Is Norway Doping?

[el chava]

That statement does not prove anything. The question in the original post is if Norway dope not if a bunch of random cyclists dope.

In the context of Norwegian cycling doping is highly unlikely. The culture in Norwegian sports, media and public is STRONGLY against doping. If they get caught the would be dead as athletes, marketing wise and I also think an event like TDF would be impossible to sell to tv-channels here.

I know there are a lot of doping cynics on this forums. But with regards to EBH and Thor all facts points to the fact that they are clean. There is even no circumstantial evidence to point to doping.

Well, an 80kg+ sprinter climbing the Aubisque almost on par with one of the world's best uphill is enough circumstantial evidence to me. Hanging out with Armstrong doesn't help either.

You are right about the Norwegian media being pretty naive and puritanical, though.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I like that this thread asks if Norway is doping, not if Norwegians, or even just the specific riders in question (how many riders on Plussbank-Cervélo, Joker-Merida or Sparebanken Vest do we assume are juicing?).

It gives me visions of a syringe the size of Jan Mayen being filled with EPO and then slammed into Stavanger or Kristiansand.

 

[hektoren]

http://www.greatestsportingnation.com/stats/global-cup-per-capita/2011
I rest my case.

 

[zapata]

I like that this thread asks if Norway is doping, not if Norwegians, or even just the specific riders in question (how many riders on Plussbank-Cervélo, Joker-Merida or Sparebanken Vest do we assume are juicing?).

It gives me visions of a syringe the size of Jan Mayen being filled with EPO and then slammed into Stavanger or Kristiansand.

He! That's pretty much what's going on with the oil. In that sense, Norway Is Doping. And regarding joker and sparebanken, are those guys considered pros? Cause if they're not, there's not even 14, but all of six norwegian pros in the peloton.




(Oh, and it's not the case that all norwegians are great descenders, either. Believe me.)

 

[zapata]

http://www.greatestsportingnation.com/stats/global-cup-per-capita/2011
I rest my case.

How? Because Norway is doing great per capita, everyone must be clean? I don't really understand you.

 

[usedtobefast]

4 stage wins for Norway this year. Steady progression or unbelievable performance? Is the peloton cleaner or is Norway doping?

everyone is doping in Norway. goodtimes.
"everybody must get stoned"

 

[Cloxxki]

Norwegians are geniouses at doping most likely. Make Ferrari look like a very loud burglar in a spy goodies store.
Sure, they are bad-*** and train smart. But the amount of wins they get, against super hardcore dopers, just makes you think.
I am a fan of NO XC skiers and biathletes, but I need to face it. Johan O. Koss set a 10km WR never again attained without clap skates. Med student and big time filantropist. Ring a bell?

80kg riders can climb just fine though, as long as they come with proportionate lungs and hearts. It's a bit weird when before he was happy to make the time limit, and now to join the heat.
It seems the amounts of dope people take at the TdF, relative to their previous years, it totally out of whack. The clean are finally doping, and the top dopers are shying out?

 

[maltiv]

Man, EBH really can't catch a break on this forum--although he sure can catch one in the Tour.

When EBH is injured or not winning everything in sight, he's the most 'overhyped' rider in the sport.

When EBH starts realizing his potential, it's proof that his entire country is engaged in systematic doping.

Indeed. EBH is the finest example of an excellent talent slowly developing into a star. He was a monster ever since he first sat on a bike and everyone who had raced against him or seen him race knew that he would become a great champion before he was even 18. In such a small cycling community as there is in Norway rumours spread quickly but there's never a bad word about EBH. There is nothing on him at all, he was even a zero on the uci list. This thread is just silly anyway and I can see that most people agree.

Oh, and concerning McEwens comment about "gravitydefyingviking", EBH is 4 kgs lighter than last year which puts him at 72-73, certainly not particularly heavy. 2 kgs lighter and he could be considered a climber...

 

[Mambo95]

Well, an 80kg+ sprinter climbing the Aubisque almost on par with one of the world's best uphill is enough circumstantial evidence to me.

By 'climbing the Aubisque almost on par with the world's best', you actually mean 'went over the summit two minutes behind Jeremy Roy having taken a head start at the bottom of the climb'

 

[Cobblestones]

Well I didn't explain it well then. In EBH and Thors cases it would be different. If you understood the culture in Norway regarding doping you would see what I meant by it.

I can give you an example. Pantani, a known doper and a hero in Italy. If he was a Norwegian he would be the biggest villain in sports,public and media. The same applies to other dopers who get caught and come back.
One of the reasons for this is that Norway is a frontrunner in anti-doping work, and those ethics is very much applied in Norwegian sports. This has taken years and years of work and is now in the culture.

Believe what you want, but all facts point in the direction that both Thor and Edvald is riding clean.

Norwegian Sportspeople in doping cases.

Doping does happen in Norway.

 

[Mambo95]

Norwegian Sportspeople in doping cases.

Doping does happen in Norway.

Murders happen in Ohio. It doesn't make you a murderer though.

 

[Ingenerius]

re career ending discussion. In my view absolutely true. Every doper in Norway have had their career ending and rep severely damaged the second they are caught, even though many wants to believe them. Exception the javelin thrower Trine Hattestad where the B-sample came back negative. This was in a time when knowledge about doping in the public was minimal and her likable personality also helped. If Hushovd was caught, biggest sports scandal in Norway ever. But such things doesn't stop people from doping.

Johan O. Koss was very very likely doped, but I think it is the exact opposite for EBH for reasons mentioned here. If he dopes cycling is more ****ed than anyone has ever imagined.

