Is Philippe Gilbert Doping?

[Digger]

Firstly Gilbert's goal for the season are this week....most of the main guys he beat today are GT riders. If PG was going up a mountain like that, then that's legitimate questioning. He's at his peak for the year now. Schlecks, Contador et al, definitely not.
Also there has been nothing sudden about his career graph. He is in his peak...he can't TT, sprint, or mountain climb with the best...but this finish is his thing.

Two weeks ago, on his return from a modest performance in the week-long Dauphine Libere — the traditional pre-Tour warm-up race — Gilbert received a phone call from a Belgian journalist, Philippe Van Holle, inquiring about his ambitions for the Tour.

“Will you be travelling to the start in Fromentine in hope or expectation?” asked Van Holle.

“With hope, certainly,” the rider replied, “but I also know, given the appetiser I’ve just had at the Dauphine, that I’m going to really suffer as well. Mentally, I’m preparing myself for a very hard time. I’ll just do what I can, when I can.”

“But at least now you have an idea of the gap separating you from the summit and the work you need to do to compete against the best?” Van Halle suggested.

“I can tell you now,” Gilbert said, “that I will never reach the level I saw at the Dauphine. It doesn’t matter how hard I train; I’m never going to get there. I understand now that I am never going to win the Tour de France — maybe I will shine for a day or two, but that’s it.”
Surprised at his response, the journalist asked whether Gilbert was implying what he thought he was implying — that the cancer of doping was still prevalent in the sport. Gilbert affirmed that he was. So perhaps you will forgive us for cheering his courage this morning or for dwelling too long on the dullness of the weather. It reflects the general lassitude.

For me these are not the words of a doper.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/forum/thread/266342/paul-kimmage-on-philippe-gilbert

 

[Arnout]

Look, if you don't like such threads, stay out of the clinic, people here are free to discuss whether any rider dopes, not just those riders that people don't like. If you do not agree with the opinion that he dopes, provide arguments for your position, or adress the arguments put forth by those that say he does use doping.

Is that true? Because this thread was not started with a question, but with a statement. There is not any proof or hint of proof (as the McQuaid story seems to be false), other than the fact that other cyclists doped in the past.

There is freedom of speech, but there is also defamation. Without the slightest evidence, I think we are close to the second one here...

 

[Escarabajo]

End this tread

Because???

 

[The Hitch]

Is that true? Because this thread was not started with a question, but with a statement. There is not any proof or hint of proof (as the McQuaid story seems to be false), other than the fact that other cyclists doped in the past.

There is freedom of speech, but there is also defamation. Without the slightest evidence, I think we are close to the second one here...

I didnt see you complaining in the "There is no way Cancellara is clean" thread

Nor in the various threads accusing Roessler and Kwiatkowski (who together wouldnt create half the rider that Gilbert is) of being 100% dopers because they did good in a tt

 

[hrotha]

Firstly Gilbert's goal for the season are this week....most of the main guys he beat today are GT riders. If PG was going up a mountain like that, then that's legitimate questioning. He's at his peak for the year now. Schlecks, Contador et al, definitely not.
Also there has been nothing sudden about his career graph. He is in his peak...he can't TT, sprint, or mountain climb with the best...but this finish is his thing.



For me these are not the words of a doper.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/forum/thread/266342/paul-kimmage-on-philippe-gilbert

And few people are suggesting he doped in 2005.

 

[DirtyWorks]

The performances that I see as suspicious are the super-human feats of prolonged effort, like flying up a 10% slope for kilometre after kilometre without slowing, or ITTing the last 50km of a major cobbled classic without anyone coming close to you. I don't see Gilbert doing any of these things. He has one strength, he plays to it, and he wins with it. It's not impossible that he is doped up to the gills, but I think we'd be seeing MUCH more impressive riding from him if he was.

+1

It's too hard to know with one-day races. The biggest clues come in the grand tours. If Gilbert becomes a Grand Tour king this year doing it as described above, then I think that would be a better clue he's doping.

