Is Philippe Gilbert Doping?

[roundabout]

This year he rode 198km in 4h 54' 57"

Last year it was 201km in 4h 29' 35"

Last year was mega-doped

Now you're just being stupid for the sake of being stupid.

 

[Winterfold]

This year he rode 198km in 4h 54' 57"

Last year it was 201km in 4h 29' 35"

Last year was mega-doped

So this year they kept the avg speed down hence more energy for a power climb at the end, seems like a clever tactic to me...

Thanks for that data luckyboy I can still believe

 

[luckyboy]

Now you're just being stupid for the sake of being stupid.

To be fair it was Evans with his Phonak team and dodgy Italian mates.

 

[hfer07]

I'm going to expose the pros & cons of todays race to see if we are able to make sense of what took place today:

PROS:

* Course length: Unlike the other Ardennes classics- this one is the shortest one of them-40 to 50km less
* Tactics: Today, Saxo Bank & Trek-Leopard did the majority of the effort, trying to catch the breakaway & the last two escapades, while PG & Pharma Lotto sat behind their wheels until the last km. Energy savings were a factor.
* Hesitation: when PG was on the front with 250 mts to go, it looks to me that J-Rod & Co just hoped to get closer to the finish to launch the attack, while Gilbert just went full power all the way to the finish-perhaps careless if he was going to blow at the last meters- but somehow he managed to outrun them with a sort of "lengthy sprint"

CONS:

* The fact that he just "ridiculed" J-Rod-a well know climber who excels in very steep gradients, and furthermore, the world's Top Climbers..........
* The video recaps show a gap of almost a 80 mts before he slowed down to cross the line---the power he had to generate in order to outrun the likes of Purito & the rest of the competition must have been out of this world.....
* Cycling History has showed us that a rider just simply cannot convert oneself a different rider overnight-in this case Gilbert has just transformed himself in a "specialist" of the Steep Hills. he might have improved his Power- to-weight-ratio, but is just absurd to believe he can drag his body uphill in such fashion capable to match and pass riders much lighter & agile than him....




you decide.....

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You are right, being able to ride as fast as any time done in 2009 and 2010 is an indication of nothing.

And of course you ignored the part about disclaimers applying.

You're right - when you write "usual disclaimers apply" without mentioning what they are, I'll ignore them.

BTW - Gilbert was a full 48 seconds down on the winner in 2009 - did he start doping in 2010 and then double that dose for today, or how does it work?

 

[roundabout]

To be fair it was Evans with his Phonak team and dodgy Italian mates.

Evans with his Phonak team and dodgy Italian mates wasn't by any means more impressive than your "clean" avatar.

 

[Winterfold]

The title "no way is Gilbert clean" is a deliberate copy of the following thread and title. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=10687#post363532


So I say, that people should either accuse them both of cheating or neither.

Indeed. Both riders performances in one day races are equally plausible or implausible.

I will go with the possibility that they could be clean and are both outliers in terms of their respective physical ability - and are both canny riders.

It's just this year Phil is being more intelligent and has a better team

 

[roundabout]

You're right - when you write "usual disclaimers apply" without mentioning what they are, I'll ignore them.

BTW - Gilbert was a full 48 seconds down on the winner in 2009 - did he start doping in 2010 and then double that dose for today, or how does it work?

I didn't mention what they are because everyone is free to come up with any factors that might explain the difference and we can discuss why they may or may not apply in this particular instance.

But ignoring them in you're usual pedantic way is a lot less productive.

As for the difference between 2009 and 2010 you're free to believe what you want.

 

[Mambo95]

2. His much heralded natural ability has come into sharper focus at the same time as the biological passport taking effect (as he declares in a recent magazine interview)

This option is impossible. Everyone dopes. And all doping works exceptionally well. This is a stupid theory.

Now many cycling observers, including professional journalists and others who have been outspoken about doping have pointed to resolutely clean riders doing well as a positive sign.

But don't believe them. Anyone who entertains this thought risks losing the smug self-satisfaction of knowing everyone dopes and their superiority over the naive 'fanboys'.

So stop thinking this nonsense and get back to hating the sport.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I didn't mention what they are because everyone is free to come up with any factors that might explain the difference and we can discuss why they may or may not apply in this particular instance.

