Indurain - Am I assuming correctly?

[JackRabbitSlims]

there are limits
to what the heart
and lungs can do

even with the aid of peds

read
the sports gene
by david epstein

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

The thing with Indurain is that everybody at his time was on the same stuff as him, so he won everybody in the same conditions. .

The argument of “same level playing field” amongst cheats in cycling needs to stop. I dont understand why people keep saying this. Than you just dont understand it IMO.

Like someone said, I am really curious when Indurain started with EPO. Personally I always had the feeling it wasnt since early 1992.[/quote]

Agreed. But you nailed it, they don;t understand, want to, or are just making excuses.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

 

[dwyatt]

Wow, he looks like he's actually suffering there, my memories of watching his wins are always of him looking completely cool and easy, hiding any pain behind his sunglasses.

 

[buckle]

The trick is to stay out of the limelight.

 

[gazr99]

Won 5 tours in a row as EPO started to boom in the peloton, I think he's lucky he's not as aggressive and in your face as Armstrong otherwise he would be next to Lance in the HOF of caught dopers

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Won 5 tours in a row as EPO started to boom in the peloton, I think he's lucky he's not as aggressive and in your face as Armstrong otherwise he would be next to Lance in the HOF of caught dopers

Not really lucky, they were just very different personalities. That's also why, when they let go, Indurain could let go. Armstrong couldn't and that was his downfall.

 

[SeriousSam]

To think that this man would demolish today's climbers.

 

["Jeff"]

Wow, he looks like he's actually suffering there, my memories of watching his wins are always of him looking completely cool and easy, hiding any pain behind his sunglasses.

Its because of the guy who's leading the pace.

 

[Saint Unix]

Not sure who's more strained in that picture; Indurain or Indurain's shorts. Imagine having to contain that enormous arse...

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Miguel was on EPO big time, and I think I kind of proved it :

(comparing datas of the Lac de Vassivière ITTs in 1990 and 1995)

"In 1990, he was on his way to his first Tour de France top ten at general classification (10th). Some were saying he could have had a shot at winning if he had not sacrificed for his leader Pedro Delgado. He was the only one able to follow Greg LeMond to the top of Luz Ardiden, beating him for the stage win. IF THAT ISN’T GOOD DATA I DON’T KNOW WHAT IS ??? So where was Mr Indurain in 1990, let’s see… Mmmmhhh… Well, well, well : he finished 4th of the stage, just ahead of Greg LeMond, 40 seconds behind Breukink which gives him a 1h03’20” time.

Wait. Is that correct ? I see Mr Indurain did some training during the 90’s, didn’t he ? He managed to improve his own performance for a staggering 5 minutes and 46 seconds (9.1%) ! Well done, Mr Indurain, you’re a hell of a rider… and you sure helped cycling ride straight into hell. With his 1990 time, Mig-Hell would have finished 35th in 1995, just behind time trial specialist and clean sport poster boy Marco Pantani. A reference. Kind of."

https://greglemondfans.wordpress.com/2014/05/03/dark-side-of-the-lake/

That being said, Indurain was always a good rider; a phenomenal time trialist, especially. He won the 1989 Paris-Nice and Criterium International (where he did beat none other than Mottet, Fignon, Lemond & Roche fighting for the win).

I believe he had a first taste at EPO in 1991, saw that it worked, became much more aggressive by 1992 (docs were probably more efficient in dosage too).

I don't think he would have won the 1990 TDF if he had not sacrificed for Delgado. He would have done better than Delgado, but he would not have won. I also believe I read somewhere that he had to be convinced to actually believe in himself as a TDF winner. Maybe Echevarri told him that he would become one with EPO ? Can't say.

 

[saganftw]

who si the guy behind indurain playing the airtrumpet? virenque?

 

[Lyon]

who si the guy behind indurain playing the airtrumpet? virenque?

Chiappuchi.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Miguel was on EPO big time, and I think I kind of proved it :

(comparing datas of the Lac de Vassivière ITTs in 1990 and 1995)

"In 1990, he was on his way to his first Tour de France top ten at general classification (10th). Some were saying he could have had a shot at winning if he had not sacrificed for his leader Pedro Delgado. He was the only one able to follow Greg LeMond to the top of Luz Ardiden, beating him for the stage win. IF THAT ISN’T GOOD DATA I DON’T KNOW WHAT IS ??? So where was Mr Indurain in 1990, let’s see… Mmmmhhh… Well, well, well : he finished 4th of the stage, just ahead of Greg LeMond, 40 seconds behind Breukink which gives him a 1h03’20” time.

