Interesting piece on Livestrong

[gree0232]

Why are you guys letting uber-troll Miloman derail this thread with nonsense abut Armstrong's charity?

The only thing he's accomplishing is making some of you repeat what has already been posted about Lance's .com and his .org.

We've dealt with this at length already. So why put so much effort put into trying to convince a him otherwise?

This is what trolls feed off of, like zombies feed off the flesh of the living.

Don't feed him and he'll go away. Stop giving this poster an avenue to continually throw these threads off-track.

That has got to be one of the most trolling posts I have seen on any thread in any forum anywhere.

It brings nothing to the discussion, and confirms that for some, tha hatred of Lance is so strong that rational discussion is beyond their ability.

This thread is filled with twisted, non-contextual quotes, and vicious attacks (like the one quoted), as if emotion and personal disdain is what matters most in regard to doping.

Lets try something called logic instead shall we?

Here is a little primer in constructing a logical arguement.

http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/SocialConstruction/Logic.html

Generally speaking, a solid logical argument consists of a statement supported by either inductive or deductive evidence that support that statement - which equates to conclusion. The better the arguementation, the better the conclusion and the more likely something will result from that conclusion.

There are also a few well known logical fallacies, which pop up in this forum all too often. There are actually two in the quoted portion above: An appeal to ridicule, and the Bandwagon fallacy.

A full list can be found here:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Essentially, what the good Berzin is saying is that Lance doped because anyone who disagrees is a troll, so no one should even mention the possibility of innocence - therefore, obviously Lance is a doper.

There are those who can, indeed have, made strong circumstanical cases against Armstrong, but, objectively and too date, nothing has risen to the point that the doping allegations are true.

There are also people who can, indeed have, made strong circumstantial cases FOR Armstrong, but, objectively and too date, nothing has come out that would finally squelch all the rumors.

This investogation may be what finally does that. If this investigation cannot turn up any evidence of doping by Lance, then Lance is exonerated. If the investigation turns up evidence that Lance doped or finds a doping organization that completely surrounds Armstrong and his team - he doped. Whether you like or dislike Armstrong is irrelvant.

That some poeple will abaondon all sense, mutual respect, their own self dignity to anonyonous attack someone for disagreeing with their opinion is silly and childish.

The OBJECTIVE warning that Miloman is giving this forum is that of objectvity itself. Remove your emotions from the discussion. Just because someone takes your side does not make what they are saying good or correct. Floyd has baggage every bit as deep as Armstrong's, if not more so, and, for someone so knowledgeable about doping, I would have put more credence in his claims of doping if he had been talking about clenbuteral in the peloton BEFORE Contador got nailed. It was so wide spread he never mentioned it?

There is a LOT of emotion, animosity, and simple politics in play regarding Armstrong, and the ONLY way through it is by using objective, logical standards.

Running around demanding other be quiet and calling those who disagree with you a troll is pretty unhelpful anywhere.

 

[Barrus]

That has got to be one of the most trolling posts I have seen on any thread in any forum anywhere.

It brings nothing to the discussion, and confirms that for some, tha hatred of Lance is so strong that rational discussion is beyond their ability.

You do realize that the original post by Miloman was exactly the same seeing as it was in a thread that had nothing to do with the LAF. He brought it up to debate it, somewhere where it did not bring anything to the discussion.

I need to totally agree here with Berzin, even though I was responsible for it as well.
As I said before all Miloman does on this forum is troll specific threads without bringing anything enw to the discussion, look at his posting history and what he posts most of the time

 

[Dr. Maserati]

That has got to be one of the most trolling posts I have seen on any thread in any forum anywhere.

It brings nothing to the discussion, and confirms that for some, tha hatred of Lance is so strong that rational discussion is beyond their ability.

This thread is filled with twisted, non-contextual quotes, and vicious attacks (like the one quoted), as if emotion and personal disdain is what matters most in regard to doping.

Lets try something called logic instead shall we?

Here is a little primer in constructing a logical arguement.

http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/SocialConstruction/Logic.html

Generally speaking, a solid logical argument consists of a statement supported by either inductive or deductive evidence that support that statement - which equates to conclusion. The better the arguementation, the better the conclusion and the more likely something will result from that conclusion.