But ignoring them in you're usual pedantic way is a lot less productive.

As for the difference between 2009 and 2010 you're free to believe what you want.

Actually - you are the one who applied the two figures and then ignored your own "usual disclaimers".
I didn't ignore it, I actually looked at it and then dismissed it. Its not my fault your analysis was flawed.

 

[roundabout]

Actually - you are the one who applied the two figures and then ignored your own "usual disclaimers".
I didn't ignore it, I actually looked at it and then dismissed it. Its not my fault your analysis was flawed.

Let's set the record straight, where have i ignored my usual disclaimers by saying that this is a definitive proof of Gilbert doping?

Secondly, you "dismissed" it based on an argument that i showed to be not conclusive.

Third, i have never said that my analysis or interpretation of them is perfect and doesn't leave any room for other conclusions.

However I do contend that this was a very impressive performance by Gilbert which is underscored by the time it took for him to do the final km (and especially the section between 400 and 40 meters to go).

 

[luckyboy]

Evans with his Phonak team and dodgy Italian mates wasn't by any means more impressive than your "clean" avatar.

heh ........

Anyway, I doubt that he is clean nowadays. It would be nice if he was, but there's no way to prove that.

 

[forty four]

it was a few years back and wont register on a google english language search.

Bjorn said the doctor gave him the testo. And the doc was an Italian Evans had specifically requested. Nice to throw to others under the bus with you, but this is cycling.

that would be TWO others under the bus....

 

[Winterfold]

The title "no way is Gilbert clean" is a deliberate copy of the following thread and title. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=10687#post363532


So I say, that people should either accuse them both of cheating or neither.

Indeed. Both riders performances in one day races are equally plausible or implausible.

I will go with the possibility that they could be clean and are both outliers in terms of their respective physical ability - and are both canny riders.

It's just this year Phil is being more intelligent and has a better team

 

[forty four]

I'm going to expose the pros & cons of todays race to see if we are able to make sense of what took place today:

PROS:

* Course length: Unlike the other Ardennes classics- this one is the shortest one of them-40 to 50km less
* Tactics: Today, Saxo Bank & Trek-Leopard did the majority of the effort, trying to catch the breakaway & the last two escapades, while PG & Pharma Lotto sat behind their wheels until the last km. Energy savings were a factor.
* Hesitation: when PG was on the front with 250 mts to go, it looks to me that J-Rod & Co just hoped to get closer to the finish to launch the attack, while Gilbert just went full power all the way to the finish-perhaps careless if he was going to blow at the last meters- but somehow he managed to outrun them with a sort of "lengthy sprint"

CONS:

* The fact that he just "ridiculed" J-Rod-a well know climber who excels in very steep gradients, and furthermore, the world's Top Climbers..........
* The video recaps show a gap of almost a 80 mts before he slowed down to cross the line---the power he had to generate in order to outrun the likes of Purito & the rest of the competition must have been out of this world.....
* Cycling History has showed us that a rider just simply cannot convert oneself a different rider overnight-in this case Gilbert has just transformed himself in a "specialist" of the Steep Hills. he might have improved his Power- to-weight-ratio, but is just absurd to believe he can drag his body uphill in such fashion capable to match and pass riders much lighter & agile than him....




you decide.....

wrong were talking short hills all power long sprints. useless to a true uphill specialist.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Let's set the record straight, where have i ignored my usual disclaimers by saying that this is a definitive proof of Gilbert doping?

Secondly, you "dismissed" it based on an argument that i showed to be not conclusive.

Third, i have never said that my analysis or interpretation of them is perfect and doesn't leave any room for other conclusions.

However I do contend that this was a very impressive performance by Gilbert which is underscored by the time it took for him to do the final km (and especially the section between 400 and 40 meters to go).

As I said, your analysis was flawed.
By all means set the record straight - were your figures for Gilbert to show that he was doping or not?

 

[Escarabajo]

This is just idiotic. Did you even look at Wikipedia or CQ before posting this crap?

No I didn't. My mistake. TBH I don't know how to evaluate this type of powerful type riders. He has shown to be good in the past but not sure how much is too good.

As for your response to me I expected a lot better from you. Honestly your posts are usually informative so you could have at least made the argument with some info (being nice). Maybe I touched a nerve with this rider, so be careful you could be disenchanted in the future.

