Is Barry Bonds' Trial The Hold Up?

[Digger]

I agree, Bonds was/has been/ will continue/ to lie.
The good thing about the trial is Balco was shuddered.
Bonds was an awesome athlete, juiced, unjuiced etc. However if you study the WIKIPEDIA of Manny Ramirez, in 2003 104 other MLB players also tested positive for steroids. I think Bonds was an active player at that time.Those are only the MLB players who were caught. There were no penalties for those players and no doubt they continued juicing into retirement. Again, my arguement for Bonds, Lance, even Ricco(Choke!) is pro athletes are doped. Even playing field level, dopers all!

At this point the federal case is a waste of money. I only feel sorry for Hank Aaron whom I consider the real home run king, Bobby Bonds RIP and anyone who trusted
Bonds.

That's absolute bulls*** - prior to his steroid taking he looked gangly and almost like a long distance runner. So to make that statement that he was an awesome athlete is complete and utter sh**.

 

[sniper]

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/sports/francisco-124306-trainer-friend.html

Hoskins testifies, says he saw Bonds and Anderson with syringe and needle a couple of times

 

[Digger]

Marion Jones went down for perjury and in comparison to Bonds there wasn't actually that much evidence against her. Alot of it was based on Conte and CJ Hunter. There is a mountain of evidence against Bonds - I genuinely cannot see him getting off. Anderson refusing to testify alone should surely say it all.

 

[Oldman]

I was over in Pebble Beach a couple of years ago and watched Arnold Palmer and Jack Nichols drive a couple balls, a lot of it is technique.
I agree those Oakland As McGuire and Conseco were outragous with their doping. Since I am a Giants fan I have to say Bonds was a natural champion, a genetic freak and well disciplined and coached.Puro.

I thought these players, golf and baseball got their power from their buttocks mainly. If they were snapping balls out of the park with their wrists, I thought it would cause physical damage.

No damage if they're that strong. I saw both of them put it out of the park with their elbows tucked against their sides. As for Bonds being natural how do you explain the growth after age 30? Even San Francisco bartenders don't believe he's clean...

 

[popolo]

True

That's absolute bulls*** - prior to his steroid taking he looked gangly and almost like a long distance runner. So to make that statement that he was an awesome athlete is complete and utter sh**.

Unjuiced Bonds was one of the greatest players of his generation. This was alluded to in Game of Shadows. He actually had a career year in '98 when he was still clean and was overshadowed by McGwire and Sosa's home run race.

Bobby Bonds in fact was one of the greatest athletes in California HS history.

 

[popolo]

Bonds clean until 34

[/B]

No damage if they're that strong. I saw both of them put it out of the park with their elbows tucked against their sides. As for Bonds being natural how do you explain the growth after age 30? Even San Francisco bartenders don't believe he's clean...

Most accounts of Bonds' doping say he started after the '98 season when he had 37 home runs. He had already won 3 MVP awards and was on his way to the HOF.

Bonds was a great clean player on the level of maybe a Frank Robinson or Roberto Clemente, not a Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron.

 

[flicker]

[/B]

No damage if they're that strong. I saw both of them put it out of the park with their elbows tucked against their sides. As for Bonds being natural how do you explain the growth after age 30? Even San Francisco bartenders don't believe he's clean...

No matter what Bonds will pay, most likely with health problems....as far as bartenders, give them credit, some of the knowledgable sports fans out there...
San Francisco bartenders are not fools...

Still I admire Bonds playing, I always have, the last few years were embarassing for any baseball fan though...

If he took roids to make more money Bonds is a real idiot.... but what doper isn't?

 

[lean mean &green]

[/B]

No damage if they're that strong. I saw both of them put it out of the park with their elbows tucked against their sides. As for Bonds being natural how do you explain the growth after age 30? Even San Francisco bartenders don't believe he's clean...

striking power is all about weight transfer and summation of force. a compact (elbows in) motion isn't necessarily weak and don't be fooled by a lower body that appears quiet - it's most certainly where power is generated. even BB's artificially enhanced forearm/wrist strength will only help to overcome small mistakes.
BB was a talented hitter w/o AAS's. with them he became a freak of nature, maybe the best ever******** !

