Is it safe in Here??

[RigelKent]

Seems pretty clear to me: OK to rip a cycling personality. OK to rip a post. Not OK to rip a poster. It's pretty standard. And it's one of the reasons the old SNL skit was so funny when Akroyd would say "Jane, you ignorant s!ut!" He was violating all rules of civil debate.
Lance is an idiot! (fair game)
Your post was idiotic! (fair game)
You are an idiot! (out of bounds)

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Well, it will be interesting to see which posters you selected as moderators. To be frank, moderation often kills forums than no moderation at all as the perspective of appointed moderator trumps all other perspectives. As a result, threads close, posters banished, and the forum becomes one huge clique. The entire premise of a forum is to exchange ideas. Moderation always stifles open discourse. As previous posters have suggested, as long as thread don't threaten physical violence, readers ought to develop thick skins.

I would agree with you on this. I am not a member of any other forum so I cant compare, however if people have control over content - as opposed to personal attacks- then it could quickly smother any proper debate.

I would slightly disagree on your second point though - if someone is being insulted or indeed has their argument insulted or ridiculed (for having an opposing view) it often keeps out other members from contributing to a point - or joining the forum altogether.

 

[BroDeal]

Seems pretty clear to me: OK to rip a cycling personality. OK to rip a post. Not OK to rip a poster. It's pretty standard. And it's one of the reasons the old SNL skit was so funny when Akroyd would say "Jane, you ignorant s!ut!" He was violating all rules of civil debate.
Lance is an idiot! (fair game)
Your post was idiotic! (fair game)
You are an idiot! (out of bounds)

All that needs to be done is to consistently get rid of the personal insults, the complaints about people posting opinions, and the sweeping attacks on imaginary factions of the membership. 90% of the problems then go away.

The drive by moderation practiced by the CN staff does not work well because of its inconsistency. When people are warned for minor things while they see far worse given free rein it breeds contempt for the process. We can see a similar thing with the word filter. It is so ridiculous that the name of the former head of WADA cannot be used; common expressions like p-issed off, media w-hore, and kicking b-utt are filtered; and even the p-oof in sp-oof is starred out. Members are forced to find ways around it in order to express themselves. It is like prohibition where contempt for the laws against alcohol led to contempt for law in general.

We should probably all try to step back from the edge and set a different tone for the forum.

 

[Amsterhammer]

I'm delighted to hear that we're going to get some 'proper', hands-on moderation at last.

Now, in the nicest possible way, a few very brief comments.

All that needs to be done is to consistently get rid of the personal insults, the complaints about people posting opinions, and the sweeping attacks on imaginary factions of the membership. 90% of the problems then go away.

90% of the problems exist because a minority of posters with "extreme" anti-LA sentiments insist on repeating these everywhere, literally ad nauseum, and because some more senior posters cannot resist the urge to respond abusively to new posters with differing views. Look around the racing forum, just see how many sad and disappointed posts there are from people who can't believe how 'newbies' get treated.

These 'newbies' are entirely abused by one not imaginary faction, namely those who hold 'extreme' anti-LA views, not by anyone else!

I distinctly recall you posting something like (admittedly, in a different context) 'nothing ever changes if you don't complain'.

We should probably all try to step back from the edge and set a different tone for the forum.

Totally agree, and something that can be easily achieved if you and a few others set a good example, as I will gladly do.

 

[TRDean]

I'm delighted to hear that we're going to get some 'proper', hands-on moderation at last.

Now, in the nicest possible way, a few very brief comments.




90% of the problems exist because a minority of posters with "extreme" anti-LA sentiments insist on repeating these everywhere, literally ad nauseum, and because some more senior posters cannot resist the urge to respond abusively to new posters with differing views. Look around the racing forum, just see how many sad and disappointed posts there are from people who can't believe how 'newbies' get treated.

These 'newbies' are entirely abused by one not imaginary faction, namely those who hold 'extreme' anti-LA views, not by anyone else!

