Is Barry Bonds' Trial The Hold Up?

[stephens]

The Bonds case was about perjury and obstruction of justice. It was also about rich people thinking that they could escape justice if their friends don't testify and they wage media campaigns about witch hunts

It became about perjury and obstruction of justice. At first it was just about the government getting involved in violations of sporting rules that should be handled by the sporting bodies. No one really cares, on the criminal level, if Bonds took steroids or Armstrong blood doped. They are no more worthy of prosecution for those things than the guys down at the local gym. Of course it's more important to their sporting agencies to catch these guys and keep their sport clean, but it's no more important on a criminal level.

As for rich people escaping justice, it is only because Bonds and Armstrong are "rich" that they are targets of Novitsky. He's not chasing the guys down at the local Gold's Gym that are more juiced up than Bonds ever was. But Novitsky comes snooping around, asks questions, gets the answers anyone would give, and then he can claim it's about perjury and obstruction of justice. No perjury nor obstruction would have taken place without Novitsky going after "rich" guys.

 

[Andynonomous]

Of course it's more important to their sporting agencies to catch these guys and keep their sport clean

Yes, because the ICU, ITF, FIFA, IOC, NFL, NBA, NHL,... are all doing such a wonderful job.


Your arguments are nothing more than moral relativism (we should ignore corruption, until all other corruption has been cleaned up). Sounds a lot like fanboy logic (you should leave my favorite who tested positive alone until all dopers who weren't caught are sanctioned).

 

[stephens]

Call it moral relativism if you like, but the fact is that we have to make choices and set priorities about what we spend our time and resources on. Stopping cheating in sports is way down the list of things I want my tax dollars to be spent on. Chasing athletes into corners so they lie or act evasively is even further down the list.

If the government really wants to get involved in pro sports drug cheating, then they should just pass a law saying that each team must contribute an amount equal to 10% of its athlete payroll to the league's team of super scientists. This team will get paid like athletes and do real research into drug/blood cheating and how to detect it scientifically so we don't have to rely on the kind of "evidence" presented in cases like Bonds'.

 

[goober]

Yes, because the ICU, ITF, FIFA, IOC, NFL, NBA, NHL,... are all doing such a wonderful job.


Your arguments are nothing more than moral relativism (we should ignore corruption, until all other corruption has been cleaned up). Sounds a lot like fanboy logic (you should leave my favorite who tested positive alone until all dopers who weren't caught are sanctioned).

You should read his post again - totally misinterpreted what he was trying to say with that specific sentence, probably because you wanted to spew the word fanboy and you were not thinking clearly.

Stephens - I don't find any of your comments "fanboy" or "pro-Lance" and just your well thought out opinion of how you feel about government priorities, etc.

 

[Zweistein]

It became about perjury and obstruction of justice. At first it was just about the government getting involved in violations of sporting rules that should be handled by the sporting bodies. No one really cares, on the criminal level, if Bonds took steroids or Armstrong blood doped. They are no more worthy of prosecution for those things than the guys down at the local gym. Of course it's more important to their sporting agencies to catch these guys and keep their sport clean, but it's no more important on a criminal level.

As for rich people escaping justice, it is only because Bonds and Armstrong are "rich" that they are targets of Novitsky. He's not chasing the guys down at the local Gold's Gym that are more juiced up than Bonds ever was. But Novitsky comes snooping around, asks questions, gets the answers anyone would give, and then he can claim it's about perjury and obstruction of justice. No perjury nor obstruction would have taken place without Novitsky going after "rich" guys.

It has nothing to do with being rich or dope use. It is 100% about perjury. He isn't chasing down Andy Pettite, half the people in the NFL, or some gym meathead. What kind of message is being sent if there are no consequences to lying in front of a grand jury? Pursuing perjury cases are more about preserving the system than trying hit to a rich target.

 

[goober]

It has nothing to do with being rich or dope use. It is 100% about perjury. He isn't chasing down Andy Pettite, half the people in the NFL, or some gym meathead. What kind of message is being sent if there are no consequences to lying in front of a grand jury? Pursuing perjury cases are more about preserving the system than trying hit to a rich target.

NEITHER the Bonds or "Lance" investigations started with PERJURY and were NOT 100% about PERJURY. Get your facts straight.

 

[Granville57]

Inside the courtroom

The Bob McCown show this afternoon, a sports talk show out of Toronto. Interesting stuff.

