Is Michele Ferrari recommending bloodtranfusions as treatment on his webpage???

[Alpechraxler]

So Wiggins can get a TUE for epo for being bipolar. That can explain a lot of incremental gains.

he lacks the manic charisma qualifing for a TUE

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That's a significiant deconstruction of the process.
...
Not disagreeing with your absolute logic, but I think you're out on a limb with that view.

Hard to accept someone disagreeig with you when they don't even
1. read the friggin OP
2. read your post.

wtf dude.

Seriously.

Are you saying that if you withdraw your own blood and get an increase in EPO you are going to be enhancing your performance?

Coz you aren't.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I think you guys are arguing at cross purposes here. EPO is performance enhancing if you inject it, it will raise your concentration of red blood cells beyond your normal level. Causing your own body to produce EPO by removing blood will only re-enhance performance back to the level that it was at before you removed the blood. Perhaps + or - a tiny margin. I think Ferrari is just trying to twist our shorts here, before he goes off to prison.

 

[ToreBear]

I don't think it's a good idea to take Ferrari seriously on anything other than using drugs to enhance your performance.

I get the impression he knows little about how to improve performance without using drugs. He's probably spent the last twenty years looking for ways to augment performance with drugs. Totally ignoring the field of how to do it without drugs.

He is a one trick pony. And his trick is getting old.

It's kinda like going to a gynecologist to treat a depression. It's doomed to failure, and you risk ending up having a sex change operation so that you become something he knows he can treat.

 

[peterst6906]

Hard to accept someone disagreeig with you when they don't even
1. read the friggin OP
2. read your post.

Wrong on both counts. Read HJ's response and whether or not EPO use is associated with blood transfusions, at a point either directly in the future or after re-infusion, a performance enhancement is expected and directly linked to the EPO use.

It's performance enhancing and a no amount of ridiculous pulling apart of the series of steps will change that.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Wrong on both counts. Read HJ's response and whether or not EPO use is associated with blood transfusions, at a point either directly in the future or after re-infusion, a performance enhancement is expected and directly linked to the EPO use.

It's performance enhancing and a no amount of ridiculous pulling apart of the series of steps will change that.

Ok, so based on the OP, let's get you to donate one bag of blood, then 10 days later, when your EPO hits its max, do a power test - any you like. Then, another 15 odd days later when all your Hgb is back, and your EPO is back to "normal", do another power test.

So 2 tests:
A. Max EPO > baseline, Hgb < baseline
B. Normal EPO = baseline, Hgb = baseline

And tell me which test is going to give better results. Surely A - when you have increased EPO? Not B when your EPO is diminished back to baseline again.

My statement is being made in the context of a thread where a Doctor says your EPO increases when you donate blood.

That is what we are discussing.

So what if your EPO increases - it's not performance enhancing. The effect will not enhance your performance.

 

[peterst6906]

My statement is being made in the context of a thread where a Doctor says your EPO increases when you donate blood.

No, you said this:

"EPO itself - I believe - is not performance enhancing at all."

Not performance enhancing at all. Rubbish, but keep believing what you like, you still cannot separate the end result from the first step.

If you were to draw up a list of banned substances for WADA, would you include EPO on that list?

Simple question.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

No, you said this:

"EPO itself - I believe - is not performance enhancing at all."

Not performance enhancing at all. Rubbish, but keep believing what you like, you still cannot separate the end result from the first step.

If you were to draw up a list of banned substances for WADA, would you include EPO as an erythropoiesis-stimulating agent on that list?

Simple question.

Of course.

Simple question: from the time you take EPO until the time you see a performance enhancement, how long is the delay?

ie if you took it 1 hour before a race, would you gain any performance enhancement?
2 hours?
4 hours?

How long?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Simple question: do you take EPO in isolation, or do you need to supplement with iron, B9 and B12?

If you are deficient in any of those 3 items, does EPO provide a guaranteed performance boost?

 

[peterst6906]

Of course.