Wait. Is that correct ? I see Mr Indurain did some training during the 90’s, didn’t he ? He managed to improve his own performance for a staggering 5 minutes and 46 seconds (9.1%) ! Well done, Mr Indurain, you’re a hell of a rider… and you sure helped cycling ride straight into hell. With his 1990 time, Mig-Hell would have finished 35th in 1995, just behind time trial specialist and clean sport poster boy Marco Pantani. A reference. Kind of."

https://greglemondfans.wordpress.com/2014/05/03/dark-side-of-the-lake/

That being said, Indurain was always a good rider; a phenomenal time trialist, especially. He won the 1989 Paris-Nice and Criterium International (where he did beat none other than Mottet, Fignon, Lemond & Roche fighting for the win).

I believe he had a first taste at EPO in 1991, saw that it worked, became much more aggressive by 1992 (docs were probably more efficient in dosage too).

I don't think he would have won the 1990 TDF if he had not sacrificed for Delgado. He would have done better than Delgado, but he would not have won. I also believe I read somewhere that he had to be convinced to actually believe in himself as a TDF winner. Maybe Echevarri told him that he would become one with EPO ? Can't say.

I think plenty of riders have improved by 10% or more over 5 years. If we go by ur criteria then all of them are dopers especially Froome. IMO 5 yrs is too long a time

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Miguel was on EPO big time, and I think I kind of proved it :

(comparing datas of the Lac de Vassivière ITTs in 1990 and 1995)

"In 1990, he was on his way to his first Tour de France top ten at general classification (10th). Some were saying he could have had a shot at winning if he had not sacrificed for his leader Pedro Delgado. He was the only one able to follow Greg LeMond to the top of Luz Ardiden, beating him for the stage win. IF THAT ISN’T GOOD DATA I DON’T KNOW WHAT IS ??? So where was Mr Indurain in 1990, let’s see… Mmmmhhh… Well, well, well : he finished 4th of the stage, just ahead of Greg LeMond, 40 seconds behind Breukink which gives him a 1h03’20” time.

Wait. Is that correct ? I see Mr Indurain did some training during the 90’s, didn’t he ? He managed to improve his own performance for a staggering 5 minutes and 46 seconds (9.1%) ! Well done, Mr Indurain, you’re a hell of a rider… and you sure helped cycling ride straight into hell. With his 1990 time, Mig-Hell would have finished 35th in 1995, just behind time trial specialist and clean sport poster boy Marco Pantani. A reference. Kind of."

https://greglemondfans.wordpress.com/2014/05/03/dark-side-of-the-lake/

That being said, Indurain was always a good rider; a phenomenal time trialist, especially. He won the 1989 Paris-Nice and Criterium International (where he did beat none other than Mottet, Fignon, Lemond & Roche fighting for the win).

I believe he had a first taste at EPO in 1991, saw that it worked, became much more aggressive by 1992 (docs were probably more efficient in dosage too).

I don't think he would have won the 1990 TDF if he had not sacrificed for Delgado. He would have done better than Delgado, but he would not have won. I also believe I read somewhere that he had to be convinced to actually believe in himself as a TDF winner. Maybe Echevarri told him that he would become one with EPO ? Can't say.

I think plenty of riders have improved by 10% or more over 5 years. If we go by ur criteria then all of them are dopers especially Froome. IMO 5 yrs is too long a time

Except that I did compare with 1985 too.

Progress of the top 10 riders between 1985 and 1990 = +0,28%

Progress of top 10 riders between 1990 and 1995 = +7,62%

And, mind you, in 1985 they didn't have the aero bars. In 1990, they did. So the 0,28% could be very well explained by the sole use of the aero bars.

Another thing : I don't know about you but I ride with Strava. Everyday I'm struggling to beat my own records. And we're not talking 5%, we're talking less than 1%. The difference is huge in terms of time. If you think a 6 minutes difference over a 60 minutes effort isn't a big deal, well... I can't help you.

