Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

[nickhalliwell]

yer that is a fair point.... but still have to accept that the weight froome has got down to for his height as well as how hard he has trained give him an excellent physique to be a strong rider.
Considering the last 20 years everyone has been doping it would seem fair to say froome is still talented even if it is with the aid doping brings (if he is doping)
as he is beating other guys doping.
Are people saying contador is not that talented? as since doping controls have become stricter he is not the same rider so theres an argument for froome being more naturally talented than contador surely? Generally I have viewed ac as super talented and one of the most exciting cyclists but this may not then be the case following your logic...
In football and other sports players are allowed to develop late ie due to training wrong or being tactically stupid when younger... jsut because theres dope in cycling seems unfair to say someones not talented if they emerge to be a great rider later in life.
In fact considering the more stringent doping measures the fact froome has put in such incredible times on such prestigous climbs suggests he has a fair bit of natural talent imo.
However how we judge natural talent is very hard in a sport which if it is dirty, the majority of high class results are by dopers. For example some young guys may do extremely well because they know what they are doing in terms of being on a good doping programme that works for them, whilst another rider may be slower to get on the correct doping programme or to dope and come across as nor paticularly talented.

 

[nickhalliwell]

whys that so funny... you think it makes sense for someone to win the tdf by 5 mins and be a poor cyclist? that seems mental

 

[LaFlorecita]

whys that so funny... you think it makes sense for someone to win the tdf by 5 mins and be a poor cyclist? that seems mental

Perhaps he's protected which would mean he can dope as much as he wants. Others have to be careful not to test positive.

See Richie Porte. In 2010 he was okay but not great, then in 2011 he was proper ****, then he joined sky and became one of the best climbers in the world. Holy fuxk. You're not going to tell me he didn't dope at Saxo are you?

 

[the sceptic]

whys that so funny... you think it makes sense for someone to win the tdf by 5 mins and be a poor cyclist? that seems mental

Many clowns like Froome have gone from being pack fodder to winning grand tours. Do you think Sir Bjarne Riis was a good cyclist before he won the tour?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Are people saying contador is not that talented? as since doping controls have become stricter he is not the same rider so theres an argument for froome being more naturally talented than contador surely? Generally I have viewed ac as super talented and one of the most exciting cyclists but this may not then be the case following your logic...

Contador is most definitely not as talented as he seemed from 2007 to 2009. Duh. He was doped to the gills man. You gotta look at the bigger picture to assess how talented a rider is. I'd say as a fan that Contador is fairly talented but not immensely talented. I do believe he is more talented than Froome though. Contador was winning races against pretty good opponents at the same age when Froome was riding in the gruppetto. So the gap between them now certainly indicates there's something going on (on both sides)

PS I don't really understand what you're saying

Edit: no idea what Contador's doing in a discussion about Froome's talent but I would never miss an opportunity to discuss Contador of course

 

[LaFlorecita]

Many clowns like Froome have gone from being pack fodder to winning grand tours. Do you think Sir Bjarne Riis was a good cyclist before he won the tour?

Lol....

Bjarne's performance on Hautacam was splendid and he definitely wasn't immensely talented.

 

[nickhalliwell]

Perhaps he's protected which would mean he can dope as much as he wants. Others have to be careful not to test positive.

See Richie Porte. In 2010 he was okay but not great, then in 2011 he was proper ****, then he joined sky and became one of the best climbers in the world. Holy fuxk. You're not going to tell me he didn't dope at Saxo are you?

Why would I... I said I think they are probably all doping. So I assume whatever saxo are doing in terms of doping is the same as sky and moovistar.
Your point that he may have a free pass is interesting but my question is why would he? Do you think sky have bribed the UCI significantly? Is possible but certaintly not froome as he has no were near the wealth of LA. Also if all of sky had a free pass id expect them to dominate to a greater extent and not look pretty poor in the final week of the tdf.
My only point is that froome is clearly a talented cyclist something lots of you seem to see as not the case.. yes his red blood cell count may be low and be getting boosted... but his height and weight as well as vo2 max cant be changed by doping too much and these are all key.
One of you earlier said that froome probably had a vo2 max less than what a normal gt rider would.... that seems a mad statement. As if it is an important factor in performance which I believe it to be then if frooome and the rest are all doping to a similair level.... which to me seems a fair assumption, then he would be getting beat simple as.
The only way that would not be the case is froome and only froome has a free pass to dope as much as he wants while no one else does..... that seems a crazy position to take. You could possibly make the case for that being so with sky... but then why no other good gt contendors at the tdf all it would have taken is froome to have a bad crash and there season would have been a massive failure.
The reason they probably didnt want to release the vo2 max is it would be too low for the results he got probs because hes doping... but i dont see other teams giving it up and the experts view was that the vo2 max needed for such a performance was unhumanely high so to say its probably really low seems illogical.

