Is Philippe Gilbert Doping?

[Swabian Lass]

You would like to believe he is clean?

I think that all depends on the attitude of the rider thus how well he is liked. If Gilbert was a *** then ironically he would not have as many people giving him the benefit of the doubt. His results are stupid from the end of last year. That is a fact, no matter how cool he is.

I don't like Gilbert all that much, actually. I admire him, but that's different. I certainly don't think he's cool. That hair is not cool. I would prefer to think he's clean, because I'd prefer to think that most riders are clean - but I know that logically they can't be. I have serious doubts about whether it's possible to do what Gilbert's done clean, even if there's less doping going on than perviously.

 

[Velo Dude]

suprising is being good until 27 and then kill them all.
almost out of nowhere

just like armstrong lol

You think Jack Armstrong was doping??!!

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Hilarious. In 1988 a rider was banned for using EPO???
Who? And How?
Short of the rider, him or herself, telling the testers about a drug they wouldnt have a test for, and would not even have heard of....

That is what the CN story says - and this is why we ask the question - because there might be someone on the forum who was around then or who knows the details of the story.

 

[Cloxxki]

Hilarious. In 1988 a rider was banned for using EPO???
Who? And How?
Short of the rider, him or herself, telling the testers about a drug they wouldnt have a test for, and would not even have heard of....

I've heard of spectacular recovery and performances after limited training for '88 Calgary. But was it even prohibited at all? I think it was just hush hush.

 

[andy1234]

That is what the CN story says - and this is why we ask the question - because there might be someone on the forum who was around then or who knows the details of the story.

I was around then. Testers didn't even know EPO existed, never mind have a test for it.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

That's nice - do you know who it was?

The article states:

In 1988, the first rider was banned for using EPO

no mention of a test. So it might well be that someone confessed to using it.
Poor paraphrasing on my part to suggest that it was from a test.

There are examples of people doing stupid things and blowing the gaff - wasn't Marion Jones' coach the person who sent the TGH syringe to the testers because he wanted to know what was in the mix?

 

[andy1234]

That's nice - do you know who it was?

The article states:



no mention of a test. So it might well be that someone confessed to using it.
Poor paraphrasing on my part to suggest that it was from a test.

There are examples of people doing stupid things and blowing the gaff - wasn't Marion Jones' coach the person who sent the TGH syringe to the testers because he wanted to know what was in the mix?

Someone has their dates wrong.
EPO wasn't a banned substance until 1990.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

OK. So why would the writer give 1988 as the date? What might they have confused it with?

E Randy Eichner 'Blood Doping : Infusions, Erythropoietin and Artificial Blood.' Sports Med. 2007 ;37 (4-5):389-391 (p390) gives 1987 as the arrival date for EPO in the peloton.

 

[andy1234]

OK. So why would the writer give 1988 as the date? What might they have confused it with?

E Randy Eichner 'Blood Doping : Infusions, Erythropoietin and Artificial Blood.' Sports Med. 2007 ;37 (4-5):389-391 (p390) gives 1987 as the arrival date for EPO in the peloton.

Hard to say when the quote isn't attributed to anyone.
The date is wrong and its wrong by many years.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Out of interest, what is the earliest date for banning for EPO use that you know of?

 

[L'arriviste]

That is what the CN story says - and this is why we ask the question - because there might be someone on the forum who was around then or who knows the details of the story.

I don't know the answer but what I would say though is that, in comparison with the decade as a whole, 1988 stands out as an uncommon year.

The following riders were recorded in the press and/or academic texts (so there may always be others) as having tested positive in 1988:

Kelly, Sean (codeine), April 7th
Ilegems, Roger (unknown), May 22nd
Van Slycke, Rik (unknown), June 14th
De La Cruz, Roque (testosterone) July 6th

Three positives on 'Dirty Friday':
Theunisse, Gert Jan (testosterone) July 15th
Kuum, Jaanus (unknown) July 15th
Delgado, Pedro (probenecid) July 15th

Haghedooren, Paul (unknown) August 19th

 

[djerkson]

Hello, as you all can see I'm quite new here. Nevertheless, I've been following this topic for quite some time. I'll just give you my opinion now.

Yes, I think the peloton is cleaner than it was 5 years ago. The main reason? Belgian cyclists were blown away wherever the road got a little more steep than in the Flemish roads. We were good in our classics + Paris-Roubaix, but in the hilly classics like LBL, FW and AGR, we were blown away by a Spanish armada (notable names like Sevilla, Mancebo, Valverde, Astarloa), Italian riders (Bettini, Rebellin, Di Luca or how about the Gewiss-Ballan team? ...) or even German riders (Telekom). It's new for me, as it is for our tv-commentators as well. I've been following cyclism since the late eighties and cycling never looked so good for Belgium in general. My dad tells me it was like this in the seventies.