This is the link to the mp3 from the show today ( 2011.04.14) just about the first 10 minutes or so.

http://www.fan590.com/onair/primetimesports/

Thanks for that link. Very interesting reporting from Lester Munson.

We’ll be hearing a lot more him as the Clemens and Armstrong cases move forward, no doubt.

08:25
“What concerns me is the attitude that this judge—her name is Susan Illston—the attitude that she has displayed throughout the pre-trial skirmishing and during the trial.

“She does not like the Balco investigation; she somehow has decided that a steroid investigation is beneath her dignity; she has this...what I would call kind of a “San Francisco, anti-government” way about her.

“I’ve been around courts all my life. I have never seen a judge treat sworn officers of the law the way she treated these prosecutors. She would roll her eyes, she would interrupt them, she gave them these withering glances, and the jury, I’m sure saw some of that...”


11:45
“The other three charges remain alive. The government has not yet said it will abandon those charges. And they’re not gonna to do that until they find out what she—Susan Illston—does with this obstruction conviction. So there’s...all these things are kind of floating around and they’re waiting to see what she does.”


16:15 On Greg Anderson:
“Now that there has been a conviction, the prosecutors in San Francisco must make a decision on whether they will further pursue Greg Anderson. They could charge him with felony criminal contempt for his repeated refusals to testify. I know that they are looking at that, that they have had people in the office studying that avenue...”

 

[stephens]

What kind of message is being sent if there are no consequences to lying in front of a grand jury? Pursuing perjury cases are more about preserving the system than trying hit to a rich target.

How many non-famous body builders get hauled in front of a grand jury and asked if they took steroids? None.

 

[Zweistein]

NEITHER the Bonds or "Lance" investigations started with PERJURY and were NOT 100% about PERJURY. Get your facts straight.

The investigation started with an investigation of gov. moneys spent on doping but Lance wasn't a target. He became a target when it surfaced that he had lied several times over the years. Like I said before, Andy Pettite is not being persued for anything and confessed to doping. Nowitsky couldn't give less of a shhit about Pettite. If Bonds just said yeah I doped to hit homeruns, that would have been it. If Armstrong admitted he dopedstrong, that would have been it. He would have lost the SCA lawsuit but there wouldn't have been a perjury trial. Pride goes before the fall.

 

[Zweistein]

How many non-famous body builders get hauled in front of a grand jury and asked if they took steroids? None.

Why anyone is brought in front of a grand jury has no relevance. DON"T LIE IN COURT AND THIS WON"T HAPPEN TO YOU. You are completely forgetting he lied in front of a jury years ago when they were contesting that he shouldn't get his tour winnings because he doped. Yeah, Lance won that case only because the SCA didn't have anything in writing stated that it required its riders to be clean to collect. The outcome didn't give any credence to Lance being clean.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

How many non-famous body builders get hauled in front of a grand jury and asked if they took steroids? None.

How many non-famous body builders were customers of BALCO and had access to non detectable PEDs for use in competition?

 

[JRTinMA]

Why anyone is brought in front of a grand jury has no relevance. DON"T LIE IN COURT AND THIS WON"T HAPPEN TO YOU. You are completely forgetting he lied in front of a jury years ago when they were contesting that he shouldn't get his tour winnings because he doped. Yeah, Lance won that case only because the SCA didn't have anything in writing stated that it required its riders to be clean to collect. The outcome didn't give any credence to Lance being clean.

He didn't win the case, the case was settled. LA walked out and said something to the effect of, "it's over we won". This of course was a lie.

 

[JRTinMA]

The investigation started with an investigation of gov. moneys spent on doping but Lance wasn't a target. He became a target when it surfaced that he had lied several times over the years. Like I said before, Andy Pettite is not being persued for anything and confessed to doping. Nowitsky couldn't give less of a shhit about Pettite. If Bonds just said yeah I doped to hit homeruns, that would have been it. If Armstrong admitted he dopedstrong, that would have been it. He would have lost the SCA lawsuit but there wouldn't have been a perjury trial. Pride goes before the fall.

His lies had nothing to do with how he became a target of the investigation. To the second bold, what perjury trial are you referring to? Charges have not come down and there has not been a perjury trial.

 

[stephens]

How many non-famous body builders were customers of BALCO and had access to non detectable PEDs for use in competition?