 

[Merckx index]

Most accounts of Bonds' doping say he started after the '98 season when he had 37 home runs. He had already won 3 MVP awards and was on his way to the HOF.

Bonds was a great clean player on the level of maybe a Frank Robinson or Roberto Clemente, not a Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron.

We don't know that he was totally clean before 1998, but that was certainly about when the really heavy program began. As for comparisons with other players, put it this way. If he had continued the way he was up to 1998 or so, no juicing or extra juicing, he would have finished his career with more than 600 HR, right up there with his godfather Willy Mays. He was a much better baserunner than Aaron and Ruth--only guy to steal 500 bases and hit 500 HRs--and also a better outfielder, many Gold Gloves. After his first big year in SF in 1993, a lot of people were saying he was the best all-around player ever.

For my money, he was also the most successful case of doping in sports history. His numbers from 2001-2004, when he won an unprecedented four straight MVPs, are unreal. He received more intentional walks than almost every other TEAM in the league, broke the season walk record by about a third, and still hit upper 40s HRs almost never seeing a strike. His 73 HR season came with far fewer ABs than Ruth or McGwire. At a time when a .400 on base average was considered superb, he went over .600. While other hitters challenged Ruth's season HR record over the years, no one came remotely close to his SS slugging record--till Bonds broke that,too.

I don't think we'll ever see a more awesome display of what steroids can do.

 

[Digger]

Most accounts of Bonds' doping say he started after the '98 season when he had 37 home runs. He had already won 3 MVP awards and was on his way to the HOF.

Bonds was a great clean player on the level of maybe a Frank Robinson or Roberto Clemente, not a Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron.

My original point, and one that is going to come out in the trial, there was an unbelievable difference in Bonds the athlete after Anderson and BALCO.
Devil's advocate for a second, how do we know he wasn't on a less professional doping regimen prior to Anderson et al.

 

[Digger]

..........................................

 

[fatandfast]

I was over in Pebble Beach a couple of years ago and watched Arnold Palmer and Jack Nichols drive a couple balls, a lot of it is technique.
I agree those Oakland As McGuire and Conseco were outragous with their doping. Since I am a Giants fan I have to say Bonds was a natural champion, a genetic freak and well disciplined and coached.Puro.

I thought these players, golf and baseball got their power from their buttocks mainly. If they were snapping balls out of the park with their wrists, I thought it would cause physical damage.

I have played Pebble Beach for 14 of the last 17 years. Anything that says 400 plays more like 500yds. I also get whiffed in the 70mph batting cage. Walk out with little contact and broken spirit. There are so many things involved with both swings and lower body movement is part of it, hand-eye greatness at the top levels. I played 4 holes with Mike Schmidt in Palm Springs in a pro am. The guy was a good baseball hitter and a good golfer. I didn't ask but I think hitting a baseball is harder than a golf ball no matter what PED's you took during or before.If PED's made you better Alice Cooper would be one of the best golfers in the world.

 

[flicker]

That's absolute bulls*** - prior to his steroid taking he looked gangly and almost like a long distance runner. So to make that statement that he was an awesome athlete is complete and utter sh**.

I watched this guy in the playoffs and series, humble, gangly,kid-like, what maybe 23 years old.
http://www.google.com/images?q=lice...md=ivns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&

Likely, the best pitcher in the business.

As for Barry, most of us get heavier with time. In baseball, I guess through training players put on muscle, and fat.

 

[stephens]

I've always been puzzled by the idea that Bonds became a great player because of PEDs or got so much better. Because at the time, it was not shocking. He was always a GREAT player, certainly hall of fame level. As he got older and bigger he certainly had more power, but he was a hell of a ball player from day one.

 

[jimmypop]

I have played Pebble Beach for 14 of the last 17 years. Anything that says 400 plays more like 500yds. I also get whiffed in the 70mph batting cage. Walk out with little contact and broken spirit. There are so many things involved with both swings and lower body movement is part of it, hand-eye greatness at the top levels. I played 4 holes with Mike Schmidt in Palm Springs in a pro am. The guy was a good baseball hitter and a good golfer. I didn't ask but I think hitting a baseball is harder than a golf ball no matter what PED's you took during or before.If PED's made you better Alice Cooper would be one of the best golfers in the world.

