Is Team Columbia really clean?

[BigBoat]

The team is testing, the UCI is testing at the tour the AFLD will be testing. Are we assuming that this is all a waste of time?

!

Its not a waste for the UCI because its PR (public relations.)

I would either 100% legalize doping (no testing, no WADA). Or I'd do total body hemoglbins and keep all the WADA controls... WADA is on the loosing side big time right now though having to deal with these gov. bodies...and of course new drugs all the time. (and peptide hormones)

 

[Baggins27]

Threads like this one are why I've stopped coming on here.


I don't understand how you can avidly watch cycling and then, after every single stage or good performance, immediately write off the result as fake due to doping. Someone has to win these races. Some rider has to be the best GC rider or the best sprinter or the best TT guy or the best domestique. One team will be top of the table when it comes to race wins. But, on here, whoever is the latest person to have a bit of success or whichever rider starts to improve is immediately accused of doping.

If I was that disillusioned with a sport or activity then I would stop watching it. End of story. I certainly wouldn't be taking a keen interest or watching every race just so I can then be the first to accuse the latest stage winner or young contender or good team of being a doper. It's very very silly. And very very boring.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

How is Team Columbia consistently beating these doped riders?

The same way USPS/Discovery did. They are really so much better than not only everyone else, but everyone that's doping as well.

Or, they're doping.

Hate to say this, and people are going to accuse me of being more cynical than BigBoat, but I've suspected for some time that some teams "anti-doping" programs, are really fronts for testing their riders to make sure that they don't pee hot at controls and thus cost the team embarrassment, and money. I have no connections and no insight to prove this possible wild claim, and merely speculating. But Kohl's statements on Lotto's glee at his bio numbers really got me suspecting this even more.

I agree with you completely but sadly good journalism is very hard to find these days and it's certainly not limited to the cycling reporters.

Having worked in broadcast TV, including some news, you are making a blanket statement. But you're also correct. News organizations are owned by bigger corporations with share holders expecting results that translate into profits. And those are based on sales numbers which are hinged to ratings. Coming up with great investigative journalism is a great way to get ratings up. It's also hard as hell, and takes serious work. Another way to get ratings up is to have attractive reports and reporters cover the latest noise on Lindsay Lohan, Manny Ramirez, or American Idol.

Journalists and reporters often have so little time, and so little resources, it's not only easy to become lazy in a sense, but also situations and deadlines compel them to simply regurgitate other news stories on the wires. Especially when the audience has grown to accept it.

Would encourage anyone here to read Greg Palast. What he says in his laments about the lack of true investigative journalism today is startlingly accurate and incisive.

 

[ambrose]

Threads like this one are why I've stopped coming on here.

I really agree with this. This forum seems to be dominated with really negative and disolusioned people. Maybe columbia wins all the sprints because they have a leadout train full of riders who can be sprinters in their own right. Give them some respect. Stop being so negative, and give the sport a chance instead of bad mouthing it at every opurtunity.

 

[Anonymous]

Well like dude says, you gotta look at the pedigree of those guys.

Eisel
Greipel
Cavendish
Kirchen

always win races. Albasini always peaks at his home race. And Martin and Boason Hagen are the two biggest future stars in the peleton.

So I don't see the results as anomalous in the sense of they're doing anything different than before. George still chokes at Paris Roubaix.

exactly.. they are specialising at sprints, focusing on certain races, for instance the entire team was 100% devoted to milan san remo.. did any other team show the same level of conviction..

If, as someone says, they start going away on mountain stages, or winning GT's by a mile, then start questioning. They are akin to someone like Carl Lewis, dominating in certain disciplines, and built his career about that.. if he had switched to the 1500m or steeplechase and started winning that, then its time to raise eyebrows. .

on the world rankings they dont actually have a rider in the top 10. (cav is 12th, EBH 25th, and its been fairly obvious for years just how special those two both where).. i actually compare the columbia team to the current domestic halfords team racing the british crits.. absolutely dominant over the last 2k-5k and putting a train on the front of the pelaton that nobody seems to be able to do anything about.. doped.. no.. but with the likes of clancy, rob hayles, pretty much a gb track pursuit team on the front, they are always going to be the best..

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

This reminds me a little of the speculative talk when Brad Wiggins held onto the climbers for the first mountain stage in the Giro. That caused a snit storm of speculation that he must be doped.

Well, a little over a week later he could barely keep up with the autobus on the Petrano stage finishing 4th from last, and the previous discussion was a distant memory.