Simple question: from the time you take EPO until the time you see a performance enhancement, how long is the delay?

ie if you took it 1 hour before a race, would you gain any performance enhancement?
2 hours?
4 hours?

How long?

I wouldn't take EPO as a pharmaceutical substance.

However, in general terms that is not a question that has a definite answer as there are many factors that affect the time between taking EPO and having an increased oxygen carrying capacity in the blood and there are also different degrees of advantage (ie. the enhancement isn't a digital response, it occurs over a period of time).

The time is however, longer than the 2 timeframes listed.

So if I understand your context further, you are suggesting it is OK to take EPO and race, as long and you don't race or train at some point in the future when you would be expected to gain a benefit? Or perhaps, it's OK to stimulate additional red blood cell production as long as you then manipulate the blood and reduce volume so no benefit is gained. Seems kind of a weird position to take.

Incidentally, why would you include EPO on a banned list?

 

[sashimono]

It would be funny if bloodletting turned out not to be quackery.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I wouldn't take EPO as a pharmaceutical substance.

I'll be sure to use the words "Hypothetically speaking" in the future so you understand the context of my questions. I won't be editing WADA's prohibited list either, in case you were serious a couple of posts ago.

However, in general terms that is not an answer that has a definite answer as there are many factors that affect the time between taking EPO and having an increased oxygen carrying capacity in the blood.

The time is however, longer than the 2 timeframes listed.

But I thought EPO was performance enhancing. Are you saying it isn't? That it is part of a process that actually takes time? And that just by taking EPO you are not enhancing performance directly, even though you are seeking to and would expect it to down the track?

So if I understand your context further, you are suggesting it is OK to take EPO and race, as long and you don't race at some point in the future when you would be expected to gain a benefit?

Wow there's a leap. Where do I say it is ok to take EPO?

All I said is: EPO itself is not performance enhancing. At all.

Incidentally, why would you include EPO on a banned list?

Because it can lead to performance enhancement.

Someone was suggesting above 65% Hct, more EPO actually lowers performance, due to increasing Hgb leading to increasing blood viscosity.

Apart from the fact that EPO causes heart attacks. Or rather. Excessive EPO leading to excessive Hgb leads to heart attacks.

We're arguing semantics. EPO is used to enhance performance, but its presence in your body is not the mechanism that enhances performance - it's the increase in Hgb that does the trick.

 

[Hugh Januss]

You guys are giving me such a headache.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You guys are giving me such a headache.

Just like EPO! er...

 

[Krebs cycle]

EPO triggers reticulocyte production in your bone marrow. An increase in EPO (via injection) leads to an increase in reticulocyte production. Reticulocytes themselves are not performance enhancing. After a while, reticulocytes mature into hemaglobin. An increase in hemaglobin is performance enhancing.

Wrong. A reticulocyte is an immature red blood cell. Hemoglobin is a protein which is a component of all red blood cells including reticulocytes. Reticulocytes therefore do not mature into hemoglobin, they mature into erythrocytes.

Congratulations on the rest of your comments which are technically correct. A basic schoolboy error yet again so not 100% today but at least you didn't fail completely.

 

[Baroh1488]

I was reading between the lines and for some odd reason tossed out my gallon of Orange Juice

That was my point. I read the article and started to feel uneasy. I wanted to hear other peoples opinion to find out if I was judging him too hard... apparantly you agree with me.

"[Bloodtransfusions] are not dangerous, it's the abuse that is. It's also dangerous to drink 10 liters of orange juice"

 

[ulrikmm]

That's a significiant deconstruction of the process.

Once you begin a chain of events by injecting rhEPO into the body, can that chain of events, which ultimately leads to performance enhancement, be broken or is there an expectation that injecting rhEPO will lead to a performance enhancement?

The whole purpose of injecting rhEPO is to produce an effect on the body and that certainly isn't expected to be a reduction or even a stasis in performance.

The whole process is a single event, involving a series of deterministic steps. The end result can't be separated from the beginning step.