 

[frenchfry]

Contador is most definitely not as talented as he seemed from 2007 to 2009. Duh. He was doped to the gills man. You gotta look at the bigger picture to assess how talented a rider is. I'd say as a fan that Contador is fairly talented but not immensely talented. I do believe he is more talented than Froome though. Contador was winning races against pretty good opponents at the same age when Froome was riding in the gruppetto. So the gap between them now certainly indicates there's something going on (on both sides)

PS I don't really understand what you're saying

Edit: no idea what Contador's doing in a discussion about Froome's talent but I would never miss an opportunity to discuss Contador of course

very nice post

 

[nickhalliwell]

Contador is most definitely not as talented as he seemed from 2007 to 2009. Duh. He was doped to the gills man. You gotta look at the bigger picture to assess how talented a rider is. I'd say as a fan that Contador is fairly talented but not immensely talented. I do believe he is more talented than Froome though. Contador was winning races against pretty good opponents at the same age when Froome was riding in the gruppetto. So the gap between them now certainly indicates there's something going on (on both sides)

PS I don't really understand what you're saying

Edit: no idea what Contador's doing in a discussion about Froome's talent but I would never miss an opportunity to discuss Contador of course

What im saying is that its illogical to argue that tdf winners arent talented because they doped... especially when there are quite tight paramaters in which doping is allowed on the biopassport.
Lots of you saying hes a clown on the bike just makes you seem bias and stupid. To win the tdf requires talent and doping doesnt take away from that.

Riis is different as he was willing to put his hmg values dangerously high, probs more so thant the rest. As far as im aware the bio passport does not allow that kind of thing so being very risky does not seem a smart move.

 

[LaFlorecita]

What about Riis?

Was he very talented because he beat other doped riders?

No he just doped himself up until his blood was as thick as corn syrup.

Edit: this post is a reply to nickhalliwell's post further upthread

 

[the sceptic]

"Froome is clean because he won the tour which is something only talented riders can do which means he could do it clean" is the new Froome is clean?

 

[LaFlorecita]

What im saying is that its illogical to argue that tdf winners arent talented because they doped... especially when there are quite tight paramaters in which doping is allowed on the biopassport.
Lots of you saying hes a clown on the bike just makes you seem bias and stupid. To win the tdf requires talent and doping doesnt take away from that.

Riis is different as he was willing to put his hmg values dangerously high, probs more so thant the rest. As far as im aware the bio passport does not allow that kind of thing so being very risky does not seem a smart move.

Every professional bike racer is somewhat talented. However they can be way less talented than they seem. Nothing indicates to me Froome is much more talented than your average gc racer.

 

[LaFlorecita]

very nice post

Lol

.........

 

[BroDeal]

You clearly used the words "Forza Horner. Give those cheating Brits what for." You were delighted Horner won the Vuelta doping because you could happily further your agenda against Froome/Sky and British fans by starting that thread. Your delight was very evident.

Apparently you are too thick to figure out what the purpose of the "chris squared" thread was. I will have to spell it out for you. It was to mock the "clean cycling" argument that is espoused not just by Team Sky apologists but also the Garmin people and fans who are naive enough actually think the sport changed. Horner's performance was a giant middle finger stuck in the face of everyone who believes in such malarkey. Froome's performance two months before should have been enough but Horner made it even more clear. Evidently you are so overly sensitive that you cannot detect the snark in that thread's posts.

I do find it telling that you are too blind to see the parallel between rabid American Armstrong defenders of ten years ago and rapid British Sky defenders today.

 

[the sceptic]

Most odd Jimmy. I heard the working title is "Inside Chris Froome".

I for one am looking forward to see if its possible to top the level of delusion from this one. It will be hard, but I have faith Walsh can do it.

After that, he might have to write a book to explain how Porte won the giro.

Looks like I was wrong about the title.

Ben Brusey, editor at Viking, said: “Chris Froome is the future of cycling. His incredible victories this year have helped make cycling in Britain more popular than ever, and we are thrilled to be publishing his book in time for the start of the 2014 Tour in Yorkshire. His story is hugely inspirational and I know that it will be enjoyed by sports lovers as well as an even wider audience.”

The Climb by Chris Froome will be published in Viking hardback and ebook in June 2014. In July 2014 the Tour de France will have its opening stages in Yorkshire and London where millions of spectators are expected.

Looking forward to see Vickar explain how this doesnt mean Walsh is trying to cash in.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Apparently you are too thick to figure out what the purpose of the "chris squared" thread was. I will have to spell it out for you. It was to mock the "clean cycling" argument that is espoused not just by Team Sky apologists but also the Garmin people and fans who are naive enough actually think the sport changed. Horner's performance was a giant middle finger stuck in the face of everyone who believes in such malarkey. Froome's performance two months before should have been enough but Horner made it even more clear. Evidently you are so overly sensitive that you cannot detect the snark in that thread's posts.

I do find it telling that you are too blind to see the parallel between rabid American Armstrong defenders of ten years ago and rapid British Sky defenders today.

Come on BroDeal play nice

 

[nickhalliwell]

What about Riis?

Was he very talented because he beat other doped riders?