You've gone full ***. This isn't trolling; I'm left to believe that you believe what you write, and that you're unfamiliar with logical fallacies.

 

[Race Radio]

I've always been puzzled by the idea that Bonds became a great player because of PEDs or got so much better. Because at the time, it was not shocking. He was always a GREAT player, certainly hall of fame level. As he got older and bigger he certainly had more power, but he was a hell of a ball player from day one.

Wrong

At an age when virtually every other player in major league baseball history has begun to decline in offensive skills, Bonds' ability to hit a baseball out of the park increased dramatically.

Bonds stats were starting the slow decline that is common as a player enters his mid 30's. His sudden, significant, increase in size was coupled with a huge jump in Home runs. He went from 34 HR's in 1999 to 73 in 2001.

It was shocking for a 37 year old to suddenly more then double his output in a 2 year span.

 

[Race Radio]

According to a journalist in the courtroom, who is also a lawyer, things are not looking good for Bonds.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/columns/story?id=6248471

While our resident trolls try to paint Noviztky as "looking sick" Educated observers actually in the courtroom say this

he is an impressive witness

As you watch Novitzky describe what he has done in the BALCO probe, you wish that he was the guy in charge of finding Osama Bin Laden.

The jurors were transfixed, many of them taking notes on the details of his investigation. Under cross-examination from Bonds attorney Allen Ruby, a highly skilled and experienced litigator, Novitzky matched wits successfully on every answer.

Novitzky to hit it out of the park

 

[fatandfast]

You've gone full ***. This isn't trolling; I'm left to believe that you believe what you write, and that you're unfamiliar with logical fallacies.

\

You should probably get out more. Maybe to a batting cage and driving range for a start. At the driving range you will be able to make contact with the ball, maybe even the first time. To hit the ball with any distance and accuracy is super hard, to do it over and over, next to impossible. To due it in combinations of errant shots,different weather and course conditions harder still. There is a reason that so few people are pro golfers, and it's not just practice.
Take it from somebody who was sent to summer golf camp from the age of 11. @250 bucks got you a 30 min group lesson in the morning and unlimited bag carry golf from 11am -3pm 4 days a week playing with kids your own age. Cheaper than a babysitter. Some guys would just show up and be better than many who had practiced for months/years. It just happens.

Hitting a baseball thrown rather than shot from a machine is 10x harder than the other. I am sure that any discount you put on my opinion would be verified after 5 dollars worth of 70mph fastballs from a machine. If you are in the SW San Diego School Of Baseball and the Arizona School Of Baseball both offer extensive training for whatever you find is your weakness at the plate and on the field. After trying both sports at any level, I think you will find that hitting a baseball is more difficult than a golf ball. With contact being counted as success.

There are also numerous programs to caddy for pro ams all over the country. The caddy pays for the chance to carry the bag of everything from a TV star, sports has been, to local business and political who's who. S.Cal offers loads of chances in the early spring, lots in Riverside County(Palm Springs,and surrounding areas). No matter who you carry for there will be a couple of sports stars playing, taking photos w fans and signing autographs.

Alice Cooper, I ma assuming, maybe wrongly did lots of drugs in his 45+ year career as a rock and roller. He is an avid golfer and can be seen at loads of quality golf courses in and around Phoenix/Scottsdale/Paradise Valley. I have seen him tee off but never followed his game, from internet scuttlebutt it is know he is a low handicapper and in jest I would think that drugs either helped or hurt his golf scores.

There is are lots of golf courses in around San Diego were you can see MJ, Tony Gwynn, Charles Barkley playing regularly, Mike Piazza may be a good research subject for you, the guy plays loads of charity golf,was the best hitting catcher in baseball, and knows, and is friends with 100's of heavy metal rock and rollers, again assuming rock stars have availability to good drugs

Please post a video link of you trying one or any of these sports. Don't bring friends or family to see your early efforts because they may question their association with you after the dismal results.

 

[Skandar Akbar]

Lol some are implying Bonds did not take PEDs. They will patiently be waiting for the easter bunny in a few weeks as well.

 

[flicker]

Wrong

At an age when virtually every other player in major league baseball history has begun to decline in offensive skills, Bonds' ability to hit a baseball out of the park increased dramatically.

