Is it time to re-evaluate the effectiveness of 'old school' doping?

[TheBean]

Then you should know better than to refer to "lactic acid". (You should also realize that there's very little evidence that blood pH, per se, plays any role in fatigue, even during very high intensity exercise. That's why, e.g., sodium bicarbonate is an effective ergogenic aid only under certain conditions/when used in a chronic manner.)

Another poster mentioned lactic acid. I responded to that post, but have otherwise not mentioned lactic acid.

Carbonic acid concentrations in the blood seem like they would be the easiest targets

The Bohr effect is a physiological phenomenon first described Christian Bohr stating that hemoglobin's oxygen binding affinity is inversely related both to acidity and to the concentration of carbon dioxide. That is to say, a decrease in blood pH or an increase in blood CO2 concentration will result in hemoglobin proteins releasing their loads of oxygen and a decrease in carbon dioxide or increase in pH will result in hemoglobin picking up more oxygen. Since carbon dioxide reacts with water to form carbonic acid, an increase in CO2 results in a decrease in blood pH.

RBC's, therefore, are more effective at getting oxygen from the lungs to the muscles when blood pH is less acidic.

 

[TheBean]

Since there is a hematocrit cap that is easily testable and the goal of EPO and CERA are to maximize oxygen transport from the longs to the muscles, it makes sense that docs would be working to maximize the efficiency of a 50% hematocrit to carry oxygen.

There is application for a drug like this in the private sector. Patients with COPD, several types of anemia, or any typeof spastic paralysis would benefit.

Even if an alkalyzing med were not used prior to a stage, the possible benefits of using it as a post-stage recovery aid are posible.

Does anyone else have a theory as to what the docs MIGHT be up to?

 

[VP2013]

Does anyone else have a theory as to what the docs MIGHT be up to?

Yes, I do have an idea. I may be wrong and maybe nobody is trying this but history shows that when it comes to getting a competitive edge athletes will try anything that works.
What I am proposing is that some pros could be using tDCS (transcranial direct-current stimulation) to improve PPO (peak power output) by about 4%. It has been suggested for use in sports in a small number of papers and this is one example:

http://www.frontiersin.org/human_neuroscience/10.3389/fnhum.2013.00129/full

Now a study published in British Journal of Sports Medicine shows that tDCS does work for "trained" cyclists under lab conditions. I believe tDCS works by modulating the" Central Governor" for want of a better term. I am not sure what they mean by "trained" cyclists.

"The temporal and insular cortex (TC, IC) have been associated with autonomic nervous system (ANS) control and the awareness of emotional feelings from the body. Evidence shows that the ANS and rating of perceived exertion (RPE) regulate exercise performance. Non-invasive brain stimulation can modulate the cortical area directly beneath the electrode related to ANS and RPE, but it could also affect subcortical areas by connection within the cortico-cortical neural networks. This study evaluated the effects of transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS) over the TC on the ANS, RPE and performance during a maximal dynamic exercise. Methods Ten trained cyclists participated in this study (33±9 years; 171.5±5.8 cm; 72.8±9.5 kg; 10–11 training years). After 20-min of receiving either anodal tDCS applied over the left TC (T3) or sham stimulation, subjects completed a maximal incremental cycling exercise test. RPE, heart rate (HR) and R–R intervals (as a measure of ANS function) were recorded continuously throughout the tests. Peak power output (PPO) was recorded at the end of the tests. Results With anodal tDCS, PPO improved by ∼4% (anodal tDCS: 313.2±29.9 vs 301.0±19.8 watts: sham tDCS; p=0.043), parasympathetic vagal withdrawal was delayed (anodal tDCS: 147.5±53.3 vs 125.0±35.4 watts: sham tDCS; p=0.041) and HR was reduced at submaximal workloads. RPE also increased more slowly during exercise following anodal tDCS application, but maximal RPE and HR values were not affected by cortical stimulation. Conclusions The findings suggest that non-invasive brain stimulation over the TC modulates the ANS activity and the sensory perception of effort and exercise performance, indicating that the brain plays a crucial role in the exercise performance regulation."

