Is Barry Bonds' Trial The Hold Up?

[Polish]

Government drops the charges on one of five indictments.
Lack of evidence it seems.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=6300104

prosecutors dropped the count accusing Bonds of lying to a grand jury in 2003 when he said prior to that season he never took anything other than vitamins from trainer Greg Anderson.

 

[Oldman]

Nope. He's being prosecuted for lying to the grand jury that was investigating the BALCO drug ring. Feds argue he was a big client of Victor Conte, the principal of BALCO.

I knew that, just testing if anyone knew the difference between an drug-inflated redhead power hitter or a drug-inflated bald power hitter. Still, isn't lying to a Grand Jury bad?

 

[flicker]

I knew that, just testing if anyone knew the difference between an drug-inflated redhead power hitter or a drug-inflated bald power hitter. Still, isn't lying to a Grand Jury bad?

Not really, if you are worth 75 mil, an ex slugger, and holder of the record.
Please, this is pro sports. Conscience, i don't think so.

 

[Oldman]

Not really, if you are worth 75 mil, an ex slugger, and holder of the record.
Please, this is pro sports. Conscience, i don't think so.

But if you end up in Federal, pound-me-in-the-a*s prison, do you get think that's good and what choices does $75mil get you? Chicken or sausage?

 

[flicker]

But if you end up in Federal, pound-me-in-the-a*s prison, do you get think that's good and what choices does $75mil get you? Chicken or sausage?

I don't plan on that club med vacation. I am sure that Barry's attorneys filled him in. Remember G Gordon Liddy, Micheal Vick, an martha stewart survived.

 

[flicker]

No disrespect, but Bonds was an awesome ballplayer. These players are amazing athletes, an I do not even like the sport. As far as PEDs and the FEDs, especially Novitzky, I want to see some bucks come back to the taxpayers.
I could care less if Bonds juiced, I wanted to see him put the ball into McCovy cove. Go Giants, Novizky hissssssss.

 

[TexPat]

But if you end up in Federal, pound-me-in-the-a*s prison, do you get think that's good and what choices does $75mil get you? Chicken or sausage?

Really can't see Bonds going to the type of facility you describe. I remember my father returning from one of his frequent trips to Eglin Air Force Base in the early 1980's and commenting on one of the Watergate boys mowing the lawn in an inmate uniform (think it was HR Haldeman).
I wonder if Barry can start a mower. Maybe my old friend can show him, though I'm sure he couldn't get the gas cap off.

 

[Merckx index]

Wait, I must be misinformed. Isn't he being prosecuted for lying to Congress?

You're missing the point. Whoever Bonds lied to, any other ball player would have also lied to, if he had been called to testify. Perjury is just a way of getting at the fact that Bonds doped, which so many other players also did. A-Rod and Pettite are Yankee heroes, Ramirez and Ortiz have been forgiven, etc., etc. But let's string up Barry.

Bonds has done nothing that Bill Clinton didn't do (except hit a ton of HRs), and I'll bet my last dollar that a large majority of people in this thread dissing on Bonds were glad that Clinton did not lose his impeachment trial. I would have no trouble going after Bonds if I thought his conviction would help clean up baseball, but I'm not that naive.

 

[fatandfast]

Bonds is a philanderer and an adulterer, though I have not followed the trial closely, I don’t believe he has been accused of rape or any other charge that would classify him as a sex offender. I’m also not aware that smiling during one’s trial, which people frequently do to buck up their sagging spirits, is cause for a guilty decision . To say that someone should go to jail just “because of himself” strikes me as the worst kind of prejudice.

At the end of the day, he did nothing that hundreds of other MLB players didn’t do who aren’t being charged with anything. Except that he, not they, was called before Congress. They are going after Bonds because he was a huge star and because he has an easily dislikeable personality. Some people really get off on seeing someone they personally don’t like getting harassed, and have no problem ignoring the fact that all those who did the same thing get off scot free.