I distinctly recall you posting something like (admittedly, in a different context) 'nothing ever changes if you don't complain'.



Totally agree, and something that can be easily achieved if you and a few others set a good example, as I will gladly do.

Amster...I tend to agree 100% with BroDeal on this one. I think you are trying to come off as some perfect internet citizen. I think you would have better legs to stand on if I saw you berate one of "your kind" for the attacks that I have seen on these boards...but it is always the "haters" you target. Don't tell me this isn't because the haters have a different opinion than you...otherwise I would see you taking on all negative posts, but alas, I don't. Lastly, your last sentence is a joke. Once again..you are perfect. You set an example and go with it...but I see you have once again put the onus on the haters....why is that? Oh yea, they are the only problem.

By the way...funny thing...I have been labeled a hater and a fanboy on these boards. I don't really care... Try to have some fun...relax...and don't take yourself too seriously.

 

[elapid]

90% of the problems exist because a minority of posters with "extreme" anti-LA sentiments insist on repeating these everywhere, literally ad nauseum, and because some more senior posters cannot resist the urge to respond abusively to new posters with differing views. Look around the racing forum, just see how many sad and disappointed posts there are from people who can't believe how 'newbies' get treated.

I agree with your sentiments, but not your one-sided view. The rabidly pro-Lance crew are just as bad and just as populous as the anti-Lance bunch. You are just generally on the pro-Lance side and hence feel the anti-Lance sentiments, but I know I get blown away by some of the comments from the pro-Lance crew when I post something negative about Lance regardless of how well informed that opinion may be.

I agree with your concerns about new posters, but there is the new kid on the block thing going on as well. The older posters seem to understand (or tolerate) each other's nuances. For instance, BigBoat can be like a troll, Alpe is almost always informative and considers his posts, BroDeal is usually the same, Dimspace is entertaining, and TFF is usually quite witty in his retorts and stirring people up. There are a lot more that I have not named, but most fall into the Alpe and BroDeal category. The new kid on the block then joins and doesn't understand this dynamic, particularly with people like TFF. We should make new forum members feel welcome, but they should also realise they need time to understand the dynamics and vibe of the forum, just as they would if they were back in the school yard. Alpe is also correct in that many of the threads and posts of newbies have often been argued ad nauseum and a quick search would eliminate some of the repetitiveness of "here we go again". And then there is the fact that Lance is a very polarising figure - no matter where you go you are going to get some heated debates and some people will not be able to stand the heat. TFF is definitely going to stand his ground, but I figure he would do this in person too.

 

[cody_57]

Not all the arguments and insults are around LA, or commenting on something that's already been discussed/got its own thread. I got my (virtual) head bitten off for disagreeing with a blanket statement about riders focusing on 1 GT per season and got called a "2-post wonder" and a "jag-off" and (not expecting it) was completely taken aback and ready to go back to the yahoo threads where that happened all the time and you enter a thread wearing the kevlar vest to start with. Good thing I didn't, because there are some really good info and opinions to be found here!

To use the schoolyard analogy used earlier though, the problem exists that when you walk up to a group you do not know, you cannot know how to behave towards each member without some interaction first and maybe a little leeway initially to figure it out will be nice?

 

[BroDeal]

It would be nice to get the tech posts in the pro cycling forum moved to the gear forum. We are starting to get threads that don't really fit the racing forum, and that causes the same problem as dupe threads pushing other current threads to the limbo of the second page.

EDIT: Great. Don't try to tell someone to use Chamois Butt'r in a post without italicizing letters. The word filter will star it out.

 

[Oldman]

I agree with your sentiments, but not your one-sided view. The rabidly pro-Lance crew are just as bad and just as populous as the anti-Lance bunch. You are just generally on the pro-Lance side and hence feel the anti-Lance sentiments, but I know I get blown away by some of the comments from the pro-Lance crew when I post something negative about Lance regardless of how well informed that opinion may be.