In the last Classico San Sebastian, 4 Belgian riders were in the top 10...this seems like another era, a cleaner one in my opinion.

What about Gilbert? Well, you should take a look at his perfomances on the dutch wikipedia site http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Gilbert_(wielrenner). He didn't come out of nowhere. In 2006, he won the very difficult race 'Omloop het volk' in a Merckxian way...People like Merckx and other famous ex-cyclists told us back then he would become on the best of his generation at a certain age and they were right.

Take a look at his results this year, yes it seems unbelievable and too good to be true, but it is always in the same way. He has been training on these kind of finishes for the last 3 years. He never does a solo of 50k like Cancellara did (or like user-Museeuw did). Solo in AGR? 500 meters. Solo in FW? 350 meters. Solo in LBL? 0 km...solo in TDF stage 1? 100 meters...

It's a poker game and he wins often this year, probably due to a good morale and years of experience of timing. He was in front in Milan-San Remo, Tour of Flanders and last year's world championship and three times the peloton took him back. Today in the Eneco Tour, it was almost the same thing.

So my point: Do I think he's clean? Yes, I do, or at least as clean as the rest of the world top :x. Cavendish is the world's best sprinter, Cancellara has been a dominator in time trial stages for years (maybe Martin is becoming the new champ here), and Gilbert is specialized in hilly stages. Each discipline has its champion. And, I'm sorry, but saying someone is doped based on their number of victories is quite ridiculous.

 

[For The World]

How can a clean rider beat doped riders?

This is always an issue of contention for me. Saying "how can a clean rider beat a doped rider?" implies that riders who dope will perform better than riders who do not. That in itself cannot be true because each persons body will react differently to chemical stimulants/enhancements. Just look at how some people react to certain antibiotics to get an idea.

Unless there was a study conducted where riders were actually allowed to use PEDs in a controlled environment to gauge their response, there's no real way we can say for sure that clean riders will never beat doped ones.

 

[patterson_hood]

Hello, as you all can see I'm quite new here. Nevertheless, I've been following this topic for quite some time. I'll just give you my opinion now.

Yes, I think the peloton is cleaner than it was 5 years ago. The main reason? Belgian cyclists were blown away wherever the road got a little more steep than in the Flemish roads.

In the last Classico San Sebastian, 4 Belgian riders were in the top 10...this seems like another era, a cleaner one in my opinion.

But then you'd expect someone who trains on Flemish roads to lose on the high mountains wouldn't you? Of course riders now travel to train on different terrain so this is negated but claiming that cycling is cleaner because Belgians are winning is very weak. It'd be just as easy to say that the Belgians have caught up with their doping practices.

 

[Benotti69]

But then you'd expect someone who trains on Flemish roads to lose on the high mountains wouldn't you? Of course riders now travel to train on different terrain so this is negated but claiming that cycling is cleaner because Belgians are winning is very weak. It'd be just as easy to say that the Belgians have caught up with their doping practices.

Gilbert is a resident on of Monaco and trains on the roads in southern France along with the likes of Boonen, Husvod and others to name a few. Yep he knows the Flemish roads but they are not hard to get to know on parcours that haven't deviated for year and years.

 

[patterson_hood]

But then you'd expect someone who trains on Flemish roads to lose on the high mountains wouldn't you? Of course riders now travel to train on different terrain so this is negated but claiming that cycling is cleaner because Belgians are winning is very weak. It'd be just as easy to say that the Belgians have caught up with their doping practices.

Gilbert is a resident on of Monaco and trains on the roads in southern France along with the likes of Boonen, Husvod and others to name a few. Yep he knows the Flemish roads but they are not hard to get to know on parcours that haven't deviated for year and years.

I know, that's why I said the part in bold, sorry but I'm not sure I get what you're saying. My main point is that claiming cycling is cleaner because Belgians are having a stronger showing is a little flawed to put it nicely.

 

[Benotti69]

I know, that's why I said the part in bold, sorry but I'm not sure I get what you're saying. My main point is that claiming cycling is cleaner because Belgians are having a stronger showing is a little flawed to put it nicely.

Bingo it's because of the Flemish 'diet'

 

[Anonymous]

What bothers me isnt the number of the wins, but the fact that he has now been on form for what seems like about 6 months. I dont think I have ever seen a rider hold peak form from the start of the season through to August.

the fact that he appears to be able to ride away, at will, from who he likes, when he likes, and how he likes also troubles me.

Ive stopped taking the guys results seriously now.

 

[sniper]

Bingo it's because of the Flemish 'diet'

Gilbert is Wallonian right? not for being a smart-***, but because there might be some correlation there between the recent Wallonian and French uprising in cycling.