Your points are valid. The major sports owners and management are starting to take action on conduct unbecoming of members of their associations. Bonds not the first and won't be the last. He was given special status in many ways, record holder, outspoken critic, bold abuser and at this point most important called before congress and a grand jury about his conduct.
Bonds broke rules about restraining orders, made written and verbal threats toward people who became enemies. I take your point. I think Bonds should be a starting point not another in a long line of a-holes allowed to doormat women and others in the name of satisfaction. Is Rothlesberger any less of a pig? Is Sean Avery a great guy? Neither accused of lying to a jury. Rooney out for 2 games. You have to start raising the bar of people who are paid to maintain a certain conduct while doing their jobs

 

[flicker]

Your points are valid. The major sports owners and management are starting to take action on conduct unbecoming of members of their associations. Bonds not the first and won't be the last. He was given special status in many ways, record holder, outspoken critic, bold abuser and at this point most important called before congress and a grand jury about his conduct.
Bonds broke rules about restraining orders, made written and verbal threats toward people who became enemies. I take your point. I think Bonds should be a starting point not another in a long line of a-holes allowed to doormat women and others in the name of satisfaction. Is Rothlesberger any less of a pig? Is Sean Avery a great guy? Neither accused of lying to a jury. Rooney out for 2 games. You have to start raising the bar of people who are paid to maintain a certain conduct while doing their jobs

A guy like that Pittsburgh quarterback along with ex-niner Bill Rominoff and Tom Cable, OJ,are heavy duty violent individuals. They can never be changed. Micheal Vick is the same violent guy, just wearing a mask now.
The only person who I ever saw change was Mike Tyson, somehow he learned and was humbled.
Barry will chill as advised by legal counsel. I doubt that he drinks or does drugs and his roid days are in the past so he should mellow out.
Barry will cool his jets, as advised by his attorneys.

 

[MarkvW]

Prison for Bonds?

My point is that if the US Government wants to persue criminal cases they need a good case with credible witnesses. Why do the federal government take a knife to a gunfight? Waste of money and time.
On the other hand 99 percent of the time poor people are going to get the short end of the stick in a criminal case. The poor, with their cheap suit lawyers, and public defenders.

But if you end up in Federal, pound-me-in-the-a*s prison, do you get think that's good and what choices does $75mil get you? Chicken or sausage?

I doubt Bonds will go to prison. He's very much within the Tammy Thomas template, I think. He didn't take the stand and lie.

 

[Race Radio]

I doubt Bonds will go to prison. He's very much within the Tammy Thomas template, I think. He didn't take the stand and lie.

Agreed.if there is any prison time it would be short and in a "country club"

 

[MacRoadie]

You're missing the point. Whoever Bonds lied to, any other ball player would have also lied to, if he had been called to testify. Perjury is just a way of getting at the fact that Bonds doped, which so many other players also did. A-Rod and Pettite are Yankee heroes, Ramirez and Ortiz have been forgiven, etc., etc. But let's string up Barry.

So, Bonds is the victim. If those damned feds hadn't asked him those questions he never would have had to lie.

Your suggestion that "any other ball player would have also lied" is a red herring. Beyond the fact that you cannot prove this contention, it remains that the government believes he DID lie, regardless of what someone else MIGHT have done under the same circumstances.

The feds don't give a rat's *** whether or not Bonds doped, as evidenced by their complete lack of interest in the Giambi's, Canseco, or even McGuire (a guy who flirted with contempt of congress, a far greater crime). They take exception to the fact that he tried, by lying to the grand jury, to put a wrench in their case against BALCO. THAT is what got him on their radar and their bad side. Their interest in his PED use begins and ends with him lying about it.

That he would, in the process, be "proven" to have doped was quite likely his motivation for lying (I can't see any underlying sense of allegiance to Victor Conte): a Catch 22 that those other players didn't find themselves facing.

Barry as the victim. Laughable.

 

[dbrower]

Y
If the prosecution wins, and I think they will, it will be because the jury/people do not like Barry Bonds.
[...]

Whole different ball game/race with Lance.