I agree with your concerns about new posters, but there is the new kid on the block thing going on as well. The older posters seem to understand (or tolerate) each other's nuances. For instance, BigBoat can be like a troll, Alpe is almost always informative and considers his posts, BroDeal is usually the same, Dimspace is entertaining, and TFF is usually quite witty in his retorts and stirring people up. There are a lot more that I have not named, but most fall into the Alpe and BroDeal category. The new kid on the block then joins and doesn't understand this dynamic, particularly with people like TFF. We should make new forum members feel welcome, but they should also realise they need time to understand the dynamics and vibe of the forum, just as they would if they were back in the school yard. Alpe is also correct in that many of the threads and posts of newbies have often been argued ad nauseum and a quick search would eliminate some of the repetitiveness of "here we go again". And then there is the fact that Lance is a very polarising figure - no matter where you go you are going to get some heated debates and some people will not be able to stand the heat. TFF is definitely going to stand his ground, but I figure he would do this in person too.

There is alot of good information in these forums. I've been viewing the website for years but just engaged in the forums and appreciate the good information and mostly laugh at the chest-thumping. It's good to have some polarity to stimulate discussion and I appreciate that disagreements with my posts have generally focused on facts and not personality. That's probably about to end but the skin is thick...and very old.

 

[Amsterhammer]

As far as the word filter goes, I post and have posted on forums where you can write absolutely anything with impunity, and on forums where you can't write jack sh!t without it getting bleeped. So, I can deal with both kinds (yeah, yeah, country and western). This place is somewhere in the middle, because you can sneak certain things past the filter once you know how and nothing happens - either because no mod sees it or no mod cares.

In short - clarity, please! A reasonable, clear, simple set of rules or guidelines that rational adults should be able to live with, that are actually enforced, and where there are consequences for (severe) transgressions. I would personally be happiest with no word filter at all, and more of an 'honor system'. Old school, me.

 

[BroDeal]

Closing the Armstrong thread was probably an ill-thought-out idea. Somone did not consider what purpose that thread served and what the likely consequences will be with it closed.

Just sayin'...

 

[Bala Verde]

It's getting nasty out there. I think I'll bounce for a while from the main 'racing/cycling forum'. No one seems to talk about cycling/racing. Post TdF stupidity is more common, than an analysis or discussion of a (any/upcoming) race.

The main page seems to have turned into a troll bait feeding frenzy while its anti-climactic outcome is a fullfledged lambasting contest between a bunch of whining soap opera aficionados that have dived too deep into the lives of people who ride bikes for a living and express themselves through the media.

The crap that is spewed there reminds me of the Sun, including some of the pictures.

 

[BroDeal]

It's getting nasty out there. I think I'll bounce for a while from the main 'racing/cycling forum'. No one seems to talk about cycling/racing. Post TdF stupidity is more common, than an analysis or discussion of a (any/upcoming) race.

The main page seems to have turned into a troll bait feeding frenzy while its anti-climactic outcome is a fullfledged lambasting contest between a bunch of whining soap opera aficionados that have dived too deep into the lives of people who ride bikes for a living and express themselves through the media.

The crap that is spewed there reminds me of the Sun, including some of the pictures.

Which is why the Armstrong thread should not have been closed. All the Armstrong twitter threads should have been appended to the one thread, so that most of the Armstrong stuff would stay largely isolated.

 

[pmcg76]

Closing the Armstrong thread was probably an ill-thought-out idea. Somone did not consider what purpose that thread served and whay the likely consequences will be with it closed.

Just sayin'...

I agree it was a mistake to close the Lance thread, another few weeks and most of the Lance who appeared during the Tour will be gone anyway, many have disappeared already although I think the more general cycling fans like Amsterhammer will stick around.

I dont post as often as Alpe, Dim, BroDeal or TFF or others but I try to keep my posts free of vitriol or insults. It is very difficult to do sometimes because some people who have limited knowledge of the sport feed of the hype, especially around Lance and post based on what Lance says or his media machines feed us.