 

[Saint Unix]

Ross Tucker showing Indurain improved his average power output on the final climbs of every mountain stage from year to year from about 5,3W/kg in 1991 to about 6,3W/kg in 1995. Given the introduction of EPO around those times, the dots are pretty easy to connect.

 

[IndianCyclist]

[quote="

Except that I did compare with 1985 too.

Progress of the top 10 riders between 1985 and 1990 = +0,28%

Progress of top 10 riders between 1990 and 1995 = +7,62%

And, mind you, in 1985 they didn't have the aero bars. In 1990, they did. So the 0,28% could be very well explained by the sole use of the aero bars.

Another thing : I don't know about you but I ride with Strava. Everyday I'm struggling to beat my own records. And we're not talking 5%, we're talking less than 1%. The difference is huge in terms of time. If you think a 6 minutes difference over a 60 minutes effort isn't a big deal, well... I can't help you.

I agree with you there. I run for 2 hrs and even 1% is a gain that is pretty good which only happens if the legs are good and environmental conditions are good. But over 5 years a lot of things can happen in the life of a single rider. Muscles get stronger, blood circulation improves due to new capillaries, weight gets reduced, cycling aerodynamic position gets improved, effort gauging becomes better. Pinot's data shows an improvement of 15-20% over 5 years. Boardman's 1993 HR was 52.270 km and with superman in 1996 was 56.375 km. Is it evidence of doping? Dont know becos the no of variables are too many.
But Rominger however changed the HR from 53.832 km to 55.291 km in 2 weeks. That is definitely doping.
In Indurain's case, how do we know that in that particular TT he was going full gas, wind conditions, temperature etc. While Indurain most likely doped, it is difficult to say from performance data alone unless it is too alien, too sudden like Rominger's was. Comparing the top riders from different years may give some indication but a single rider's performance data is too variable IMO.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

[quote="

Except that I did compare with 1985 too.

Progress of the top 10 riders between 1985 and 1990 = +0,28%

Progress of top 10 riders between 1990 and 1995 = +7,62%

And, mind you, in 1985 they didn't have the aero bars. In 1990, they did. So the 0,28% could be very well explained by the sole use of the aero bars.

Another thing : I don't know about you but I ride with Strava. Everyday I'm struggling to beat my own records. And we're not talking 5%, we're talking less than 1%. The difference is huge in terms of time. If you think a 6 minutes difference over a 60 minutes effort isn't a big deal, well... I can't help you.

I agree with you there. I run for 2 hrs and even 1% is a gain that is pretty good which only happens if the legs are good and environmental conditions are good. But over 5 years a lot of things can happen in the life of a single rider. Muscles get stronger, blood circulation improves due to new capillaries, weight gets reduced, cycling aerodynamic position gets improved, effort gauging becomes better. Pinot's data shows an improvement of 15-20% over 5 years. Boardman's 1993 HR was 52.270 km and with superman in 1996 was 56.375 km. Is it evidence of doping? Dont know becos the no of variables are too many.
But Rominger however changed the HR from 53.832 km to 55.291 km in 2 weeks. That is definitely doping.
In Indurain's case, how do we know that in that particular TT he was going full gas, wind conditions, temperature etc. While Indurain most likely doped, it is difficult to say from performance data alone unless it is too alien, too sudden like Rominger's was. Comparing the top riders from different years may give some indication but a single rider's performance data is too variable IMO.

Can you please read the whole thing ? Click on the link. It's not just Indurain, it's the whole peloton. Very little variables since the track is around a lake, not a straight line.

 

[dwyatt]

I always wonder when mig started using EPO - Claudio Chiappucci claimed he started using it in 1993, yet he went backwards in the tour results that year (2nd 1992, 6th 1993) - so does mean everyone started the same year? Its also the year mig became much faster. However i struggle to imagine anyone that big winning any grand tours clean, so i wonder what he was on for 1991/1992 - was he already on epo but very conservative?

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re:

I always wonder when mig started using EPO - Claudio Chiappucci claimed he started using it in 1993, yet he went backwards in the tour results that year (2nd 1992, 6th 1993) - so does mean everyone started the same year? Its also the year mig became much faster. However i struggle to imagine anyone that big winning any grand tours clean, so i wonder what he was on for 1991/1992 - was he already on epo but very conservative?