Let's see how Columbia does after the Tour is over, or by the end of the season.

 

[BigBoat]

exactly.. they are specialising at sprints, focusing on certain races, for instance the entire team was 100% devoted to milan san remo.. did any other team show the same level of conviction..

If, as someone says, they start going away on mountain stages, or winning GT's by a mile, then start questioning. They are akin to someone like Carl Lewis, dominating in certain disciplines, and built his career about that.. if he had switched to the 1500m or steeplechase and started winning that, then its time to raise eyebrows. .

on the world rankings they dont actually have a rider in the top 10. (cav is 12th, EBH 25th, and its been fairly obvious for years just how special those two both where).. i actually compare the columbia team to the current domestic halfords team racing the british crits.. absolutely dominant over the last 2k-5k and putting a train on the front of the pelaton that nobody seems to be able to do anything about.. doped.. no.. but with the likes of clancy, rob hayles, pretty much a gb track pursuit team on the front, they are always going to be the best..

Dim... 100% of the team was also doped for Milan San remo.

 

[clementcrit]

I'm new to this forum/comment stuff but totally agree with Baggins27 and ambrose already.

 

[patswana]

Hate to say this, and people are going to accuse me of being more cynical than BigBoat, but I've suspected for some time that some teams "anti-doping" programs, are really fronts for testing their riders to make sure that they don't pee hot at controls and thus cost the team embarrassment, and money. I have no connections and no insight to prove this possible wild claim, and merely speculating. But Kohl's statements on Lotto's glee at his bio numbers really got me suspecting this even more.

There are two reasons for having internal testing programs. Firstly, as you say, to make sure that the internal doping program is not detectable. Secondly, if that fails and a rider does test positive, it provides the team management and sponsors with 'plausible deniability'. They get to play the role of the innocent victim, "We did everything we can to stop riders cheating. But that naughty rider has embarrassed poor us".

If anyone thinks that most of the doped riders are cheating without the knowledge of the team, then they are dreaming.

 

[benpounder]

Its not a waste for the UCI because its PR (public relations.)

I've long thought that cycling ought to create another division, another jersey - like boat racing - the unlimited or doper category. Once a rider admits, is caught, or has strong implications of riding while jacked, will forever be considered jacked. Records books will be adjusted retroactively to place that rider in the appropiate class - prize winnings will be forcably redistributed accordingly. Sponsorship fees are exempt, of course, for if one wants to pay anything to have their name on the podium, they ought to have that right,

Just let all know what they are paying for...

Consider the benefit. Watching a race up l'Alpe between Richardo Ricco, Michael Rasmussen and Marco Pantani - winning time 35 minutes! Poor Richard Virenque finishes in fourth only 30 seconds back, with green jersey holder Cavendish finishing a whopping 4 minutes back...

 

[BigBoat]

I really agree with this. This forum seems to be dominated with really negative and disolusioned people. Maybe columbia wins all the sprints because they have a leadout train full of riders who can be sprinters in their own right. Give them some respect. Stop being so negative, and give the sport a chance instead of bad mouthing it at every opurtunity.

They do have good talent and they worked very hard to get where they are. But they are also blood doped and on 02 carriers. Some people on the forum think that's illegitimate and others dont think it is... Some think the riders are clean which is a joke. Its a ferris wheel this forum.

 

[benpounder]

Maybe columbia wins all the sprints because they have a leadout train full of riders who can be sprinters in their own right. Give them some respect. Stop being so negative, and give the sport a chance instead of bad mouthing it at every opurtunity.

Yeah! and that is why they constantly are near the top in team competetion, and why they always have several riders in the top 10 GC...

The Pheonix of Team Telekom - how far from it's nest does it really fly?

 

[BigBoat]

I've long thought that cycling ought to create another division, another jersey - like boat racing - the unlimited or doper category. Once a rider admits, is caught, or has strong implications of riding while jacked, will forever be considered jacked. Records books will be adjusted retroactively to place that rider in the appropiate class - prize winnings will be forcably redistributed accordingly. Sponsorship fees are exempt, of course, for if one wants to pay anything to have their name on the podium, they ought to have that right,

Just let all know what they are paying for...

Consider the benefit. Watching a race up l'Alpe between Richardo Ricco, Michael Rasmussen and Marco Pantani - winning time 35 minutes! Poor Richard Virenque finishes in fourth only 30 seconds back, with green jersey holder Cavendish finishing a whopping 4 minutes back...

