Is steel still real?

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Both very nice - I tend to prefer the traditional frame of the toma though, to the sloping cinelli.

How does stainless ride?

Never have, but I'm intrigued. Columbus XCr tubing which both these bikes use is probably the lightest steel there is. 16lb (7.2kg) bikes can be completed with these frames. That's outstanding!

 

[fatsprintking]

As long as its sitting in my garage its "mine".

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Never have, but I'm intrigued. Columbus XCr tubing which both these bikes use is probably the lightest steel there is. 16lb (7.2kg) bikes can be completed with these frames. That's outstanding!

Had a stainless Waterford, 953, lugged. Road like any really nice steel frame. Columbus is lighter but the $ of stainless puts it in the realm of a lot of titanium frames.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

If you want stainless and are willing to pay those prices you would be better to order a custom build from someone like Carl Strong or even Dario Pegoretti and have something that is "yours".

The one caveat is that I don't pay retail being in the industry. I would be able to proform either of those bikes since they're production models, no deals like that if I went custom. If I had 3k burning a hole in my pocket I'd probably go full custom Ti right in my backyard from Daryl Funk. Pegoretti maybe, I've wanted one for a long time.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Yes, forgot about that little fact would make a difference.

Dario's new model "Day is Done" is stunning.

Lugged stainless with a steel fork.

Ideally the thing to do would be to take the trip to Dario's place and have a real custom done while I hang out in the area for a month. 6 years ago I actually went on a road trip right past Trento really close to where he's based out of, didn't even stop. [slapping hand on forehead]. I was on a mission though, retracing a map that my dad used for a road trip back in the 60's. Twas fun!

I wouldn't be satisfied getting a stock model Pegoretti from Gita. Ok, well maybe I would, but could you imagine hanging out with this guy while he builds your bike? Chance of a lifetime!

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I've posted this vid before in some other thread, but since we're heavy on the topic of Pegoretti, watch this if you haven't already. http://youtu.be/nyIUlvk5nRQ

Shouldn't be that hard of a decision for me to get into a Pegoretti, thing is I've accumulated so many frames over the years that I keep thinking I'll build them up someday so I keep them. Honestly, I feel like selling most all of them off just to fund a custom Pegoretti. One of the true masters of his craft, a living legend. After him there really isn't much left to choose from when it comes to the real deal Italian frame builders that have had as much of an impact on steel bicycle fabrication as Dario.

In the video check out the "Day is Done" picture on the wall when they're all sitting down for dinner. Forking hilarious!

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

I've posted this vid before in some other thread, but since we're heavy on the topic of Pegoretti, watch this if you haven't already. http://youtu.be/nyIUlvk5nRQ

Read this if you haven't already. http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2010/05/intangibles-steel-is-real-but-how-does.html

It's bad enough going to bike shows and watching clueless people in cycling caps, shants, and messenger bags staring at welds or lugs from a centimeter's distance and pretending they know what they're looking at--now they're going to start smelling the frames too. Really, the last thing we need is a whole convention center full of people sniffing butts. I guess we can now also add "smell" to the increasingly esoteric list of ways to quantify your bicycle, which also includes milk, babies, and sunglasses. It also adds a whole new sensory dimension to the age-old practice of ascribing mystical properties to steel bicycles--which we all know "draw a circle" when you ride them.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Been reading Bike Snob NYC pretty much since day one. Guy never has an off day, cracks me up every time.

 

[usedtobefast]

[/IMG]
bringing this one back to the mix. a top flight race bike in it's day. still a great
machine.

 

[Boeing]

whats up with your brake lever position?

 

[TexPat]

whats up with your brake lever position?

+1 Makes my back and hands ache just by looking at it--and the old perforated saddle...
but I'm not so young and flexible anymore.

I'm enjoying this "steel is real" discussion. I doubt that anyone who posts on this forum is losing anything by riding a nice steel frame. In fact, for the price of the average carbon fiber frame, most of us could be riding a custom steel one with little, if any, disadvantage.
Don't get me wrong; I love the carbon off-the-peg stuff, but nothing rides (nor fits!) like a custom steel frame. Now, with the XCR stuff et al, the weight is getting very close to the carbon stuff.
For a while, I feared the demise of the material. Now it appears to be making quite a bit of comeback. Is it due to the perceived or demonstrable shortcomings of carbon fiber?
OT Is that a vintage Ludwig tom in the background?

 

[usedtobefast]

whats up with your brake lever position?

i get very low. notice the deep drop Cinelli bars. you guys must not be very flexible. that saddle is old for sure. looks cool, but i will swap it out.
and yes that is a vintage Ludwig tom. i have 3 drumkits to choose from if needed.

 

[Granville57]

Keeping our priorities straight

i get very low. notice the deep drop Cinelli bars. you guys must not be very flexible. that saddle is old for sure. looks cool, but i will swap it out.
and yes that is a vintage Ludwig tom. i have 3 drumkits to choose from if needed.