You've kind of just made my point. The case against Bonds doesn't exist because he was accused (though not convicted) of lying. The case exists because BALCO was targeted because it had clients that were famous and Novitsky goes for that stuff. But for the record, you could have walked in off the street and begun a relationship with Balco that would get you the same stuff they were allegedly providing to pro athletes.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You've kind of just made my point. The case against Bonds doesn't exist because he was accused (though not convicted) of lying. The case exists because BALCO was targeted because it had clients that were famous and Novitsky goes for that stuff. But for the record, you could have walked in off the street and begun a relationship with Balco that would get you the same stuff they were allegedly providing to pro athletes.

When you say "Novitsky goes for that stuff" - you mean making and selling illegal drugs that cannot be detected so athletes can dope and make vast sums of money.

Actually the 'reason' the case made the news is because of its high profile athletes - however many other busts are done in the US on gyms that don't make the news - BALCO and their customers should be treated like everyone else.

Some examples:
Dozens Arrested in Fort Bend Bust
Cops bust steroid ring operated out of two Queens gyms
3 arrested in steroid bust at Oxford fitness center

 

[Race Radio]

Impressive dissinformation campaign.

Bonds was told clearly that he was not a target of the investigation, unless he lied. He was even given documents that outlined this. The same choice was given to over a dozen other BALCO customers, they chose to tell the truth....Bonds chose to lie.

The investigation was focused on the manufacture, distribution, and sale of controlled substances. It was not until Bonds decided to lie to investigators and impede the investigation that he became a target and not a witness.

The media campaign attempts to paint Novitzky as a fame seeker, the facts do not support this.

 

[skippythepinhead]

stephens wrote:

Call it moral relativism if you like, but the fact is that we have to make choices and set priorities about what we spend our time and resources on.

Here are some other cost-effective measures you could argue for in your continuing disinformation campaign that would leave lots of money to prosecute obstruction and perjury charges:

We spend $30,000/year to imprison people for "life without parole" sentences when we could much more cheaply deny them appeals and simply incinerate them in a pit. Also, we spend $30,000/year to imprison a man for rape when it would be much cheaper to remove his offending organs and then set him to work sewing dresses. I'm attempting to calculate the cost savings with just these two small changes--my preliminary estimate is that we'd have enough left over after paying for the Bonds prosecution to buy everyone in America a soft-serve ice cream on their birthdays every year for the rest of their lives. Wouldn't that ice cream taste delicious!

The cost/benefit argument is the lowest on the hierarchy of arguments against prosecuting obstruction and perjury in what is at root a drug case that could have ended if Barry Bonds had simply cooperated and walked away, but you probably already understand this on some level, it's just hard for you to come up with a real reason. I don't know if you'll be able to understand this, as clouded as your mind is with the current groupthink faux outrage over the "expense" of prosecution of crimes your peers have assigned to the 'petty' category: the 'sports performance enhancing' part of the phrase 'illegal use and distribution of sports performance enhancing drugs' is actually irrelevant.

What is unfortunate is the appearance that this is all about Barry Bonds. However, Barry Bonds lied to a grand jury and Greg Anderson chose to go to prison rather than corroborate that fact. If Barry Bonds had learned to repeat the phrase "I do not recall" the government never would have been placed in the position of needing to decide whether to prosecute him for lying UNDER OATH.

Others who have lied under oath or obstructed justice or congress need to be held to account regardless of the cost or their station. That some are not is no argument against the current case. The fact is, the government makes many of its cost/benefit judgments based on the likelihood they will win a particular case. In the present case, their judgment was actually proven correct by a jury and petty people want to flog them for doing their jobs.

And how do we calculate the cost or the benefits? If one kid ends up not killing himself on steroids because he learned it ends badly no matter how you end up being punished for it (the crime or the cover up), what's that worth? How much should the pursuit of a level playing field cost? Why shouldn't the government enforce existing law regardless of the responsibility of sports governing authorities?

Actually, the cost benefit argument is not the lowest of the low-hanging fruit, I take that back. The racial argument in the Bonds case is lower than the c/b argument.

 

[goober]

The investigation started with an investigation of gov. moneys spent on doping but Lance wasn't a target. He became a target when it surfaced that he had lied several times over the years. Like I said before, Andy Pettite is not being persued for anything and confessed to doping. Nowitsky couldn't give less of a shhit about Pettite. If Bonds just said yeah I doped to hit homeruns, that would have been it. If Armstrong admitted he dopedstrong, that would have been it. He would have lost the SCA lawsuit but there wouldn't have been a perjury trial. Pride goes before the fall.