I know that people with access and credible cycling journalists in Norway are personally off the record 100% sure that Thor is and have always been clean. I think that is a pretty strong testimony. His fondness of LA is stupid, but he might be a bit stupid and a bit of a jerk.

I don't believe that norwegians de facto won't dope because I myself can see many scenarios where I could be tempted if I was an athlete

Also, I have no faith in Arvesen and am absolutely certain he has doped in his career. The success in this TDF and the success of Thor and EBH is clean I think.

 

[Kristian]

Norwegian Sportspeople in doping cases.

Doping does happen in Norway.

Well the two most famous cases there is Stian Grimseth, a weightlifter, who was acquitted and Bystøl who smoked cannabis. For a ski-jumper I reckon cannabis makes you fly longer.

As you can see from that list very very few Norwegians have been caught doping or been suspected doing so.

I don't understand why I have to defend them, why don't the people who accuse them of doping in this thread show some tiny bit of evidence?

Its quite easy, they cant. Because the fact of the matter is none of EBH and Thor are dopers.

 

[Cobblestones]

Murders happen in Ohio. It doesn't make you a murderer though.

The question wasn't 'Does Ohio murder?'

Anyway, Kristian, everybody here has read thousands of post of 'Australians don't dope', 'Americans don't dope', 'French don't dope', 'Canadians don't dope', 'Brits don't dope', 'Germans don't dope'. The amazing thing is that:
(i) posters always claim that only their own countrymen would never dope
(ii) when you look at it, the claim is never true
(iii) there's no such reservation about doping in other countries

So to hear a Norwegian claim that Norwegians are guaranteed clean because of the culture of fairness etc...

Dude, everyone in the clinic has heard that about just about every other country before. It's just wrong. There are bad apples everywhere. It took me 5 seconds to get the Wiki link.

Hushovd and Boasson Hagen might be clean or not, I don't know. What I do know is that if they're clean, it's not because of a general Norwegian trait. It's because they've made an individual, conscious decision to not cheat.

ETA: and Hattestad was acquitted, wasn't she?

 

[Mambo95]

The question wasn't 'Does Ohio murder?'

Fair enough. But just going by nationality is ridiculous. This thread is ridiculous. It's classic clinic material.

The real question is: Is Sweden merely part of Norway transfused during the Dauphine? Or is Finland Norway's blood bag?

Whatever you do, don't point out that riders with skiing experience descend well, because that's not to do with drugs and therefore stupid.

 

[HL2037]

Except, at course, that Nordic skiing and Alpine skiing are very different disciplines, of course, with Alpine being predicated almost entirely on going downhill, and Nordic being more varied.

I just realize that you are probably Norwegian Ok, you are the expert

 

[Kristian]

Fair dues to you Cobblestones, a rational post with a lot of good points.

I certainly agree with some of them. I am not that naive, I know some Norwegians probably dope and in the past there has been some suspicious cases.

One good point you raise is that doping is an individual choice. I agree with this. But I also think culture and ethics plays a role. If you are in certain culture or environment that think doping is ok, its a much bigger chance you will dope. The same applies to environments who is strongly against doping, you are not that likely to dope.

One point that I personally think is forgotten in the debates on doping is the background people come from. In Norway we have good living conditions for most people and good opportunities to choose what we want to do in life. If you are from a poor country and don't have many choices in life doping and gaining better results in sports can be a lifesaver for a whole family.

You also have to take into consideration what a society in a certain country tolerates when it comes to doping, does it equate to cheating or is it an acceptable way to gain results? There are certainly cultural differences here.

 

[the delgados]

Kristian:

Thor Hushovd grew up in an environment and culture (professional racing) that thought (thinks?) doping was okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but by your reasoning, he's doped to kingdom come.

 

[el chava]

One point that I personally think is forgotten in the debates on doping is the background people come from. In Norway we have good living conditions for most people and good opportunities to choose what we want to do in life. If you are from a poor country and don't have many choices in life doping and gaining better results in sports can be a lifesaver for a whole family.

Good for him that he lives in Monaco, then.

 

[greenedge]

I think they are both in good teams and have always been or will be good riders. They do have strict anti-doping policies on both teams as well.

Hats off to Thor and EBH

 

[OneRaceWonder]

Thor Hushovd grew up in an environment and culture (professional racing) that thought (thinks?) doping was okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but by your reasoning, he's doped to kingdom come.

This is why I'm also a bit more sceptical of Hushovd as well. Particularly because of his friendship with the former cyclist who shall not be named.

Someone here also mentioned Koss. I'm really sad he didn't get caught. Med. student/doctor; suddenly dissapears before '94 olympics, just to come back and crush a few world records. PoS.

So yes, there are dopers from Norway. EBH is not one of them, and I don't think Hushovd is either (anymore???).

 

[Cloxxki]

Hushovd, contrary to his buddy ex-cyclist, could be a bad responder to doping. If doping is much less (being, less they dare do, in terms of % performance increase), he gets closer to the front, also in the moutnains. Similar to a non-doper finally riding amongst other non-dopers.

Would be good to see H's top speeds and climbing times over the years.

 

[Swabian Lass]

Hushovd and EBH are two of the cyclists I think are less likely than many to be doping, however, I couldn't say I'm 100% sure about anyone.

Trouble is I think that pro cyclists live in a bit of a a world of their own when it comes to doping. I'm not sure how much national culture influences them really, I think that team and peer culture is much more important.

 

[Swabian Lass]

Norway, no. But those Icelanders....have you ever had the Hakarl?

Yeah, I've had Hákarl. Didn't help my cycling though. It's a bit difficult to accelerate uphill when you're vomiting.