No he just doped himself up until his blood was as thick as corn syrup.

Edit: this post is a reply to nickhalliwell's post further upthread

Riis less so as he rode in an era were whoever was most mental ie willing to go to 60% hmg values could win. The doping tests dont stop doping but certaintly seem to restrict the disparities which teams can dope.... unless one teams more sophisticated than the rest which is possible.... however skys other riders results dont suggest this.
What makes you think froome is just an average gc rider? If its just early results that seems a but unfair may have been clean at that stage of his career. Its easy to trace every up turn in form as doping but there are other factors that influence good performances..... tbh making any claims about a riders natural talent is hard as we simply dont know. However if froome was on the same stuff as the rest of the gc contendors the way he rode the tdf was an incredible performance.
Some of the attacks were really exciting.... compared to wiggins he seems much more talented to me.
Considering we dont know who and who is not doping and to what extentm who to you looks really talented then?

 

[the sceptic]

Come on BroDeal play nice

Poor Bison. I can already see Vickers and Gooner furiously reporting that post.

I thought the brits were supposed to have a good sense of humor. Guess not.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Riis less so as he rode in an era were whoever was most mental ie willing to go to 60% hmg values could win. The doping tests dont stop doping but certaintly seem to restrict the disparities which teams can dope.... unless one teams more sophisticated than the rest which is possible.... however skys other riders results dont suggest this.
What makes you think froome is just an average gc rider? If its just early results that seems a but unfair may have been clean at that stage of his career. Its easy to trace every up turn in form as doping but there are other factors that influence good performances..... tbh making any claims about a riders natural talent is hard as we simply dont know. However if froome was on the same stuff as the rest of the gc contendors the way he rode the tdf was an incredible performance.
Some of the attacks were really exciting.... compared to wiggins he seems much more talented to me.
Considering we dont know who and who is not doping and to what extentm who to you looks really talented then?

You probably also see Cobo as a huge talent.

Sadly, there are currently no way of knowing who has "big race win" talent and who are just peloton fodder.

 

[BroDeal]

Come on BroDeal play nice

It is not my fault that he completely missed the point of that thread. Using the "Forza Horner" end line of posts, a line that was clearly facetious, as evidence of an agenda should be rather embarrassing.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Riis less so as he rode in an era were whoever was most mental ie willing to go to 60% hmg values could win. The doping tests dont stop doping but certaintly seem to restrict the disparities which teams can dope.... unless one teams more sophisticated than the rest which is possible.... however skys other riders results dont suggest this.

Can someone remind me what exactly did Ashenden say again wrt a small core of riders doping?

What makes you think froome is just an average gc rider?

Early results. Dodgy background story. Lots of vague explanations. Excuses everywhere to explain his sudden rise to the top of the cycling ladder.

tbh making any claims about a riders natural talent is hard as we simply dont know.

I agree somewhat

However if froome was on the same stuff as the rest of the gc contendors the way he rode the tdf was an incredible performance.

The extent to which that stuff is used is important.

Some of the attacks were really exciting.... compared to wiggins he seems much more talented to me.
Considering we dont know who and who is not doping and to what extentm who to you looks really talented then?

Exciting =/= talented.

Quintana looks really talented to me. Call me crazy but so does Chavanel. I would not be surprised though if both turn out to be dopers. I like to think Contador is talented but I am most likely very biased.

 

[LaFlorecita]

It is not my fault that he completely missed the point of that thread. Using the "Forza Horner" end line of posts, a line that was clearly facetious, as evidence of an agenda should be rather embarrassing.

I know but endless bickering isn't going to help

 

[nickhalliwell]

I agree strongly about quintanna and am really excited to see how him and froome match up.... strange your unsure if hes doping but not froome esp as his teams full of ex dopers.... and if one team dominated the tour was them or saxo....
Get what your saying about early results but considering he was on pretty rubbish teams in those periods is fair to assume he was on a poor programme. If sky wanted someone to be really good for pr and could make an average guy into something special I doubt they would choose froome... hardly the most marketable guy comes across as a bit dull of the bike.

Exciting doesnt equal talented but sprinting up a hill is pretty damb exciting and when you destroy the peleton in doing so is an indicator of some advantage. May be doing something better than the rest or may just be good no one will really no other than maybe his doctor.
Also can I ask why in other sports people are allowed to fluctuate in form and not cycling? I know new doping techniques can cause fluctuations but can so other facts;

 

[LaFlorecita]

Errr I am a bit confused

 

[Rollthedice]

You probably also see Cobo as a huge talent.

Sadly, there are currently no way of knowing who has "big race win" talent and who are just peloton fodder.

Compared to Froome he was huge before the two met in Vuelta. Anyway, since talent is brought into discussion it simply is beyond comprehension how a rider that hasn't shown any signs of greatness, I repeat not even a hint, can suddenly destroy the whole peloton. If some of the main contenders are still on the juice Froome's results seem even more ridiculous. He's now hitting the brakes when taking a turn on Ventoux.