 

[Arnout]

I didnt see you complaining in the "There is no way Cancellara is clean" thread

Nor in the various threads accusing Roessler and Kwiatkowski (who together wouldnt create half the rider that Gilbert is) of being 100% dopers because they did good in a tt

Don't have time for that. But go and look at my post history of last 2 years, I've always been arguing in the clinic with the guys who believe everyone/this particular guy dopes based on performance only.

 

[The Hitch]

Don't have time for that. But go and look at my post history of last 2 years, I've always been arguing in the clinic with the guys who believe everyone/this particular guy dopes based on performance only.

My point is less towards you and more towards everyone acting as if theyve never read the clinic.

Suggesting people might be doping without a positive test. Its been done before. Lots.

And you know why? Its because in the current climate of doping in the peloton, its easy to to avoid positive tests, and based on things landis and others have said, many people are doing it.

So while the whole world of cycling touts Gilbert, Schleck every Australian rider etc as the paragons of clean cycing, just like before they said the same of VIno, Lance, Basso, Valverde, Contador, i dont see the problem with a second far quiter voice saying - now wait just a minute.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

+1

It's too hard to know with one-day races. The biggest clues come in the grand tours. If Gilbert becomes a Grand Tour king this year doing it as described above, then I think that would be a better clue he's doping.

Being rep'ed by a McQuaid will certainly assist him. The scope and scale of the assistance is not known though.

Careful - Mambo95's post earlier says that PG is not represented by McQuaid.

Now let's not bring facts into this. That's cheating.


(Gilbert's agent is a Belgian called Eddy Billen)

And here is an article from Velonation confirming it:

"Philip is able to sign a two-year extension with the team, until December 31, 2012", said his agent Eddie Billen yesterday, according to DH.be.

(Thanks Mambo!)

 

[Epicycle]

Someone should ask Gilbert about Freddy Viane.

It's a good question. I believe Freddy was only with Lotto for one year but he was brought in at Gilbert's request. I admit, though, that I've been swayed by Gilbert's statements in the past, especially one he made (to Kimmage?) about despairing at not being able to ever with the Tour because of other riders doping. But he also won Het Volk with some overpowering moves, in 2008 he went from 50km out and won solo. I don't necessarily believe anybody is clean but at the same time maybe the biopassport is evening things out. Something is definitely weird with Contador.

 

[skippy]

So Gilbert wins today and there is a new thread !

Going to cook my dinner here in Riva after posting my blog on today at the Trentino and when i come back i expect to see why "Voeckler is not clean " in the clinic !

Don't dissappoint me !

 

[la.margna]

So, "not one single guy of the Top 25 in a GT or Classique has ever been clean" - you mean they have been doping since birth? So the 26th guy is clean - WADA/UCI should just sanction the top 25 of all races and do away with testing, as this is easier, cheaper and quicker.

c'mon maserati that's ridicolous...

1) english is not my mother tongue. so obviously maybe before they started competitive cycling, some of these riders had a few clean years, but that's not what I meant. the top 25 have never been clean not the riders who are in the top 25 in a given year for their entire life.

2) did i write somewhere that #26 is clean? no. so why do you change my words and statement? it is highly likely that even the top 50 is not clean, but there are always a few guys who make it clean in there, so maybe #29 and #37 and #41 are clean, who knows.

my statement should just be seen as this:
how ridicolous it is to always blame any strong rider and winner as doper as it is obvious for anybody with a brain and knowledge about methods, programs, techniques and their impact that you have to be an extraterrestial to win clean. these discussions are such a waste of time and i will not participate anymore. i love cycling and hate that this is the sad state of this (and many other) sport.

 

[blackcat]

Someone should ask Gilbert about Freddy Viane. Regardless of the underlying motivation, this is an absolutely legitimate thread which doesn't need other posters to play moderator.

ofcourse, he only wanted Viane cos he has the best massage oils.