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...rtion_and_performance_during_maximal_exercise

I know what you are thinking. Shock the brain! No way! In reality it appears to be safe if done correctly and certainly safer then any other doping protocol that I have ever heard of. If you have no idea what tDCS is these articles provide a simplified look at the science.
http://www.slate.com/articles/techn...in_stimulation_safe_and_effective.single.html
http://theweek.com/article/index/226196/how-electrical-brain-stimulation-can-change-the-way-we-think
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110413/full/472156a.html

I am not condoning this method of "doping". I'm not even sure if it is doping but I am pretty sure it is not ethical. You can make your own device for less then a $100 in parts from Radio Shack (the store, not the team) or buy an off the shelf device from the web. Btw it is easier to perform tDCS if your hair is very short like some cyclists in the peleton. Don't try this at home folks but if you do tell us if it works.

 

[TheBean]

tCDS makes for some interesting reading.

I only read the research article. From what I read, it seems tCDS would be more beneficial after a stage to stimulate parasympathetic pathways (i.e. improving rest).

Are you guessing they may thesein their helmets during the race? That's a bizarre thought, but then so was refregerated motorcycle panniers.

I use different forms of TENS, interferential current, and ultrasound in my office, but never to the dome. I don't think I will try it.

 

[VP2013]

tCDS makes for some interesting reading.

I only read the research article. From what I read, it seems tCDS would be more beneficial after a stage to stimulate parasympathetic pathways (i.e. improving rest).

Are you guessing they may thesein their helmets during the race? That's a bizarre thought, but then so was refregerated motorcycle panniers.

I use different forms of TENS, interferential current, and ultrasound in my office, but never to the dome. I don't think I will try it.

No need to place the electrodes in a helmet. The tDCS is administered before the race (as in the study). It could easily be done in the trailer or hotel room before the race. In previous studies the effects can last from days to months. Only this one study was done on athletes for performance effects and no followup test was published to see how long the effects last. My best guess would be at least a few days. Tdcs is truly undetectable by any means I can think of. At most the procedure may leave a small red spot on your head.

 

[VP2013]

Science of running take on "neuro-doping"

His take:

"The fact is that this science is still in it's infancy. While research has shown positive effects with various stimulation types on the treatment of depression and addiction, there is a lot to learn. The long term effects aren't known.

Davis goes on to take a reasoned approach to the doping question and the future of brain stimulation in sport, which is worth a read. Where I disagree with Davis though is his belief that using "neuroenhancement" during training isn't unethical.

There is no difference between neurodoping and taking EPO or testosterone in my opinion. It's taking the body artificially, where it can not go. But wait, you might say, you're just unlocking your bodies own natural power? I'd argue what you are doing is tricking or subverting the bodies natural regulatory mechanisms.

If we truly believe that fatigue is, to borrow a phrase from a Tim Noakes paper, "a brain-derived emotion that regulates the exercise behavior to ensure the protection of whole body homeostasis," then neurodoping has to be considered unethical and be banned.


In looking at the above chart, it is clear how large a role the brain plays in performance. There is no difference to me in stimulating an area of the brain that regulates affect, emotional arousal, motor control, or any other process, than trying to artificially stimulate Red blood cell production through injecting EPO.

While, at present it is not feasible to use neurodoping, and it's not clear whether performance is improved or what long term effects may be, my hope is that USADA, WADA, and whoever else is involved starts looking into this issue and designs a plan of attack for combating it."

I disagree with his comment "at present it is not feasible to use neurodoping".
It is way easier to do then taking EPO.

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2013/05/neuro-doping-intersection-of.html

 

[timbo25]

What about icebaths, for recovery?
like this

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/august/cooling-glove-research-082912.html

http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-08/video-cooling-glove-could-help-athletes-more-steroids-chilling-their-hands

 

[TheBean]

I think ice-baths are completely legal. Some of the riders wear ice-vests during warm-ups to help keep core body temp a bit lower.

The correlation between body temperature and oxygen binding efficiency is also interesting reading.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Another poster mentioned lactic acid. I responded to that post, but have otherwise not mentioned lactic acid.

Carbonic acid concentrations in the blood seem like they would be the easiest targets

The Bohr effect is a physiological phenomenon first described Christian Bohr stating that hemoglobin's oxygen binding affinity is inversely related both to acidity and to the concentration of carbon dioxide. That is to say, a decrease in blood pH or an increase in blood CO2 concentration will result in hemoglobin proteins releasing their loads of oxygen and a decrease in carbon dioxide or increase in pH will result in hemoglobin picking up more oxygen. Since carbon dioxide reacts with water to form carbonic acid, an increase in CO2 results in a decrease in blood pH.