There are also a few well known logical fallacies, which pop up in this forum all too often. There are actually two in the quoted portion above: An appeal to ridicule, and the Bandwagon fallacy.

A full list can be found here:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Essentially, what the good Berzin is saying is that Lance doped because anyone who disagrees is a troll, so no one should even mention the possibility of innocence - therefore, obviously Lance is a doper.

There are those who can, indeed have, made strong circumstanical cases against Armstrong, but, objectively and too date, nothing has risen to the point that the doping allegations are true.

There are also people who can, indeed have, made strong circumstantial cases FOR Armstrong, but, objectively and too date, nothing has come out that would finally squelch all the rumors.

This investogation may be what finally does that. If this investigation cannot turn up any evidence of doping by Lance, then Lance is exonerated. If the investigation turns up evidence that Lance doped or finds a doping organization that completely surrounds Armstrong and his team - he doped. Whether you like or dislike Armstrong is irrelvant.

That some poeple will abaondon all sense, mutual respect, their own self dignity to anonyonous attack someone for disagreeing with their opinion is silly and childish.

The OBJECTIVE warning that Miloman is giving this forum is that of objectvity itself. Remove your emotions from the discussion. Just because someone takes your side does not make what they are saying good or correct. Floyd has baggage every bit as deep as Armstrong's, if not more so, and, for someone so knowledgeable about doping, I would have put more credence in his claims of doping if he had been talking about clenbuteral in the peloton BEFORE Contador got nailed. It was so wide spread he never mentioned it?

There is a LOT of emotion, animosity, and simple politics in play regarding Armstrong, and the ONLY way through it is by using objective, logical standards.

Running around demanding other be quiet and calling those who disagree with you a troll is pretty unhelpful anywhere.

Its funny how you berate Berzin for trolling - and then bring up your view on the Armstrong investigation and how 'we' should interpret it.
Would that not be off topic, inflammatory etc.

You're right that some posters get overtly emotional, I have even see SOME WRITE IN BIG LETTERS to express their point.

 

[JRTinMA]

I didn't misrepresent what you said - in fact I quoted it.

So, 2 posters represent the majority (most) of the 'informed' posters here......ooookkkkayyy.

You do understand that I made a statement and described a group of posters as "most of the so called informed". This is where it gets complicated so bear with me, if I made this group only I know who's in the group. Including you its now the group is 4 so that was half the list.

To the bold I said "so called informed", this is very different that your misrepresentation of my post as "informed". (i.e., not a good) I hope this helps as you continue to lie and misrepresent.

 

[patricknd]

You're right that some posters get overtly emotional, I have even see SOME WRITE IN BIG LETTERS to express their point.

you mean like barrus?

 

[Barrus]

you mean like barrus?

I wanted to say the same thing actually against Dr. M

 

[Polish]

Charity Navigator gives them the same rating. Most of the so called informed in the clinic would say LAF is not good. You know, jet fuel blah blah blah.

Agree with your point.

In fact, if a Poll were posted in the Clinic asking

LAF is Good
LAF is not Good

I believe most of the "so called informed" would vote "not good".

 

[Race Radio]

Am I missing something?

The title of this piece is "Interesting piece on Livestrong".....did I miss the piece?

Regardless. There will soon be a new, interesting piece on Livestrong. Written by a major media outlet with some experience investigative journalists. To avoid future embarrassment some of our more avid Livestrong supporters may want to back away from the topic for a few weeks.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You do understand that I made a statement and described a group of posters as "most of the so called informed". This is where it gets complicated so bear with me, if I made this group only I know who's in the group. Including you its now the group is 4 so that was half the list.

To the bold I said "so called informed", this is very different that your misrepresentation of my post as "informed". (i.e., not a good) I hope this helps as you continue to lie and misrepresent.

Can you point out where I have lied or misrepresented you?
As I have quotes you all the time - it is not my fault that you have not said who these "so called informed" posters are. Then we would be able to find out if they think the LAF is "no good" as you attributed to them.

 

[patricknd]

I wanted to say the same thing actually against Dr. M

me too but i thought it would be funnier if it was you. glad to see someone has a sense of humor in this

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Agree with your point.

In fact, if a Poll were posted in the Clinic asking

LAF is Good
LAF is not Good

I believe most of the "so called informed" would vote "not good".