Hmmm. Judging by the size of those lugs, the height of the rims, the lack of white paint on the interior, the absence of reinforcement hoops, and what appear to be fairly robust bearing edges—I'm going to guess mid to late 1980's...on the floor tom, that is.
(Of course it could be '70s but I can't see the badge!)

OT Is that a vintage Ludwig tom in the background?
Last edited by TexPat; 04-15-11 at 04:15. Reason: Spotted important detail

 

[TexPat]

Arguably not OT at all---my current Ludwig kit (green label from the 70's) has chrome covering.

 

[usedtobefast]

Hmmm. Judging by the size of those lugs, the height of the rims, the lack of white paint on the interior, the absence of reinforcement hoops, and what appear to be fairly robust bearing edges—I'm going to guess mid to late 1980's...on the floor tom, that is.
(Of course it could be '70s but I can't see the badge!)

you are correct. it is drum i never use. 12x12 from the 80's. all maple. nice drum. i got it out to figure out if i wanted to sell it.

 

[EatsFats]

Steel experience

Wow! I can't believe this thread has been running for so long! I thought I might as well add my experience. First of all, I am not a steel "fanboy". I use whatever is best, I go for the ride, the price, the fit, the durability...

I live in a rain forest region. Seriously. It's wet here. I'm also surrounded by mountains, so if weight matters a lot, I'll feel it here.

In my stable, I've got 2 mountain bikes (one steel, one aluminum). The steel one is actually by far the more responsive machine, it's actually a semi-race rig I think. And no, there is no sign of rust. It's a hard-tail and I wouldn't get rid of that for anything. I might add to my collection, but get rid of it? No, it rides too well.

I've also got 2 road bikes, one steel, edging over 15 years old and one aluminum that's over 10 years old. First feel is that the newer Al bike is more responsive and much lighter. I weighed it and it does come in at least 1-2kg lighter. That was the bike to take on the road every time and the steel one sat in the corner for, well, ever since I got the new Al bike. Then last year I decided to clean up the steel. There was no rust, just clean up some crud and re-grease. I slapped on the same pedals as the Al bike and gave it the same tires (nothing but Vredestein for me anymore!). WOW! What a difference. Now I find I take out that old steel bike half the time.
I do a regular commute to work (with good amount of climbing) about 16 km each way.
* Virtually no measurable difference in time between the 2 bikes
* I don't "feel" any extra weight going up the hills. The steel, despite being a bit heavier, is a joy to ride.

Differences? Yeah, but the geometry is so different, one is Campy, one is Shimano, I doubt any of it is the material.

I'm actually thinking of adding to my stable and tops on the list is Marinoni steel (Columbus Spirit). Any concerns about durability there? I swear I could squeeze the tubes...
I'm not a heavy weight, maybe 70kg, but very easy on my equipment. My rims (no truing) & brakes have gone past 20000km mark and still going.

 

[drb716]

Anyone know where the newer (2011-2012) Raleigh International frames are made? A number of websites list multiple manufacturing centers for Raleigh - I'm curious if lugged steel construction had been sent to the far east as well.
Thanks

 

[Boeing]

I am an oldtimer returning from a 15 year hiatus from riding and road racing. Have my 90's LeMond TSX in great condition, and was wondering how much better the composite bikes are. Weight and stiffness are obvious differences. What about comfort? Many of these bikes cost more than I paid for my last car. Want to begin riding with the local clubs again and eventually time trials.

great bike to spin around on and get back to fitness.

However you might find the bottom bracket is not stiff enough to hammer especial if you did a lot of hard riding before.

Component comparability will be an issue as well as look to add new parts

 

[BroDeal]

great bike to spin around on and get back to fitness.

However you might find the bottom bracket is not stiff enough to hammer especial if you did a lot of hard riding before.

Component comparability will be an issue as well as look to add new parts

Not the old "frames go soft" myth.

Upgrade the components pand wheels. The total weight will probably drop by four pounds. The bike will work great for whatever he wants to use it for. Plus it will be a lot more stylish than plastic.

 

[Llewellyn]

My Llewellyn is steel, and very real. It's lugged, fantastic, beautiful to ride and handles like a charm (shame about the motor sometimes!!!!)

The only other bike I can ever envisage myself buying would be another Llewellyn frame

 

[usedtobefast]

Not the old "frames go soft" myth.

Upgrade the components pand wheels. The total weight will probably drop by four pounds. The bike will work great for whatever he wants to use it for. Plus it will be a lot more stylish than plastic.

i must agree. ride as is and you will be fine. you could upgrade components, but to what end? if you need lighter stuff,ok, but that is a nice bike.TSX is good tubing,and i disagree about the bottom bracket. it should ride very well,and sprint great.

 

[Boeing]

Not the old "frames go soft" myth.

Upgrade the components pand wheels. The total weight will probably drop by four pounds. The bike will work great for whatever he wants to use it for. Plus it will be a lot more stylish than plastic.

please dont put your myopia in my mouth. at what point did I attempt to compare to another material?

bars and stem as a start nimrod Upgrade or replace....