RBC's, therefore, are more effective at getting oxygen from the lungs to the muscles when blood pH is less acidic.

This post gave me a little bit of a chubby.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

What about icebaths, for recovery?
like this

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/august/cooling-glove-research-082912.html

http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-08/video-cooling-glove-could-help-athletes-more-steroids-chilling-their-hands

A lot of research shows that while ice baths help you recover, they minimize performance gains after exercise. It helps recovery in a way that minimizes the stress to the body. This distinction is important because exercise is all about your body's adaptation to stress. With less stressful feedback, the less growth/adaptation you get. (also, icing in general doesn't do much to help connective tissues)

 

[TheBean]

Were hypobaric (sp?) chambers outlawed or legalized?

I put ice baths and the "a;titude tents" in the same category, that being changes made to the external environment. I hope the tents are legal, still. They make sense and pose no risks.

A post earlier posed the question of genetic doping. I don't know if and when the docs have meddled in the genes of humans. Spooky ****! Does anyone have a guess as to when the first "prototypes" will reach adulthood, if there are any?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

if it gets cleaner every year, will it ever be clean?

Zeno's paradox.

 

[Robert21]

If we truly believe that fatigue is, to borrow a phrase from a Tim Noakes paper, "a brain-derived emotion that regulates the exercise behavior to ensure the protection of whole body homeostasis," then neurodoping has to be considered unethical and be banned.

That paper is available here:

http://www.frontiersin.org/striated_muscle_physiology/10.3389/fphys.2012.00082/abstract

From the abstract:

...The past decade has witnessed the growing realization that this brainless model cannot explain exercise performance. This article traces the evolution of our modern understanding of how the CNS regulates exercise specifically to insure that each exercise bout terminates whilst homeostasis is retained in all bodily systems. The brain uses the symptoms of fatigue as key regulators to insure that the exercise is completed before harm develops. These sensations of fatigue are unique to each individual and are illusionary since their generation is largely independent of the real biological state of the athlete at the time they develop.

Doubtless the all-knowing Andy Coggin would dismiss this as "Utter nonsense" but it there does seem to be some good evidence supporting such a hypothesis.

Bottom line is that such a view of the nature of fatigues indicates that the effect of stimulants could indeed mean that the amphetamine-fuelled 'heroic feats' of the past were no more 'authentic' than those of the Epo era.

P.s. I mistakenly assumed earlier that Mr. Coggin does some coaching as well as writing about power meters. This does not seem to be the case.

 

[horsinabout]

Is this what Dr Steve Peters meant by "your inner chimp", perhaps he meant to say your "inner micro chip"

 

[blackcat]

Zeno's paradox.

Milch does a riff on this. youtube him. but heroin has caught up to him

 

[durianrider]

I don't know.

I'm just making the suggestion that there might be focussed phamaceutical doping at something other than anabolism of muscle and increased hematocrit.

Interstitial, intracellular, or blood pH are intersting to consider as possible targets of specific drugs.

Its well known that a high carb fruit based vegan diet alters blood ph into the positive aka more alkaline.

As does IV sodium bicarb which is pretty much used by most. Not banned and not tested for. Explosive bowel movements can happen so make sure you time it well.

 

[enCYCLOpedia]

As does IV sodium bicarb which is pretty much used by most. Not banned and not tested for. Explosive bowel movements can happen so make sure you time it well.

Of course it is banned, in the sense that it's in violation of anti-doping regulations. The fact that it may not be tested for makes it neither legal nor legitimate.

Please stop giving veganism a bad name at every possible opportunity

 

[TheBean]

Koates' (sp?) definition of fatigue is based on an emotion. Emotions are generated in the limbic system of the brain. Pain is also an emotion, though few realize that fact.

As a physiologist, we use different definitions for fatigue depending on the tissue being discussed. Ergo, a fatigued muscle cell is a cell that can no longer adequately contract with force (many variables in that definition).

A fatigued neoron needs to depolarize before it can transmit an impulse again.

A fatigued blod cell is one that has lived out its useful life and ned to be destroyed, then replaced by a fresh blood cell.

The list goes on.

So, depending on the function of the cell or tissue in question, fatigue generally means an inability to perfrom the function for which it exists.

People commonly think of beng tired and needing to go to bed as a state of fatigue, mental or otherwise.

For the sake of this discussion, it might be better to think of fatigue as an adjective rather than a noun.