 

[Benotti69]

Gilbert is Wallonian right? not for being a smart-***, but because there might be some correlation there between the recent Wallonian and French uprising in cycling.

when a Wallonian 'diets' like a Flemish you get Gilbert

 

[L'arriviste]

What bothers me isnt the number of the wins, but the fact that he has now been on form for what seems like about 6 months. I dont think I have ever seen a rider hold peak form from the start of the season through to August.

the fact that he appears to be able to ride away, at will, from who he likes, when he likes, and how he likes also troubles me.

Ive stopped taking the guys results seriously now.

+1. I have to say that since LBL, I'm no longer much of a Philbert fan, for all the same reasons.

Strange times indeed when you're darkly troubled by seeing your sporting heroes win (yet again).

 

[AussieGoddess]

What bothers me isnt the number of the wins, but the fact that he has now been on form for what seems like about 6 months. I dont think I have ever seen a rider hold peak form from the start of the season through to August.

the fact that he appears to be able to ride away, at will, from who he likes, when he likes, and how he likes also troubles me.

Ive stopped taking the guys results seriously now.

see I dont think he has been on peak for that long.

He trained and peaked for the Ardennes (April), and had been in good form for a bit before that (MSR to RVV was pretty good) .

He did race from then until the tour - and won - but honestly didnt need to be in tip top shape to win some of those.

The Tour - he was good on day 1 (July 4), and after that he did have a good tour ... but wasnt in top form. If he was he would have won more than just the first stage. He couldnt beat Cuddles up the Mur de Bretagne ... thats not top form.

He was good again for San Sebastian (August 1) ... and has been good at Eneco as he wants it pretty badly.

So - he has really picked what he wants, and peaked for those. Yeah its a lot of peaks, but he also has had a pretty fantastic team to help him. He hasnt had to work until the last few km's, and all his wins have been pretty much on his terms. (ie hard-ish race to split things up, and he has been led until the last km)

The only time I have really seen him have to work for it was the stage last night at Eneco when he solo'd for 5km's.

 

[Bumeington]

What bothers me isnt the number of the wins, but the fact that he has now been on form for what seems like about 6 months. I dont think I have ever seen a rider hold peak form from the start of the season through to August.

the fact that he appears to be able to ride away, at will, from who he likes, when he likes, and how he likes also troubles me.

Ive stopped taking the guys results seriously now.

To me, short periods of peak form suggest an "enhanced" peak. Yes Gilbert is very dominant, and he did have a ridiculous spring, but he didn't dominate in the tour, he was the favourite for stage 1 and he won it, but failed on some others e.g. stage 4. Since then, he won San Sebastian but he was the favourite for that so it's not too suprising.

I have no suspicions over Gilbert's dominance, nor his ability to hold a long peak, for me the only suspicious thing is his time up Mur de Huy, for sure the rest of the race was raced much easier than when Rebellin won, but not sure if that can make up for an extra 10% or so that Davide was getting from PEDs.

He's clearly very talented, enough so that he can win the tour of belgium coming off a break (clearly not in peak form) and I think it's unreasonably to single him out, if he's doping then so is his competition

 

[sniper]

To me, short periods of peak form suggest an "enhanced" peak. Yes Gilbert is very dominant, and he did have a ridiculous spring, but he didn't dominate in the tour, he was the favourite for stage 1 and he won it, but failed on some others e.g. stage 4. Since then, he won San Sebastian but he was the favourite for that so it's not too suprising.

I have no suspicions over Gilbert's dominance, nor his ability to hold a long peak, for me the only suspicious thing is his time up Mur de Huy, for sure the rest of the race was raced much easier than when Rebellin won, but not sure if that can make up for an extra 10% or so that Davide was getting from PEDs.

He's clearly very talented, enough so that he can win the tour of belgium coming off a break (clearly not in peak form) and I think it's unreasonably to single him out, if he's doping then so is his competition

there is some circular reasoning in that part in bold.

Also, the question isn't really if he's doping (only a fool would doubt that), but rather what he's having for breakfast that others aren't having.

On the other hand, I'm surely not arguing against the "clearly very talented" part of your post. In the absence of other factors (i.e. in a hypothetical level playing field), I'd definitely expect him to stand out. But his winning streak is quite exceptional, and IMO suggests that he's on to something more revolutionary.

 

[Big Doopie]

What bothers me isnt the number of the wins, but the fact that he has now been on form for what seems like about 6 months. I dont think I have ever seen a rider hold peak form from the start of the season through to August.

um...not since the 70s and 80s, I agree.

plenty of riders rode great throughout an entire season in those days.

this "peaking" became trendy with the arrival of blood vector drugs.

make your own conclusions.

tough to say. but riding well throughout the season is not proof of doping. if anything...