Is EPO currently being used at Major tours

[stuart__]

Obviously EPO was rampant through the 90’s and in the first decade of the 2000’s.

That said famously the time that won the Alpe D’Huez in 2011 would have earned a 40th place finish in 2001 so I think it’s fair to say the sport was relatively clean at that point.

I understand my opening paragraph is like explaining 1 + 1 = 2 to the regulars on here.

My question is, do you think EPO is currently being used at Major tours like the Tour De France, Giro Italia etc. If yes, to what extent, as much as in the Armstrong era?

 

[jmdirt]

No. EPO was never actually used in pro cycling, that was a conspiracy to eliminate riders from the USA (who hadn't actually even used EPO), from being competitive with Euro riders using motors.

 

[fmk_RoI]

That said famously the time that won the Alpe D’Huez in 2011 would have earned a 40th place finish in 2001 so I think it’s fair to say the sport was relatively clean at that point.

Is that that crap Tyler Hamilton claimed in that book of his but which, when checked against reality, was found to be total toss?

 

[stuart__]

Is that that crap Tyler Hamilton claimed in that book of his but which, when checked against reality, was found to be total toss?

Are you implying it’s been used constantly since 1990? Can you give a serious response? How do you explain the Alpe D’Huez result in 2011 if EPO wasn’t being used?

 

[Sciatic]

Are you implying it’s been used constantly since 1990? Can you give a serious response? How do you explain the Alpe D’Huez result in 2011 if EPO wasn’t being used?

I think you’d be best served by searching for the various threads with EPO or “blood” in the titles. There is an immense amount of information loaded in them, more than you’ll ever have time to read.

However, the brief answer is “Yes”

 

[shalgo]

Are you implying it’s been used constantly since 1990? Can you give a serious response? How do you explain the Alpe D’Huez result in 2011 if EPO wasn’t being used?

If I am reading this list correctly (https://cycling-passion.com/top-200-fastest-climbs-alpe-d-huez/), then the top time in 2011 would have finished 6th in 2001, not 40th.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Are you implying it’s been used constantly since 1990? Can you give a serious response? How do you explain the Alpe D’Huez result in 2011 if EPO wasn’t being used?

Can't read, won't read.

You're not seeking the truth, you just want affirmation, why else rely on a complete fabrication for your argument and then get upset when called out on it?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Likely in small doses, which are more difficult to detect. Plus probably blood transfusions and some newer stuff (which we don't know about yet).

 

[Cookster15]

I think you’d be best served by searching for the various threads with EPO or “blood” in the titles. There is an immense amount of information loaded in them, more than you’ll ever have time to read.

However, the brief answer is “Yes”

I agree, but I think its worthwhile resurrecting the subject since as per your bolded comment, who has the time to trawl back through the various threads with EPO or “blood” in the titles (not me) ?

Alpe times during the TdF are an excellent reference point for the level of doping in the peloton. In my opinion the peloton and the team doctors simply evolved to the rules. A bit like Formula 1 racing. The 2011 TdF (~42 minutes) is a great reference point for when the peloton was cleanest before the arms race recommenced. Also the 2010 TdF seemed obviously slower than 2009. But Alpe times are still not approaching the incredible records set by Marco Pantani in the 90s on a slower and heavier bike (sub 37 minutes). I doubt even Pogacar would get close whatever he is using.

Doctors have learned how to manipulate rider blood profiles to optimize oxygen transfer and not trigger an adverse result on the UCI passport. It think what has been discussed is EPO micro dosing is still possible and is still being done.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I doubt even Pogacar would get close whatever he is using.

According to my estimates a time of about 38 minutes would be possible for peak Pogacar (assuming 3-4% drop of performance vs his 20-25 minute VAM on 8% climbs) and probably under 38 minutes in case of a TT. So around peak Armstrong times with only Pantani significantly better. Contador of 2009 would likely have been able to achieve similar time as well. These two have been the best candidates to get closer to EPO era Alpe records.

 

[Cookster15]

If I am reading this list correctly (https://cycling-passion.com/top-200-fastest-climbs-alpe-d-huez/), then the top time in 2011 would have finished 6th in 2001, not 40th.

The top time in 2011 is 41'26 - Sammy Sanchez. 2001 was immediately after the EPO test became available but before doctors had moved onto perfect transfusions.

 

[Cookster15]

According to my estimates a time of about 38 minutes would be possible for peak Pogacar (assuming 3-4% drop of performance vs his 20-25 minute VAM) and probably under 38 minutes in case of a TT. So around peak Armstrong times with only Pantani significantly better. Contador of 2009 would likely have been able to achieve similar time as well.

Yes, I'd agree with your estimates for Pogi and Contador 2009. But again Schleck and Contador 2010 weren't at that level. 2008 was another low point like 2011. Then a big step up in 2009.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

One more observation. I think they have some good stuff for regeneration. Nowadays they recover quickly from deep efforts and perform well afterwards. No matter if it's about consecutive mountain stages or some one-day races.

 

[Parker]

Every time Alpe d'Huez came around The Clinic used to be buzzing with excitement at how Sky and Froome would set new records. It would be awesome. In reality, Froome has the the 90th best time.

 

[topt]

yes, micro dosing if done right can and will get past tests

 

[Sciatic]

Every time Alpe d'Huez came around The Clinic used to be buzzing with excitement at how Sky and Froome would set new records. It would be awesome. In reality, Froome has the the 90th best time.

They usually had wrapped up the win by the time they reached an Alpe stage, so he was usually riding defensively.

 

[Cookster15]

They usually had wrapped up the win by the time they reached an Alpe stage, so he was usually riding defensively.

Disagree. Alpe is always raced hard. Even Thomas 2018 didn’t break 40 minutes despite being pulled from the bottom by the Sky train then launching from the front in the closing kms.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Every time Alpe d'Huez came around The Clinic used to be buzzing with excitement at how Sky and Froome would set new records. It would be awesome. In reality, Froome has the the 90th best time.

Froome underperformed at Alpe on purpose - to save CN servers from exploding. Pog & Rog may do something similar this year.

 

[SafeBet]

Disagree. Alpe is always raced hard. Even Thomas 2018 didn’t break 40 minutes despite being pulled from the bottom by the Sky train then launching from the front in the closing kms.

Thomas was pulled from the bottom but then Nibali crashed and the front group with Dumoulin, Bardet etc stalled. There were a few attacks but they only really got going in the final km or less.
Nibali himself finished only 13 seconds down despite crashing and having a broken vertebrae.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Likely in small doses, which are more difficult to detect. Plus probably blood transfusions and some newer stuff (which we don't know about yet).

Newer stuff like HBOCs, which we do know about and have the advantages of being faster acting and have a lower glow time? Seems like the Clinic is living in the past...

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Newer stuff like HBOCs, which we do know about and have the advantages of being faster acting and have a lower glow time? Seems like the Clinic is living in the past...

Ha, mybe the Clinic is living in the past indeed. Maybe the new generation of champions don't need normal doping at all cause they are mutants enhanced in some lab (gene doping).

 

[fmk_RoI]

Maybe the new generation of champions don't need normal doping at all cause they are mutants enhanced in some lab (gene doping).

Going from the past to a sci-fi future...

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Going from the past to a sci-fi future...

Pogi may not have horse's heart yet but perhaps EPO gene doping could be possible in the near future.

 

[fmk_RoI]

perhaps EPO gene doping could be possible in the near future.

Stick to the present and leave possible alternative futures to Marvel.

 

[Netserk]

The best semi recent (2019) article I've read about the state of play: https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/biological-passport-have-dopers-found-ways-to-beat-it/