Bonds stats were starting the slow decline that is common as a player enters his mid 30's. His sudden, significant, increase in size was coupled with a huge jump in Home runs. He went from 34 HR's in 1999 to 73 in 2001.

It was shocking for a 37 year old to suddenly more then double his output in a 2 year span.

How good was Billie Jean King at 37, Joe DiMaggio,or Babe Ruth at 37?

73 homeruns in one year, chapaue Barry!

 

[stephens]

It was shocking for a 37 year old to suddenly more then double his output in a 2 year span.

I don't think of it as simply as "doubling output." The game is not a home run contest. If you must pick one stat, then RBI is probably the one to look at in regards to one's effectiveness as an offensive player. (but that of course doesn't tell the whole story as a good hitters mere existence in the lineup helps the stats of those hitting before him because they'll get better pitches than they would have, as teams don't want to walk those players and put them on the bases for the upcoming good hitter).

Anyway, Barry Bonds was not a donkey who won the Kentucky Derby. He was a first round draft pick, who built himself into a consistent .300 hitter, 120rbi guy in the first few years of his career.

Did he use drugs? Sure. As did the pitchers he faces in that era. But to try to credit that for all of his success to drug use is silly. People get better. Even as they get older. There are lots of things I can do now that I couldn't 20 years ago at what should have been my physical peak. Athletes are that way,
too.

 

[Race Radio]

How good was Billie Jean King at 37, Joe DiMaggio,or Babe Ruth at 37?

73 homeruns in one year, chapaue Barry!

DiMaggio was retired. Ruth was on his way to retirement, hitting a fraction of his best years.

Please show us a (Clean) player who had a similar leap as Barry at 37, 38, 39.

I can understand how some may think that Barry might escape jail but few rational people think he did not dope and it did not help him greatly.

 

[flicker]

Here is a playah fo life.

Babe Ruth, .342 lifetime batting average,.690 slugging average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_Ruth#Decline_and_end_with_Yankees

If you want to compare to Barry go ahead.

 

[Race Radio]

I don't think of it as simply as "doubling output." The game is not a home run contest. If you must pick one stat, then RBI is probably the one to look at in regards to one's effectiveness as an offensive player. (but that of course doesn't tell the whole story as a good hitters mere existence in the lineup helps the stats of those hitting before him because they'll get better pitches than they would have, as teams don't want to walk those players and put them on the bases for the upcoming good hitter).

Anyway, Barry Bonds was not a donkey who won the Kentucky Derby. He was a first round draft pick, who built himself into a consistent .300 hitter, 120rbi guy in the first few years of his career.

Did he use drugs? Sure. As did the pitchers he faces in that era. But to try to credit that for all of his success to drug use is silly. People get better. Even as they get older. There are lots of things I can do now that I couldn't 20 years ago at what should have been my physical peak. Athletes are that way,
too.

Nobody is saying he was a donkey.

The stat where increased power has the most effect is Home runs. Turns a double into a homer. It is no surprise that after starting his doping regime he saw a sudden, clear, jump in output.

This jump is only enhanced by the fact that the vast majority of players his age see a significant decline. Instead starting the normal decline in production....32, 26, 22HR's Barry suddenly jumps from 34 to 49 then 70 The fact that this huge increase in output came at the end of his career makes the benefit he received from doping even more pronounced.

 

[popolo]

Wrong

At an age when virtually every other player in major league baseball history has begun to decline in offensive skills, Bonds' ability to hit a baseball out of the park increased dramatically.

Bonds stats were starting the slow decline that is common as a player enters his mid 30's. His sudden, significant, increase in size was coupled with a huge jump in Home runs. He went from 34 HR's in 1999 to 73 in 2001.

It was shocking for a 37 year old to suddenly more then double his output in a 2 year span.

I agree that the increase in power along with his size was shocking, but I don't believe his stats were on a downward trend when he started juicing. They obviously would have been soon as EVERYONE slows down but the guy had a great year without juice in '98.

You correctly point out that the guy was a doubles, line drive hitter, before PED's with mid 20's to mid 30's HR potential. When I grew up, 30 was a lot of HR's, 40 was crazy powerful, and 50 was a once every 10 year occurrance for the whole league.

Another thing being overlooked is that Bonds had great eyesight before PED's and it IMPROVED when he started taking hGH.