Ya, but there are only 4 members to that group and while half of those would say "good", the other half (which is "most") would say "not good".

 

[miloman]

So I disprove what you say and now you are focusing on whether you are snubbed or not. I'm talking objectively here. OBJECTIVELY the LAF will never do as much good as the red cross does each year.Also you are the person that brought up the charity angle

To someone who was inspired to fight for his/her life and is living cancer-free, through either real or perceived efforts of the LAF, I would bet they feel differently. I don’t think it is even remotely possible to be objective about that!

And I didn’t bring up the livestrong debate, I only said that Floyd made some promises and I will reserve judgment of him and his motives until after he makes good on them; and maybe he should consider giving something to charity. And since you think the Red Cross is worthy, maybe you can urge him to start with them.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

To someone who was inspired to fight for his/her life and is living cancer-free, through either real or perceived efforts of the LAF, I would bet they feel differently. I don’t think it is even remotely possible to be objective about that!

And I didn’t bring up the livestrong debate, I only said that Floyd made some promises and I will reserve judgment of him and his motives until after he makes good on them; and maybe he should consider giving something to charity. And since you think the Red Cross is worthy, maybe you can urge him to start with them.

Yes you did bring up the charity, you were the first to do so in Post 153 on the other thread.

Here is the post:

[/B]

So you don't care what a person's motivation is, just so long as they incriminate the people you dislike? I think most people who have been following this agree that if Floyd would have been given a ride with Radioshaft, none of this would have ever happend. I will be impressed if, and when, something really happens in this case and Floyd receives a settlement from his wb case and he pays everyone back and gives the rest to charity. Like him or not, Armstrong's charity has done more good in the world than Floyd's revelations ever will. Armstong is probably a jerk, and a doper, but what is Floyd?. . four words quickly come to mind: opportunistic, calculating, insincere, hypocritical.

 

[Race Radio]

To someone who was inspired to fight for his/her life and is living cancer-free, through either real or perceived efforts of the LAF, I would bet they feel differently. I don’t think it is even remotely possible to be objective about that!

And I didn’t bring up the livestrong debate, I only said that Floyd made some promises and I will reserve judgment of him and his motives until after he makes good on them; and maybe he should consider giving something to charity. And since you think the Red Cross is worthy, maybe you can urge him to start with them.

If this is just about inspiration then Lance should just pocket all the money

 

[orbeas]

Miloman, I am a resident of the UK and I have been following the LA forums with interest. As you are well informed about the Livestrong Foundation perhaps you can explain to me how the foundation works, as we have fully funded health service here in the UK as opposed to your private one in the USA, I cannot understand how people in the UK , giving money in donations to Livestrong can find out what happens to the money. Say I donate $100 to Livestrong how much is paid out to whom ???
Your informed reply is eagerly awaited.

 

[miloman]

Miloman, I am a resident of the UK and I have been following the LA forums with interest. As you are well informed about the Livestrong Foundation perhaps you can explain to me how the foundation works, as we have fully funded health service here in the UK as opposed to your private one in the USA, I cannot understand how people in the UK , giving money in donations to Livestrong can find out what happens to the money. Say I donate $100 to Livestrong how much is paid out to whom ???
Your informed reply is eagerly awaited.

You are misinformed, I am not well informed about LAF and I don't know how your money is used. I would suggest that you go to their web site and see how they allocate their funds. However, in my experience, charities like this allocate funds to educational programs, professional training, patient programs, research and possibly clinical trials. In the US you can deduct donations to 501(c)(3) charities like LAF from your personal taxes.

 

[Race Radio]

Miloman, I am a resident of the UK and I have been following the LA forums with interest. As you are well informed about the Livestrong Foundation perhaps you can explain to me how the foundation works, as we have fully funded health service here in the UK as opposed to your private one in the USA, I cannot understand how people in the UK , giving money in donations to Livestrong can find out what happens to the money. Say I donate $100 to Livestrong how much is paid out to whom ???
Your informed reply is eagerly awaited.