When you have your facts straight on how the investigations started I will discuss with you.

 

[Polish]

When you have your facts straight on how the investigations started I will discuss with you.

I agree with you that Zweistein is off base as to how the investigation into cycling started...

My sources are telling me that as Novitsky was driving to work in his black Volare sedan he calls "Justice" on a fine Los Angeles morning 2 years ago, a Rock Racing rider out on a training ride cut him off in traffic.

The rider flashed Novitsky the "Anarchy" sign and pounded his fist on "Justice". Bad move dude - you don't mess with "Justice".
Turtle Wax Sheen.

Anyway, later that day Novitsky angrily picked up a Velonews from a co-workers desk and saw a story on Michael Ball and his Bad Boy Team.
Novitsky found himself with a raging clue.....and the investigation began.

Now back to BALCO. BFD. Thousands of steroid distributors.
Sure, BALCO became famous because of the BALCO investigation.

And because of all the attention/fame from the BALCO trial and its Chief Investigator Mr Novitsky, Conte's new endeavor "SNAC" is shipping like gangbusters. Differentiated from the pack of all the ot the distributors.

Government money ends up promoting SNAC.

But that is not the message here.

The message is "Don't Obstruct Justice".

 

[skippythepinhead]

I agree with you that Zweistein is off base as to how the investigation into cycling started...

My sources are telling me that as Novitsky was driving to work in his black Volare sedan he calls "Justice" on a fine Los Angeles morning 2 years ago, a Rock Racing rider out on a training ride cut him off in traffic.

The rider flashed Novitsky the "Anarchy" sign and pounded his fist on "Justice". Bad move dude - you don't mess with "Justice".
Turtle Wax Sheen.

Anyway, later that day Novitsky angrily picked up a Velonews from a co-workers desk and saw a story on Michael Ball and his Bad Boy Team.
Novitsky found himself with a raging clue.....and the investigation began.

Now back to BALCO. BFD. Thousands of steroid distributors.
Sure, BALCO became famous because of the BALCO investigation.

And because of all the attention/fame from the BALCO trial and its Chief Investigator Mr Novitsky, Conte's new endeavor "SNAC" is shipping like gangbusters. Differentiated from the pack of all the ot the distributors.

Government money ends up promoting SNAC.

But that is not the message here.

The message is "Don't Obstruct Justice".

Or you could live in reality: http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-12-24/news/17323738_1_balco-school-sports-steroid

 

[flicker]

Or you could live in reality: http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-12-24/news/17323738_1_balco-school-sports-steroid

I guess if Contador had read the article he never would have gotten a pos.

 

[skippythepinhead]

I guess if Contador had read the article he never would have gotten a pos.

To move from PEDs being encouraged/celebrated/ignored/tolerated to awareness and discussion is a big climb that takes lots of little steps. If we eventually end up at "reasonably assured that the playing field is level for people to compete cleanly," we'll have come a really long way.

 

[flicker]

To move from PEDs being encouraged/celebrated/ignored/tolerated to awareness and discussion is a big climb that takes lots of little steps. If we eventually end up at "reasonably assured that the playing field is level for people to compete cleanly," we'll have come a really long way.

I respect Mark Fairinu, and the article, however to expect the Bonds' trial to effect PED use, pro or con would be dreaming. Look at this, high school ball player,(or cyclist) and look at the money, glory, women,involved in becoming a PED user/abuser and I predilect that the Bond's trial would be a good advert for PED use.

 

[SpeedWay]

I respect Mark Fairinu, and the article, however to expect the Bonds' trial to effect PED use, pro or con would be dreaming. Look at this, high school ball player,(or cyclist) and look at the money, glory, women,involved in becoming a PED user/abuser and I predilect that the Bond's trial would be a good advert for PED use.

The whole trial was an epic failure. NO ONE IN THE REAL WORLD CARES. All you have to do is google "Bonds trial a waste of money" and you'll find out what the real people in the real world think about their hard earned money going to support this dog and pony show. Only those with another agenda support this kind of waste.

 

[Polish]

Or you could live in reality: http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-12-24/news/17323738_1_balco-school-sports-steroid

That reality is 5 years old.
It is history.

This is reality 2011:
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_17627687?nclick_check=1
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