 

[Escarabajo]

I can tell you first hand that it's certainly possible to put out your maximum 3 to 5 minute power at the end of a hard race, and do it clean. I have no doubt that boosting your fitness through artificial means can help you with a short, intense effort at the end of a race, but being able to do go hard at the end of a race is hardly proof of doping.

That's what I meant and I fully agree with you. Short steep climbs can be done and won by clean riders. We just don't know if there was any doping aid that helped him get to that point fresher.

You're kidding, right? I mean, it's fair to question the performance on anyone who's getting results at this level. Sadly, that's the reality of pro cycling. But to suggest Gilbert hasn't "shown himself earlier"? Are you kidding?? I mean, what is the standard here, and what is the accepted progression?

I already taken some insults about this. I repeat myself is was my mistake. I did not check wiki before I posted this, but I was just writing based on what The Hitch had written, so I trusted his reasearch before I wrote my post.

In my defense I am Colombian and had not followed Gilbert performances very closely so I did not know him very well until very early last year. I am starting to follow more classics and more races than ever now that my Colombian riders are participating more and more. Internet broadcasting has gotten better too. So I didn't know him before last year off the top of my head.

I guess I'll be prepare to attack the forumites that don't know Henao when he starts winning in a couple of years. .

 

[hfer07]

wrong were talking short hills all power long sprints. useless to a true uphill specialist.

I know- I just couldn't find a better way to describe that absurd attack
If you look at the video when Gilbert was on the front and looked back to see who was behind his wheel, he just took off with such power that it can only be compared when someone is sprinting- and yes- sprinting on a 15 % gradient whit that speed is what is driving me crazy to believe

 

[La Pandera]

that's quick. lol

no he isnt clean. however he earned my respect. a champion.

still not at canc's level

but a great win hitch. if he isnt using cera and sh+t like that, i dont care.

You certainly changed your tune quick about Gilbert and his not being a champion. If he wins the triple does that make him a cycling god in your book?

 

[jimmypop]

Time out: Who can we primarily thank for turning the sport into such a dope-infested s**tshow that we have to devote hundreds of pages of detailed debate over whether or not a single rider is doping based on less than a handful of performances?

 

[luckyboy]

No I didn't. My mistake. TBH I don't know how to evaluate this type of powerful type riders. He has shown to be good in the past but not sure how much is too good.

As for your response to me I expected a lot better from you. Honestly your posts are usually informative so you could have at least made the argument with some info (being nice). Maybe I touched a nerve with this rider, so be careful you could be disenchanted in the future.

Yeah sorry about that. It's just that while I accept he probably is on something, he's not like some of these guys that suddenly produce great results and the association that brings got on my nerves a bit.

He's only done really well in Ardennes week since he joined Lotto. Think he got a few top 15-20s at Liege + Fleche. Came close to winning Brabantse Pijl the year before he joined Lotto.

Also with FDJ won quite a few races around February time - Het Volk x2 (including a 50km solo), Haut Var + some hilly Spanish races. None of them have hills of this calibre, but still. Got 3rd in MSR 08 the first year of Le Manie, I think.

Anyway he has definitely moved up a gear in the Ardennes at Lotto. Maybe the training is improved (people have said their training is/was behind the times compared to other teams - IIRC Sylvain Chavanel) and he is in his peak years now.

That's feels like grasping at straws though, and probably is.

 

[Willy_Voet]

If he wins the triple does that make him a cycling god in your book?

No...just the next Rebellin

 

[auscyclefan94]

It is really sad that whenever someone puts in a great peformance that thread needs to be made...(awaiting comments about rabo thread)

 

[JeffreyPerry]

This is terrible

The minute I saw Gilbert won, I just knew.... I knew that this thread would be started and accusations would fly. I would like to see ANY hard evidence of him doping. It is absolutely hilarious that the first thoughts of a person when the win a race is "he's gotta be doped to the gills!!!" I could understand if Ricco or Diluca was performing like this. But this is a guy that has never even been mentioned in any investigation. It's pretty sad this many people actually would make this assumption. It almost makes me never want to come in the clinic again....
almost...its too dang funny to not visit just to see the stuff flung in here...