$2,000,000 a year goes here

 

[orbeas]

So how does the donated money benefit cancer sufferers ??? is it given to people who do not have any health benefit ????
See here in the UK the 2 main charities are the McMillan cancer nurses and the UK cancer.
the nurses look after cancer suffers at home
and the main cancer charity funds research in hospitals
if they send $2 mill on jets no wonder you cannot find out what happens to the money
if this happened in the UK the british press would have a field day!!!!!!!

 

[L29205]

Am I missing something?

The title of this piece is "Interesting piece on Livestrong".....did I miss the piece?

You didn't miss the piece, what is missing is the interesting. This has brought up again and again. And we still discuss the the merits of LAF versus other charities.

 

[Anonymous]

this really gets my blood boiling, I have been to many oncologists offices in large cities, small towns as several members of my family slowly passed. NOTHING from Livestrong, no support, no awareness, no materials. My father spent almost a decade getting treatment not once in all those years did i ever see anything from Livestrong. Not even Lances friggin book. It takes hours to get a chemo drip, i read every piece of paper as i kept my father company.
It would have been nice if they had some encouraging reading material.

this is why i am ticked off, i would estimate i have been in dozens of offices, as well as major hospitals, all for cancer treatment and i think
"where exactly does all this money to Livestrong go?" Millions and they can't even hang up a poster with a phone number and a message like"you are not alone?"
friggin *******!

The money goes to making sure people are aware of cancer. Before Lance, nobody had ever heard of cancer. Then some dude who rode a bicycle and believes his strength beat the disease (all those doctors did was set the stage, his will and strength of character was the real reason he beat cancer), and people became aware of the disease. He continues to save the world with his cancer awareness efforts. I am willing to bet that probably tens of people have become aware of cancer, who had never heard of it before, because of Armstrong and LAF, why, just check out the advertising material for Comeback 2.0. It SCREAMS "Cancer Awareness"

 

[Anonymous]

+1 million -1 for the bold font = +999,999

I stopped caring much about this forum because I got tired of threads being turned into page after page of responses to obvious baiting.

+1,000,000 +1 for not bolding the font = +1,000,001

 

[thehog]

The thing is there is no such thing as cancer. It doesn't exist in a single form like Lance sells it. Hope, courage, defiance etc. doesn't cure it, fight it or make you more aware.

There are over 200 types of cancers all with different symptoms and treatments. With organisations like Livestrong no one is any closer to understanding or having a greater "awareness" of what cancers there are. You don't fight cancer. I mean how does one fight cancer? You can't. You can be aware of potential symptoms of the the main types of cancer but I don't think anyone knows anymore from what Livestong advertisers. He's hogging the limelight from those who are much better placed at providing real information on the symptoms and the prevention of the forms of cancers in existence.

Cancers are predominantly*an environmental disease. For example if you come into contact with chemicals or if they're injected into your bloodstream it can raise your chances of contracting some form of cancer.

 

[D-Queued]

The money goes to making sure people are aware of cancer. Before Lance, nobody had ever heard of cancer. Then some dude who rode a bicycle and believes his strength beat the disease (all those doctors did was set the stage, his will and strength of character was the real reason he beat cancer), and people became aware of the disease. He continues to save the world with his cancer awareness efforts. I am willing to bet that probably tens of people have become aware of cancer, who had never heard of it before, because of Armstrong and LAF, why, just check out the advertising material for Comeback 2.0. It SCREAMS "Cancer Awareness"

...cool photos...

Lance is so good for cancer. Before Lance, I had no idea about cancer.

I was so unaware. I didn't even know that cancer always wore yellow.

Now I know what cancer looks like and everything.

Can you get it from a toilet seat, or do you have to ride a bike?

Dave.

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

Lance is so good for cancer. Before Lance, I had no idea about cancer.

I was so unaware. I didn't even know that cancer always wore yellow.

Now I know what cancer looks like and everything.

Can you get it from a toilet seat, or do you have to ride a bike?

Dave.

I think you can get it from a toilet seat, but only a French toilet seat. On the plus side it will make you lose weight, increase your VO2 max and allow you to pedal with a higher cadence.

 

[Anonymous]

Lance is so good for cancer. Before Lance, I had no idea about cancer.

I was so unaware. I didn't even know that cancer always wore yellow.

Now I know what cancer looks like and everything.

Can you get it from a toilet seat, or do you have to ride a bike?

Dave.

I know you can get it from Mary Kate now...or is it Ashley?