Indurain was no pack fodder and every rider improves in the early years. I dont think its highly strange to see an improvement from 17th overall to moral winner in 1990.[/quote]

Indurain a 'moral winner'. NEVER.

 

[robow7]

Whenever this comes up, I always ask, what rider of his weight even to this day has ever climbed that well, day after day? He probably could produce decent watts even without the juice but carrying an extra 10 kilos up those mountains is "not normal"

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

The thing with Indurain is that everybody at his time was on the same stuff as him, so he won everybody in the same conditions. But it has never been proved that Indurain doped (which i think he probably did), but nobody can say the same with the greatest Eddy Merckx, who was caugh in more than an occasion.

Indurain was caught. He tested p for Salbutamol.

On that topic, what do people think of that incident. Was it not doping related? Was Mig lucky to get off?

 

[No_Balls]

Re: Re:

Jeff: There are no better way of measuring effects of the supposed "prep" then measuring the results. Something you did when setting the EPO-starting date to 1992 when he took a huge jump in time trials towards the rest. Well the problem with that is that we dont know, either, how much, or indeed how little, the contenders took hence the difference. This is why doping is such a let-down, we cant really believe anything.

The Hitch:

Indurain was caught. He tested p for Salbutamol.

On that topic, what do people think of that incident. Was it not doping related? Was Mig lucky to get off?

Of course it was doping-related since Salbutamol is doping-classed (helps you build muscles f.e) and banned in France. Mig had permission to use it though as he reportedly suffered from asthma. Notable asthmatics besides Mig are Ullrich, Gonzalez de Galdeano and...Froome.

Of course it will give riders an unfair advantage when they could in fact use legal doping for the sake of their health. Same goes for skiing where the monster Björgen suffers from asthma and has permission to use Salbutamol.

 

[Berzin]

False equivalency. Salbutamol is nowhere near the game changer a regimen of EPO, testosterone, HgH and cortisone are.

And Indurain wasn't "caught" using this medication. It was in his system and the powers that be came up with an excuse. Therefore, no suspension.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re:

Whenever this comes up, I always ask, what rider of his weight even to this day has ever climbed that well, day after day? He probably could produce decent watts even without the juice but carrying an extra 10 kilos up those mountains is "not normal"

Indurain is probably the heaviest GT winner. Maybe there is a graph somewhere that list the GT winners w.r.t weight.

 

[42x16ss]

Simple, excellent natural TT engine + EPO = monster. Good thing he's not around now, imagine if he was the same but 10-15 kgs lighter

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re:

Simple, excellent natural TT engine + EPO = monster. Good thing he's not around now, imagine if he was the same but 10-15 kgs lighter

Tony Martin or Cance but no more

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

Re: Re:

Simple, excellent natural TT engine + EPO = monster. Good thing he's not around now, imagine if he was the same but 10-15 kgs lighter

Tony Martin or Cance but no more

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Simple, excellent natural TT engine + EPO = monster. Good thing he's not around now, imagine if he was the same but 10-15 kgs lighter

Tony Martin or Cance but no more

You reckon? I'd have said closer to 2009 Wigans climbing with 2012 Wigans TT.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

miguel indurain larraya

as it stands
quite the impressive palmeres

why would you then remove another 10-15kgs from this frame
if at all possible

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

miguel indurain larraya

as it stands
quite the impressive palmeres

why would you then remove another 10-15kgs from this frame
if at all possible

Just trying to picture how he'd go if he had to get around the bio passport and went on the Sky secret sauce.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

picture this

he would look like christopher froome's long lost brother

 

[No_Balls]

Re:

Wiggins? Lol. Mig was already like the mothership of mutants. He is the E in E.T. Heavy frame or not.

http://www.fietsica.be/Grand_Tour_Champions.pdf

http://www.wheelsuckers.co.uk/m/blogpost?id=6480556%3ABlogPost%3A45057

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re: Re:

Simple, excellent natural TT engine + EPO = monster. Good thing he's not around now, imagine if he was the same but 10-15 kgs lighter

Tony Martin or Cance but no more

You reckon? I'd have said closer to 2009 Wigans climbing with 2012 Wigans TT.

Ok agree but how do you maintain the same power when there is a weight loss of 10-15 kgs. Wont there be power loss as well?

 

[Saint Unix]

Re: Re:

Ok agree but how do you maintain the same power when there is a weight loss of 10-15 kgs. Wont there be power loss as well?

There should be a power loss, yes, but Froome is podiuming flat time trials these days, so physics have clearly gone out the window.

Imagine Indurain on The Dawg's programme. Sub-30 minute Alpe d'Huez? Hell yeah!