For those that dont know, Freddy was on USPS, the hostess with the mostess, no one knew his way around a hypodermic like good ol Freddy. Floyd took Freddy to Phonak, so it is not without substance that Floyd was left with substance, cos Freddy misdosed the test cream or patches and failed to allay it with enuff epitestosterone.

Freddy was persona non grata post Phonak. Then Lefevre picks him up for QS. I never knew he went across to Lotto. But this is a compelling indictment imo if Gilbert specifically requested him. Cos perceptions are important, at the very least. Like Evans requesting an Italo dr who fed Bjorn Leukemans his testo.

http://www.sports-cross.com/Muscle Care.htm

 

[Arnout]

My point is less towards you and more towards everyone acting as if theyve never read the clinic.

Suggesting people might be doping without a positive test. Its been done before. Lots.

And you know why? Its because in the current climate of doping in the peloton, its easy to to avoid positive tests, and based on things landis and others have said, many people are doing it.

So while the whole world of cycling touts Gilbert, Schleck every Australian rider etc as the paragons of clean cycing, just like before they said the same of VIno, Lance, Basso, Valverde, Contador, i dont see the problem with a second far quiter voice saying - now wait just a minute.

I can happily understand your doubts. I have my doubts too (although I don't really care about doping). But the old paradigm, innocent until proven... is quite important for me too in real life. For me, its the same with cyclists.

Many apparently doping cyclists turned out to be clean, but will have a damaged image for the rest of their career. Others will dope 15 years without anyone noticing. In my opinion you can't say that much about someone doping (although in recent years the sudden performers got picked out quite systematically), so I won't and now and then I pop in here to urge the clinic to reconsider as well, because peeps may not deserve the label put on them.

 

[Ingenerius]

Gilbert has been in very good form all the way since San Remo now which is a long time, but I can't decide if that speaks for or against him doping...?

I will wait to LBL to decide, since Amstel and Fleche is one thing for a super punchy guy like Gilbert to win, but LBL when you're not really a good mountain climber.... Especially when AS looks as strong as he does this week, almost in good old Bjarne Riis form

But Gilbert sure isn't a clear cut case like e.g Cancellara is. Yet.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

c'mon maserati that's ridicolous...

1) english is not my mother tongue. so obviously maybe before they started competitive cycling, some of these riders had a few clean years, but that's not what I meant. the top 25 have never been clean not the riders who are in the top 25 in a given year for their entire life.

2) did i write somewhere that #26 is clean? no. so why do you change my words and statement? it is highly likely that even the top 50 is not clean, but there are always a few guys who make it clean in there, so maybe #29 and #37 and #41 are clean, who knows.

my statement should just be seen as this:
how ridicolous it is to always blame any strong rider and winner as doper as it is obvious for anybody with a brain and knowledge about methods, programs, techniques and their impact that you have to be an extraterrestial to win clean. these discussions are such a waste of time and i will not participate anymore. i love cycling and hate that this is the sad state of this (and many other) sport.

Ok, but thats my point - looking at performance for a one day race is ridiculous - and so is putting arbitrary number on it.

I didn't change your words or statements, in fact I quoted them - I didn't know English was not your first language but I believe your statement was still clear.
I have no idea about Gilbert but I certainly do not agree with your conclusion "that you have to be an extraterrestial to win clean".

 

[superconfex]

Because???

Because my learned friend the OP, who by the way I enjoy his posts has made a sweeping statement “no way is Gilbert clean”.
Until he tells the forum that he personally saw/gave PG PEDS…I’ll wait until the media or people running the sport tell me otherwise before I comment.
All I see is a talented rider peaking for events where he has a chance of winning.
He has done nothing out of the ordinary, just winning or placing in races he should be.
Are we to question everyone who wins a race a doper? If so as someone has mentioned lets have a “No way insert name Clean” thread and you can all discuss it to your hearts content
Maybe “Is Gilbert clean?” would've a better title.

 

[hrotha]

Like Evans requesting an Italo dr who fed Bjorn Leukemans his testo.