So the flip side (and more common view) is that EPO is performance enhancing.

Not disagreeing with your absolute logic, but I think you're out on a limb with that view.

I think you dropped your chain very early in the stage. Come again, master of logic.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Wrong. A reticulocyte is an immature red blood cell. Hemoglobin is a protein which is a component of all red blood cells including reticulocytes. Reticulocytes therefore do not mature into hemoglobin, they mature into erythrocytes.

Thanks.

So of the three blood cell types: white blood cells (leukocytes), red blood cells (erythrocytes), and platelets (thrombocytes) - only the red blood cells contain Hgb yeah? Red due to the iron content which is what Hgb contains yeah?

So when you measure the Hgb in blood - it only measures the matured retics (RBCs or erythrocytes) yeah?

 

[Cloxxki]

Thanks.

So of the three blood cell types: white blood cells (leukocytes), red blood cells (erythrocytes), and platelets (thrombocytes) - only the red blood cells contain Hgb yeah? Red due to the iron content which is what Hgb contains yeah?

So when you measure the Hgb in blood - it only measures the matured retics (RBCs or erythrocytes) yeah?

I read that differently.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I read that differently.

Please explain?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It would be funny if bloodletting turned out not to be quackery.

Yes. The title is "Giving Blood Is Good For The Brain".

Failing the EPO test / doping test has been likened to failing an IQ test. What if he is suggesting that using blood transfusions increases your IQ - ie decreases your likelihood of being caught?

 

[doperhopper]

It's probably too late, but based on this quote of Dr. Lamborghini, one can imagine a nice backdated TUE for the mighty Uniballer (doesn't even need to play much to appear schizzy).

"Patients with neurological disorders such as schizophrenia, multiple sclerosis, premature births have shown significant improvements in cognitive and neurological disorders after treatment with rhEPO."

 

[Krebs cycle]

Thanks.

So of the three blood cell types: white blood cells (leukocytes), red blood cells (erythrocytes), and platelets (thrombocytes) - only the red blood cells contain Hgb yeah? Red due to the iron content which is what Hgb contains yeah?

So when you measure the Hgb in blood - it only measures the matured retics (RBCs or erythrocytes) yeah?

[Hb] is expressed as g/L or g/dL of whole blood, which means you are including the hgb contained within retics as well as erythrocytes in that value. But of course since retics are only 1-1.5% of the total red cell volume, the total amount of hgb located within retics is going to be very small relative to erythrocytes.

As you have already explained to others, taking blood out in order to stimulate EPO production is totally counterproductive to performance. VO2max will go down and it will take a good 2 weeks or so for the red cell volume to normalize (depending on how much blood was taken out).

 

[Dear Wiggo]

[Hb] is expressed as g/L or g/dL of whole blood, which means you are including the hgb contained within retics as well as erythrocytes in that value. But of course since retics are only 1-1.5% of the total red cell volume, the total amount of hgb located within retics is going to be very small relative to erythrocytes.

As you have already explained to others, taking blood out in order to stimulate EPO production is totally counterproductive to performance. VO2max will go down and it will take a good 2 weeks or so for the red cell volume to normalize (depending on how much blood was taken out).

Thanks again.

In the textbook(s) you use in lectures, do they cover diurnal variations of hematological parameters and also cover the effect on same parameters if, for example, taking a blood sample and then absent mindedly leaving it on the bench for the day?

How about the EPO response to hypoxia? I have seen figures quoted from 100-10,000 fold increases in EPO production depending on severity.

How severe is the hypoxic effect of 1 blood bag withdrawal?
How severe is the hypoxic effect of 2000m altitude?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I have a lot of questions, and if there was a book that had all the answers, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. But at a guess I would need to buy 5-6 and cannot justify the outlay.

Further, I have about 10-15 studies I'd like to read the full text on, but again, subscriptions are a PiTa and outside the scope of my disposable income.

Any suggestions?