Its a fun thought.... very close to fully doped right now though. If they can jack their crits with blood doping their pretty much as good as they can get.

 

[workingclasshero]

If, as someone says, they start going away on mountain stages, or winning GT's by a mile, then start questioning. They are akin to someone like Carl Lewis , dominating in certain disciplines, and built his career about that.. if he had switched to the 1500m or steeplechase and started winning that, then its time to raise eyebrows. .

nice defense. i would think most people know that carl lewis was no angel

 

[karlboss]

I'm a big fan of columbia. If you believe as bigboat does that everyone is jacked to the max, then how do explain this team's dominance? Same as if everyone were clean...good riders, working as a team.

How many staff and riders still remain from the bad old days?

 

[workingclasshero]

How many staff and riders still remain from the bad old days?

erik zabel works with them.
bob stapleton owns them

etc

 

[msjett]

I have to say, that the doping argument does get a tad tiresome. This thread was posted to get people to debate, yet once again whether or not they think a team is clean.

One thing I will say, for me personally, unless I am able to see it done with my own eyes, I can't speculate that it isn't happening or it is happening. So I get to sit with the also delusional "maybe it's not happening and the sport is maybe clean" side of the room. Which kinda sucks!

But I guess, as a few have pointed out, that this team still has the tarnish from T-Mobile/Telekom days, and all that came of that, mind you seems more comes out as time goes on.

I have nothing against the Columbia team, it's bonus for me, they have several Australian riders on their roster, and I get to see them race.

 

[Mellow Velo]

OK: Let's assume for the sake of argument, that they are riding clean, as are the other "medically monitored" teams.
Tour of Switzerland. When Cancellara wins today's ITT and Columbia riders are packed in behind, it will mean only two of the twenty one teams will have won everything.
Same thing applies to the ardent Astana fans, who wish and expect a Tour podium clean sweep.

Where does that left the rest? With very limited options, I'd say.
Sponsors want value for money and the pressure to obtain results grows,(unless they are French teams) as a handful of teams dominate the sport.

It can only foster a climate whereby there is an escalation in doping practices that risks riders futures.

 

[msjett]

I would imagine the pressure to do anything to improve performance for any team or rider would be enormous. Although, I see the catch 22, if one team dominates, fans become bored and switch off the races or don't go along and watch. Then there is no money for teams cause sponsors don't get there monies worth in advertising/tv time, the organisers don't make money and hello the sport fails.

And sadly it would seem that that would be a plausable excuse to do whatever it takes to get to the top or somewhere near it.

 

[Anonymous]

Dim... 100% of the team was also doped for Milan San remo.

the time has finally come to put bb on my ignore list...
im getting bored with reading about heamocrit levels now..

 

[karlboss]

Stapleton took over in 2006 after puerto and seems to have been the one driving the changing of the guard.

 

[dominicsavio]

Columbia Highroad are clean!

Is it not possible that the problem is more a matter of your interpretation of the facts rather than the facts themselves. Is it not possible to have good racers, good team spirit and riders peaking at the correct time? All this can happen without drugs! They are doing that for which they are paid for!! Confidence and talent surely win! With money one can collect good riders who are clean.

 

[SpeedWay]

I'm new to this forum/comment stuff but totally agree with Baggins27 and ambrose already.

Get ready, it gets much worse. At least this thread is on topic. This same cast of characters will hijack every thread and turn it into dope talk 101. These so-called anti-dopers are like the loser chick in a relationship that won't stop talking about her ex. OTOH, if your young and impressionable and want to learn how to dope these antit-dopers will lay it all out for you. If you can't afford your own program you've come to the right place!!!

 

[Mellow Velo]

Get ready, it gets much worse. At least this thread is on topic. This same cast of characters will hijack every thread and turn it into dope talk 101. These so-called anti-dopers are like the loser chick in a relationship that won't stop talking about her ex. OTOH, if your young and impressionable and want to learn how to dope these antit-dopers will lay it all out for you. If you can't afford your own program you've come to the right place!!!

So, what does this post constitute?
No view on Columbia, so surely a hijacking dope 101 post.

I agree, msjett. Putting the speculation aside.
For the neutral watching the Tour of Switzerland, this week must have been a bit of a bore, regardless of the Cancellara tailored parcours.
Watching one team hog the victories, is repetitious.

This week can hardly have increased the sport's fanbase.

 

[msjett]

It probably didn't increase the fan base...but the sponsors got their monies worth.