There are people who like Lance? Who have been actually exposed to him?

just wondering,
-dB

 

[D-Queued]

There are people who like Lance? Who have been actually exposed to him?

just wondering,
-dB

Lance, emanator of people love.

(Hi db, how are things?)

Dave.

 

[Merckx index]

Barry as the victim. Laughable.

I'm not saying Bonds is a victim. I'm just saying he has been singled out from many who did the same thing. As for the lying part, if you read my entire post, you know that I would be fine with going after Bonds if I thought it was actually going to accomplish something. I don't. And if you do, if you think convicting Bonds is going to be a major strike against PED use by MLB players, I have a bridge I want to sell you. Ten years ago, this case might at least have publicized the problem, but now even that benefit is irrelevant.

Beyond the legal justification of the case, it is patently obvious that many people don't give, as you say, a rat's a-- about BALCO or the federal government. They just hate Bonds--his arrogance, his prickly disposition, and the way he allegedly treats women--and are engaging in an orgy of recrimination. It's possible to agree that he is a pr-ck and still keep your eye on the legal ball rather than personal hatred. I think many here are not doing that at all. The term lynch mob comes to mind.

 

[9000ft]

What if, and I know this is unthinkable, I know this is sacrilege, I know this is beyond all belief in truth, justice and the pure and holy American way.....

What if.....here.... I'll whisper it....... Nothing happens? No jail, no loss of titles, no more hot blond starlets?

What will you guys have gotten out of it other than some really well developed wrist and forearm muscles?

Just curious what will happen if the unimaginable happens.

 

[MacRoadie]

I'm just saying he has been singled out from many who did the same thing.

Which other MLB players repeatedly lied (allegedly) during their testimony before the BALCO grand jury?

As for the lying part, if you read my entire post, you know that I would be fine with going after Bonds if I thought it was actually going to accomplish something.

As has been repeated ad-nauseum, why does it have to "accomplish something" other than punish an individual for breaking the law and obstructing justice? Lying under oath is a crime. Obstructing justice through bearing false witness and providing false testimony is a crime.

And if you do, if you think convicting Bonds is going to be a major strike against PED use by MLB players, I have a bridge I want to sell you.

No, I want it to be a major strike against people lying to the authorities, giving false testimony, and obstructing justice. I want people, regardless of the nature or their testimony, to respect the law, respect the judicial process, and provide honest testimony. Why is it that people keep going back to the steriods? He lied. The subject of the lie isn't germane. He could have been testifying about stolen sports memorabilia or fixing games or any number of other activities. It just so happened that it was steroids. Taking the steroids wasn't even illegal.

It's possible to agree that he is a pr-ck and still keep your eye on the legal ball rather than personal hatred.

Ironically, I really don't care about Bonds as a person. I don't care about his mistress (who entered the relationship willingly). I don't care about his friends, Mike Anderson, Victor Conte, or any of the other MLB players.

You keep introducing this hate argument and keep playing the vendetta card. I'm trying to keep my eye on the legal ball.

The point remains, regardless of how ANYONE feels about Bonds, how much money he makes, what records he holds, or the color of his skin, our legal system relies on honest testimony as an integral and reliable evidentiary source, both incriminating AND exculpatory.

 

[Merckx index]

Which other MLB players repeatedly lied (allegedly) during their testimony before the BALCO grand jury?



As has been repeated ad-nauseum, why does it have to "accomplish something" other than punish an individual for breaking the law and obstructing justice? Lying under oath is a crime. Obstructing justice through bearing false witness and providing false testimony is a crime.



No, I want it to be a major strike against people lying to the authorities, giving false testimony, and obstructing justice. I want people, regardless of the nature or their testimony, to respect the law, respect the judicial process, and provide honest testimony. Why is it that people keep going back to the steriods? He lied. The subject of the lie isn't germane. He could have been testifying about stolen sports memorabilia or fixing games or any number of other activities. It just so happened that it was steroids. Taking the steroids wasn't even illegal.

OK, fine, I guess you think Clinton should have been convicted and removed from office, too. I think the seriousness of lying sometimes has to be balanced against other issues. Sometimes IMO it's worth going after someone for lying "regardless of the nature of their testimony", and sometimes it isn't.