Just as an example there was a guy who was on last night posting how Lance brought all these US companies to the sport which without the sport wouldnt survive. Now I totally agree Lance has increased the profile of the sport but as I pointed out, most of the companies he mentioned USPS, Nike, Trek, Cannondale were already involved in pro cycling before Lance became cosmic in the 99 Tour. He did bring a few sponsors Discovery/Radio Shack and increased visiblility in the US but not in Europe.

A lots of posters cycling knowledge does not extend back beyond 99 and I understand you started following the sport whenever but perhaps people should do a bit of research or fact checking before going of on one. I know when I started following in 89, I loved any articles related to cycling history, especially the preceeding decade and learned a lot about a gnereation I never witnessed.

It is difficult to be patient with newbies but we have to presevere, I do think people like TFF can be a bit too harsh at times. The insults and jibes are not necessary and neither are the silly back and forths one liners we get sometimes. The one think I have noticed is if you post a clear concise intelligent post, it will almost always get ignored. I always take that as a sign that you made a good post that is mostly correct.

We are currently in post Tour depression but San Sebastian will be soon, thankfully.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Which is why the Armstrong thread should not have been closed. All the Armstrong twitter threads should have been appended to the one thread, so that most of the Armstrong stuff would stay largely isolated.

Unfortunately the LA thread had descended to a new low - but closing it is only going to move that on to multiple threads on the main racing forum.

There are 3 separate threads on the LA/AC fallout - and the stuff in there is getting very nasty. Is it me are have things taken a bad turn over the last couple of days?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

..... The one think I have noticed is if you post a clear concise intelligent post, it will almost always get ignored. I always take that as a sign that you made a good post that is mostly correct....

As always your posts it is a fair reflection on things - however the above quote made me chuckle. Yes, very well put!

 

[saphblue]

Maybe we could designate a special Cage Fight thread so that whenever folks begin to get heated and insulting they have to take it over there. At that point they can just have at it and others can either join in, tune in to watch for entertainment (kind of like how you have to look when driving past a bad accident) or ignore it altogether.

I'll second this idea. I post on a forum where personal attacks are discouraged through a series of warnings and eventual banning. But, there is a thread on the forum where people can go to have it out with each other with very little moderation. It really helps to keep the converstations on track. There are still passionate opinions expressed, but without the interperonal nastiness.

 

[pmcg76]

Going of the topic Dr.Maserati but have you heard any more on teams coming to Tour of Ireland. The Tour of Britain has announced their teams and thats not until September. All we have is Columbia/Astana/An Post. I want to know if its worth going all the way to Cork again. Any word on Roche/Martin/Deignan taking part.

 

[BroDeal]

I'll second this idea. I post on a forum where personal attacks are discouraged through a series of warnings and eventual banning. But, there is a thread on the forum where people can go to have it out with each other with very little moderation. It really helps to keep the converstations on track. There are still passionate opinions expressed, but without the interperonal nastiness.

In some ways the Armstrong thread was serving that purpose.

Going of the topic Dr.Maserati but have you heard any more on teams coming to Tour of Ireland. The Tour of Britain has announced their teams and thats not until September. All we have is Columbia/Astana/An Post. I want to know if its worth going all the way to Cork again. Any word on Roche/Martin/Deignan taking part.

Cyclingstartlists.com does not even have a page up yet for Ireland. That site typically has the best info.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Going of the topic Dr.Maserati but have you heard any more on teams coming to Tour of Ireland. The Tour of Britain has announced their teams and thats not until September. All we have is Columbia/Astana/An Post. I want to know if its worth going all the way to Cork again. Any word on Roche/Martin/Deignan taking part.

I expect Garmin and Saxo to be there. Not sure about Cervelo - perhaps Deignan could get a guest spot on the Ireland team. I've heard nothing on Roche! If I have any updates I will post them on the Tour of Ireland thread we used earlier!

