Man, I agree with your points, as well as those posted by RR, but I am really struggling with this one.Ferminal said:How can you do it fairly?
Does Contador get a lifetime ban, even though he only tested positive for a minor PED which it's unlikely he knowingly took? Does he still escape with a year ban even though there is little doubt about his use of transfusions
Does Basso only get 2 years because he just visited a friendly doctor and was only thinking about doping, not caught in the act.
Is Valverde's lifetime ban really such when he continued to race for years before being sanctioned?
Should Mosquera get a lifetime ban, even though the guy ahead of him who is almost certainly juicing gets away with the win plus being seen as a clean rider.
How is it at all fair for someone to get a lifetime ban when others like Andy Schleck are running rampant at the top of the sport?
All a lifetime ban will do is further widen the gap between haves and have nots, without tackling the real issue. Sure there will be less dopers, but will there be more clean riders winning races?
Well said. I think it goes to the character of the individual.BotanyBay said:I disagree. A guy who can fool himself into this is not motivated one way or the other by the fear of consequences, but rather the irresistible urge to do it anyway.
If a guy's willing to pump his blood full of "who knows what" and do blood transfusions in his apartment (which by the way, has become such a common subject for us, we fail to remember that it is a serious medical procedure)...brutha's willing to risk his life, so obviously he's willing to risk the career.
There are no "drug" addicts, alcoholics, meth-heads, etc.
There are merely "addicts". It's all the same affliction. When a rock star goes on VH-1 and talks about how he got off of Coke, and then Heroin, and then thinks getting drunk every so often is OK... He fails to understand the true nature of addiction. It's something deep down.
It's not about the drugs.
I'm trying to hold some kind of realist perspective. I do advocate penalties for Mangers, DS, medical staff etc but it seems so hard to implement in a just manner (at this point in time). What about Doctors who operate outside the sport like Ferrari, Fuentes, Del Moral - criminal action against them needs to be a lot stronger. Whilst dopers and facilitators are all evil and we want them gone, we must not forget that they live in a world where we supposedly value fairness, justice and equality.TexPat said:Man, I agree with your points, as well as those posted by RR, but I am really struggling with this one.
My main desire is to clean it up, and though it may seem a simplistic approach to the problem, a lifetime ban is appropriate. Take it further and give the ban to the rider's ds, too. How about collective guilt? Ban the team.
You are your brother's keeper afterall.
Contador? Ban him.
If anything can be done, eliminating the UCI upper echelon would be a start. The only way to insure fairness in application of the rules is to root them out first, and entrust the judicial process to a third party.
And amazingly, the kingdom has a very low crime rate.fishtacos said:According to Amnesty International, in 2009 at least 69 people in Saudi Arabia were executed by beheading or crucifixion, which is about 1.3 people a week. I'd say that's plenty, compared to 0 a week.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8593438.stm
As BB (and you) were saying, the death penalty or lifetime bans won't discourage everyone from doing the wrong thing.
And add into that a guarantee that their salary and legal fees be paid during the process.Hugh Januss said:Throw in immunity for staff people who turn in a doper before he fails a test and you might have something.
People would shoplift a lot less if they knew their hand could get chopped off.TexPat said:And amazingly, the kingdom has a very low crime rate.
Completely agree- that is the first part that needs addressing...TexPat said:Man, I agree with your points, as well as those posted by RR, but I am really struggling with this one.
My main desire is to clean it up, and though it may seem a simplistic approach to the problem, a lifetime ban is appropriate. Take it further and give the ban to the rider's ds, too. How about collective guilt? Ban the team.
You are your brother's keeper afterall.
Contador? Ban him.
If anything can be done, eliminating the UCI upper echelon would be a start. The only way to insure fairness in application of the rules is to root them out first, and entrust the judicial process to a third party.
Here is something to think on. (where the hell is JV when you need him?)Ferminal said:I'm trying to hold some kind of realist perspective. I do advocate penalties for Mangers, DS, medical staff etc but it seems so hard to implement in a just manner (at this point in time). What about Doctors who operate outside the sport like Ferrari, Fuentes, Del Moral - criminal action against them needs to be a lot stronger. Whilst dopers and facilitators are all evil and we want them gone, we must not forget that they live in a world where we supposedly value fairness, justice and equality.
Unfortunately I feel the whole system needs to become a lot more transparent before we can take any steps forward.
That's a damn good idea.Dr. Maserati said:Completely agree- that is the first part that needs addressing...
Here is something to think on. (where the hell is JV when you need him?)
The current system has points for the individual that goes towards the team which dictates their position in the WorldTour.
Scrap it, throw it in the bin.
Firstly, it punishes riders that don't score points (makes it harder to renew contracts etc) so it actually encourages individual doping.
A new system would see points to the teams only (have a separate competition for individuals) - afterall it is team effort.
Any team caught with a doped rider shave off a load of points and do not allow a replacement until the end of the year.
All teams must assign doctors to riders* - if a rider gets popped the Doc goes too, but you are allowed replace the Doc hopefully having learnt the lesson.
(*so, even if the rider has outside assistance the team Doc will cry foul)
Any team with 3 positives in 2 years or where its shown they are complicit losses its WT license with all those sanctioned (Doc & DS) banned for life.
This could make teams more selective on who they hire and punishes the team (ie all the riders and staff) if they keep secrets and shows that omerta only hurts you.
+1BroDeal said:We would be much better off introducing lifetime bans for lying about doping.
That's a good idea.The Hitch said:Lifetime ban BUT if you cooperate, name ALL your suppliers contacts etc, your let back in.
Then if you want to go back to doping you need to find new suppliers, and if you get caught then, youll turn on them too,
Not really, not if it's a standard and required part of the job. To take a football analogy - you can be the nicest, most moral person in the world but if you play defensive midfield you're going to get booked a lot, it just comes with the job. I don't even think the rewards or penalties are relevant - take another sport, rugby union, where there is very visible almost constant cheating every game at the breakdown, exactly the same whether it's a 6 Nations game or a park game. Players regularly get sent off now for killing the ball, but they still do it; single penalty kicks decide games but players still take the chance. They do it for the exact same reason that cyclists dope: a. all competitive people look for an edge; and b. they know there's a very good chance they won't get caught.knewcleardaze said:Well said. I think it goes to the character of the individual.
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