For a guy with so muchself proclaimed knowledge of the sport bro it sounds to me more and more like you have less and less hands on experience and just blow fables yourself from the good old days



I didnt say it wouldnt work great but please dont sit her all proud of you pedigree in the sport and try to tell me steel doesnt fatigue with use over the years especially TSX or even 853.

OK sure google sheldon brown balh balh ill get right on that man dig? pass

lets see what next oh yes it an industry conspiracy that carbon tech is stiff just to sell more bikes with cheaper mfg cost. you said that before as well shall we go on oh yea and bike companies never outsourced their frames it some production equivalent of today's open mold back when they used steel ... I got it bro

memo to bro: these are the good old days

here it comes another patronizing reply....beat chest patriarch of the board

 

[BroDeal]

p
I didnt say it wouldnt work great but please dont sit her all proud of you pedigree in the sport and try to tell me steel doesnt fatigue with use over the years especially TSX or even 853.

OK sure google sheldon brown balh balh ill get right on that man dig? pass

Ahhh. A little touchy there when your ridiculous old wives tales get called out. The bottom bracket might not be stiff enough to hammer especially if you did a lot of hard riding before? Really. You don't like Sheldon Brown then let's read what Jobst Brandt has to say about steel frames going "soft."

Subject: 8e.5 Frames "going soft"
From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:31:32 PDT

> I have read accounts of "frames going dead" in cycling literature in
> the past. If you have information that debunks this, I'd like to
> know about it. The explanations I have read claim that the flexing
> of a metal causes it to heat up and harden, making it more brittle.
> Eventually it will break under stress. In fact, I read recently
> that aluminum frames are coming out with warning stickers stating
> "this frame will break someday". I have also read that this happens
> to titanium and steel.

It was in print, therefore it is true! Also known, is that a freshly
washed and polished car runs better. Just the idea that the car is
admirably clean makes this concept appear true for many drivers. The
same psychosomatic mechanism is at work when a bicycle racer thinks it
is time for a new frame. I even suspect that some frame builders
assisted in spreading this idea to improve frame sales.

Metal fatigue and failure occur, but they do not change the elastic
response of the metal. Steel (and of course aluminum and other common
metals) have been metallurgically characterized over more than a
century to a precise understanding. None of this research has shown
the possibility of perceptible change in elastic response from any
stresses to which a bicycle frame might be subjected.

You mention brittleness. Brittleness describes the failure mode of a
material and is not a perceptible unless the material breaks.
Hardness is also not perceptible unless you exceed the elastic limit
and permanently bend the frame, exposing the metal's yield point, the
point at which it no longer rebounds. If not, it springs back
unchanged as do most ceramics such as a dish, or a glass that is
dropped without breaking. If it breaks, it does not bend and none of
the shards show any distortion. It either breaks or it doesn't.
That's brittleness personified.

What escapes the believers of material change is that neither
"softening" or "hardening" effects the elastic modulus of the metal.
A coat hanger and a highspeed steel drill of the same diameter have
the same elastic bending stiffness. For small bending deflections,
both are equally stiff, although the hardened steel can bend farther
than the soft steel and still spring back unchanged. The stress at
which it permanently deforms is the measure of "hardness" of the
metal, not its elasticity.

Classically, when bicycle parts or frames fail, the rider usually
notices nothing before hand. This is true for most thick cross
section parts and often even frame tubes frames. The reason for this,
is that to permit any perceptible change in deflection, all the added
elasticity must come from a crack that has practically no volume. So
the crack would need to open substantially to, by itself, allow
perceptible motion. Since this is not possible without complete
failure, the crack grows in length, but not width, until the remaining
cross section can no longer support the load, at which time it
separates.

> If these ideas have been widely disproven, I'd appreciate knowing
> how. I've read all six parts of the FAQ and did not see it mentioned.

The reason this was not in the FAQ may be that the whole subject is so
preposterous to engineers, metallurgists, and physicists, that they,
the people who might explain it, are generally not inclined to bother
discussing whether "the moon is made of green cheese" or not.

> PS. If what you're objecting to is the use of the word "dead" as
> opposed to brittle and inflexible, I'll grant you that.

The objection is that you present something for which there is no iota
of scientific evidence, nor any even slightly credible explanation, as
though it were fact. It is as though bicyclists have a different
natural world, where the technical laws are entirely different from
all other machinery, and the most perceptive technical insights come
from the strongest bicycle racers. "After all who knows more about
bicycles, you or the world champion?" is a common retort.

Jobst Brandt <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>

I guess old Jobst was wrong. I'm sure you can sort the issue out with him. Maybe you can win him over with your customary smugness.

 

[Burnette]

Steel is definately real

There is nothing wrong with steel, everything has pluses and minuses, if you like steel, go for it. I was going to buy a custom steel bike last year before, made another purchase, still looking to do a custom steel bike in the future. There are several custom steel shops to choose from, Steelmancycles is a good one.

 

[Boeing]

If the question is Can he do better? then yes

If it is Does he have to do better? then it 'depends'.

If you are set in your ways then you probably wear 'depends'