 

[MarkvW]

additional support

So, Bonds is the victim. If those damned feds hadn't asked him those questions he never would have had to lie.

Your suggestion that "any other ball player would have also lied" is a red herring. Beyond the fact that you cannot prove this contention, it remains that the government believes he DID lie, regardless of what someone else MIGHT have done under the same circumstances.

The feds don't give a rat's *** whether or not Bonds doped, as evidenced by their complete lack of interest in the Giambi's, Canseco, or even McGuire (a guy who flirted with contempt of congress, a far greater crime). They take exception to the fact that he tried, by lying to the grand jury, to put a wrench in their case against BALCO. THAT is what got him on their radar and their bad side. Their interest in his PED use begins and ends with him lying about it.

That he would, in the process, be "proven" to have doped was quite likely his motivation for lying (I can't see any underlying sense of allegiance to Victor Conte): a Catch 22 that those other players didn't find themselves facing.

Barry as the victim. Laughable.

I would add that the feds did subpoena Bonds' former teammates and they did not lie about steroid use,

 

[MacRoadie]

I would add that the feds did subpoena Bonds' former teammates and they did not lie about steroid use,

But didn't you say yourself that "any other ball player would have also lied" ?

Which is it?

 

[Race Radio]

What if, and I know this is unthinkable, I know this is sacrilege, I know this is beyond all belief in truth, justice and the pure and holy American way.....

What if.....here.... I'll whisper it....... Nothing happens? No jail, no loss of titles, no more hot blond starlets?

What will you guys have gotten out of it other than some really well developed wrist and forearm muscles?

Just curious what will happen if the unimaginable happens.

I am not sure how that is "Unimaginable" I think there is a very good chance he will not be convicted.

 

[Merckx index]

But didn't you say yourself that "any other ball player would have also lied" ?

Which is it?

Ok, fine. Apparently there are athletes in the world who don't lie about drug use. My bad, I exaggerated. The fact remains that a lot of them would have lied. McGwiire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Tejada. e.g., are good candidates.

MacR, I respect your opinion, but it is very debatable. There are a lot of people, including prosecutors, who don't feel that every case of lying under oath should be pursued. Very few such instances in adultery cases are gone after. Again, I'm interested in your opinion of the Clinton case. If you apply the same, regardless-of-the-nature of the testimony standard to that as you apply to Bonds,.you would have had to want him removed from office and presumably jailed. A majority of people in the U.S., and half the U.S. Senate, disagreed. Granted, politics played a major role in the Senate vote, but Clinton had huge support among the media and even among some Republicans.

The bottom line is that a large number of people, probably a substantial majority, don't make the clean separation that you apparently make between the fact of lying itself, and the nature of the deed that is lied about. And indeed, this is part of the law. I believe the jury in the Bonds case has been instructed that they can’t find him guilty, even if they believe he did lie, unless the lie had a material effect on the BALCO investigation. That he lied, per se, is not the issue.

Your position can easily be subjected to a reductio ad absurdum argument. Imagine someone on trial for committing murder while on a fishing trip. As part of the process of setting the scene, the defendant , or some witness who was there, is asked about the number or size of the fish he caught, and he lies. Is he going to be prosecuted for giving false testimony? Of course not. Not all lies are the same, some matter much more than others. And once one accepts that, then one can have a legitimate debate about whether the lie Bonds told was material enough to warrant prosecution.

 

[flicker]

In our local small time papers, if their is a conviction of Bonds, 1 year, home confinement. Very little news of Bonds by the way.

 

[Polish]

In our local small time papers, if their is a conviction of Bonds, 1 year, home confinement. Very little news of Bonds by the way.

Tammy Thomas had to serve 1 year home confinement for her role in Balco.

But Barry? The guy lives in a Palatial Mansion fcol.
What kind of message would THAT send?

Judge Illston should have Barry spend the year at Tammy's place.
He is a neat freak, and she has a tendency to leave the toilet seat up.
That'll learn him good.