I didn't know Chiappucci admitted to doping. Where did you read that ?

If he said that, I really question his honesty (obviously, lol). To me, his big jump is between 1990 and 1991 where he gets from a good climber to overall GC contender. Him stating he started taking things in 93 might lead us to believe he was clean for the peak of his career, since he goes all the way down from 93, when people catch up with him. I think very few riders were on it in 1991. I'm sure about Indurain, Bugno and Chiappucci but the rest? Chiocciolli too (stellar Giro). I think it's also been proven that the whole Carrera team, including Roche, was on EPO in 1992. It was reported by David Walsh, I believe.

 

[franic]

Re:

I always wonder when mig started using EPO - Claudio Chiappucci claimed he started using it in 1993, yet he went backwards in the tour results that year (2nd 1992, 6th 1993) - so does mean everyone started the same year? Its also the year mig became much faster. However i struggle to imagine anyone that big winning any grand tours clean, so i wonder what he was on for 1991/1992 - was he already on epo but very conservative?

Has Chiappucci confessed using EPO??

 

[franic]

Re: Re:

I always wonder when mig started using EPO - Claudio Chiappucci claimed he started using it in 1993, yet he went backwards in the tour results that year (2nd 1992, 6th 1993) - so does mean everyone started the same year? Its also the year mig became much faster. However i struggle to imagine anyone that big winning any grand tours clean, so i wonder what he was on for 1991/1992 - was he already on epo but very conservative?

I didn't know Chiappucci admitted to doping. Where did you read that ?

If he said that, I really question his honesty (obviously, lol). To me, his big jump is between 1990 and 1991 where he gets from a good climber to overall GC contender. Him stating he started taking things in 93 might lead us to believe he was clean for the peak of his career, since he goes all the way down from 93, when people catch up with him. I think very few riders were on it in 1991. I'm sure about Indurain, Bugno and Chiappucci but the rest? Chiocciolli too (stellar Giro). I think it's also been proven that the whole Carrera team, including Roche, was on EPO in 1992. It was reported by David Walsh, I believe.

Yes, the whole team Carrera, Roche included, was on EPO as confirmed by judge Oliva in the trial against Conconi

 

[dwyatt]

Re: Re:

I always wonder when mig started using EPO - Claudio Chiappucci claimed he started using it in 1993, yet he went backwards in the tour results that year (2nd 1992, 6th 1993) - so does mean everyone started the same year? Its also the year mig became much faster. However i struggle to imagine anyone that big winning any grand tours clean, so i wonder what he was on for 1991/1992 - was he already on epo but very conservative?

Has Chiappucci confessed using EPO??

In 1997, Chiappucci told an Italian prosecutor, Vincenzo Scolastico, that he had used EPO since 1993, the year after Sestriere. But later he retracted his statement.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...hiappuccis-legendary-victory-sestriere_333453

I don't care that he retracted it, a confession is a confession.

 

[franic]

Re: Re:

I always wonder when mig started using EPO - Claudio Chiappucci claimed he started using it in 1993, yet he went backwards in the tour results that year (2nd 1992, 6th 1993) - so does mean everyone started the same year? Its also the year mig became much faster. However i struggle to imagine anyone that big winning any grand tours clean, so i wonder what he was on for 1991/1992 - was he already on epo but very conservative?

Has Chiappucci confessed using EPO??

In 1997, Chiappucci told an Italian prosecutor, Vincenzo Scolastico, that he had used EPO since 1993, the year after Sestriere. But later he retracted his statement.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...hiappuccis-legendary-victory-sestriere_333453
I didn't remember about it. Thanks
I don't care that he retracted it, a confession is a confession.

 

[Cookster15]

Indurain was a big rider during his TDF winning days but not Cancellara big. I believe the weight then quoted for Big Mig was 78-9 Kg. Cancellara is about 85kg isn't he?. I have no doubt Indurain was using EPO but it's important we don't exaggerate. I think his ITT showed he was putting some incredible watts and his Aero position didn't look the most efficient either. So put those watts with 79Kg and it was no surprise he could drop little climbers up Hautacam in 94 like he did. Easily over 6W/Kg I'd say on EPO. If so that's 480 sustained watts on long MTFs - wow.