But I thought Leukemans' positive was due to his having so much sex and being too macho!

Seriously though, do you have a link? I'd like to learn more about that.

Because my learned friend the OP, who by the way I enjoy his posts has made a sweeping statement “no way is Gilbert clean”.

The title is a deliberate echo of the Cancellara thread.

 

[The Hitch]

Because my learned friend the OP, who by the way I enjoy his posts has made a sweeping statement “no way is Gilbert clean”.

The title "no way is Gilbert clean" is a deliberate copy of the following thread and title. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=10687#post363532

I would have just called it "Gilbert doping thread" as i want it to be a place where people voice their opinions regarding whether or not he is clean but I wanted to make a direct link between him and Canc.

Because canc is in the same position. He hasnt been caught, but people believe he cheats because hes so good.

So I say, that people should either accuse them both of cheating or neither.

 

[blackcat]

But I thought Leukemans' positive was due to his having so much sex and being too macho!

Seriously though, do you have a link? I'd like to learn more about that.

it was a few years back and wont register on a google english language search.

Bjorn said the doctor gave him the testo. And the doc was an Italian Evans had specifically requested. Nice to throw to others under the bus with you, but this is cycling.

 

[L'arriviste]

it was a few years back and wont register on a google english language search.

Bjorn said the doctor gave him the testo. And the doc was an Italian Evans had specifically requested. Nice to throw to others under the bus with you, but this is cycling.

Not quite right. The doctor was Belgian: Sam Vermeire.

[ Source (FR), Source (NL) ]

 

[hrotha]

it was a few years back and wont register on a google english language search.

Bjorn said the doctor gave him the testo. And the doc was an Italian Evans had specifically requested. Nice to throw to others under the bus with you, but this is cycling.

Do you at least know the name of the Italian doctor? This is news to me because I thought Leukemans never admitted to anything.

edit: checking L'arriviste's link, there's this:

Depuis, Björn Leukemans n'a cessé de clamer son innocence. Il accuse Sam Vermeire, le médecin de Predictor, de lui avoir administré un mauvais produit.

edit2: according to this, the story's very different.

Björn Leukemans said that his positive control for testosterone may have been caused by a conspiracy by two team doctors against a third doctor.

Leukemans said that he found the circumstances of his positive test suspicious, even suggesting that he was "sacrificed" because of jealousies amongst the team doctors. According to him, team captain Cadel Evans wanted doctor Sam Vermeire, who prescribed Leukemans the product," to work at the Tour de France. "That did not please the other two doctors."

 

[superconfex]

The title "no way is Gilbert clean" is a deliberate copy of the following thread and title. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=10687#post363532

I would have just called it "Gilbert doping thread" as i want it to be a place where people voice their opinions regarding whether or not he is clean but I wanted to make a direct link between him and Canc.

Because canc is in the same position. He hasnt been caught, but people believe he cheats because hes so good.

So I say, that people should either accuse them both of cheating or neither.

But correct me if i'm wrong Hitch but wasn't it world known that the powers that be and the media questioned his performance of way of his bike being doped?
That how i understand 40 odd pages of "Nothing to see here, move along"

 

[Altitude]

Firstly Gilbert's goal for the season are this week....most of the main guys he beat today are GT riders. If PG was going up a mountain like that, then that's legitimate questioning. He's at his peak for the year now. Schlecks, Contador et al, definitely not.
Also there has been nothing sudden about his career graph. He is in his peak...he can't TT, sprint, or mountain climb with the best...but this finish is his thing.



For me these are not the words of a doper.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/forum/thread/266342/paul-kimmage-on-philippe-gilbert

“I no longer know what my limits are.."

-PG

 

[vandalbob]

Hope so

I sure hope he is clean. He's a fantastic racer to watch. Has he ever failed a drug test? If not, he must be clean....right? Don't we always hear that argument? It's also a sad state we're in to immediately accuse/suspect a strong performance is due to juicing-up.