 

[Amsterhammer]

Agree that closing the LA sticky, which served a certain purpose, was not a good idea. I've been away since my last post (maybe five hours ago) and a quick scan of the main 'racing' page is indeed a bit of a shock.

We can all be as reasonable as we like, but if there isn't some active moderation other than simply stepping in to close a topic, then we're going to stay in trouble. And yes, since I never considered myself a 'fanboy' but someone who doesn't hate any rider and who loves the sport, I'm not disappearing and I'm looking forward to San Sebastian! I even watch the two minute nightly criterium highlights, for Christ's sake.

If a mod reads this - I suggested to Susan yesterday that the LA topic should be closed because it was simply too big at well over 100 pages. I suggested that it should simply be replaced with a LA Part 2 sticky. I still think that this should be done, though I certainly agree with the Dr. that the existing topic had degenerated to a sorry state. Start a new LA Part 2 sticky with a clear warning about what will not be tolerated, and merge subsequent new LA topics that get posted into it. We've got to keep some sort of grip on both sides of the entire LA mania thing. (imho)

 

[Hillbilly]

Rating your worth through the number of posts is ridiculous. Having a post count that can be seen is an invitation to a d i c k measuring contest and a justification for bullies. As for the other bad behaviour, well being anonymous certainly allows people to act like a s s h o l e s. I really do miss the days of the weekly letters.

I cannot agree with you more:
1) I pity those who measure their own and others' worth in number of posts. How sad!
2) I miss the letters page too and have written to the Forum (under the "Introduce yourself" thread), but did not receive any feedback.
3) Being anonymous is certainly a problem. I'd love to use my real name here, but I will probably get hunted down and killed for it (see (1) above and my pitiful number of posts )

Cheers!

 

[BroDeal]

If a mod reads this - I suggested to Susan yesterday that the LA topic should be closed because it was simply too big at well over 100 pages. I suggested that it should simply be replaced with a LA Part 2 sticky. I still think that this should be done, though I certainly agree with the Dr. that the existing topic had degenerated to a sorry state. Start a new LA Part 2 sticky with a clear warning about what will not be tolerated, and merge subsequent new LA topics that get posted into it. We've got to keep some sort of grip on both sides of the entire LA mania thing. (imho)

Ah, so you are the culprit.

The length of a post like that does not matter. On CF we had a thread with more than 20,000 replies. No one is expected to read through such a thread. They exist just for people to converse with each other from day to day. Posts that fall more than a few pages off the current page probably never get read again.

It is better for the more vicious arguments to take place in that thread than in others because the Armstrong thread can be avoided by those who don't want to deal with that constant battle.

The "be nice" LA thread makes it obvious that the CN people don't really have a clue about the dynamic of the forum. As I said before, it is drive by moderation. If they don't want members arguing about Armstrong, which they well because he polarizing, in the Armstrong thread then where do they expect such arguments to take place. It looks to me like Amster is aiming to acheive his goal of censoring any discussion of Armstrong that is not to his liking.

If nothing about Armstrong doping should be mentioned in the thread then that should be defined to include ridiculous claims that he raced clean.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Actually I would assume that the original thread was closed down because there were some new comments posted that really unnecessary.

I would assume it was closed in haste but that CN quickly realized the repercussions of not having a separate LA thread so it was easier to start anew with some 'guidelines'.

 

[laura.weislo]

Ah, so you are the culprit.

(snip) It looks to me like Amster is aiming to acheive his goal of censoring any discussion of Armstrong that is not to his liking.

If nothing about Armstrong doping should be mentioned in the thread then that should be defined to include ridiculous claims that he raced clean.

We want to encourage a lively and spirited discussion of Armstrong's return pro and con, but I shut the previous thread down because members could not see fit to debate in a civil manner. When a thread degrades into name-calling, it's time to close it down.

Thanks.