Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

[simoni]

any independent journalist, in the absence of evidence, should say neither one nor the other.
#agnostic

and as i said, he could at the very least have written that disclaimer or something along those lines, yet he didn't.
hell, in that book he doesn't even try to look independent.

What else can he say? If you see someone doping once they're a doper. If you see someone not doping once it doesn't mean they don't. The negative is impossible to prove so all we're left with is Walsh's experience after spending time with the team. In his view, he's clean. Whether your views on Walsh lead you to agree is another matter. I've not read the book so don't know.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So is Kimmage a fanboy of Garmin?

PS. At that 2008 TdF where Kimmage saw nothing whilst embedded with Garmin, Millar's retics, which peaked early season at 1.2% (ignoring his off-season high of 1.8%) plummeted to 0.4%, while his Hb peaked at 15+ from an off-season low of 14+.

 

[Ferminal]

Still not enough to beat his average TT'er teammate in the last TT

Or were those values at the start? He was closer to Schumacher in the first TT.

 

[Benotti69]

if leinders is working with team sky show some evidence that it is so...or accept what team sky report

Not going to do that as they claimed they were going to be transparent and have steadfastly refused to do so, eg Froome's numbers.

like other personnel with doping past it appears that leinders is long gone

Is he? How do we know? We dont and to believe Sky is really a silly thing to do.

let walsh be a fanboy.............if doping was so obvious as you suggest the story would be 'out there' to a greater extent

So obvious? Jeez it has always been obvious, former gruppetto riders winning the TdF!!! Walsh can be a fanboy all he wants and if he declared it tomorrow then bingo this thread is over and Sky got to find someone else credible to shovel their ****e.

the 'saddle sores' is a catchy angle but clearly he was employed for more than that

Well Sky would have people believe that he did very little. So what is it? Saddle sores or ensuring riders doped and didn't get caught as was his position at Rabo.

which is what we still need to find out.............employed to work under instruction to ZTP or get results whatever?

It is amazing how Walsh is not interested in Leinders. Why has Walsh not talked to Thomas Dekker, Michaael Rasmussen or others to find out the real talents of Leinders? Because that might prove to be difficult for Sky.

Imagine the Sunday Times writing a double page spread about a doping doctor and his amazing ability in the doping department and that he worked for Sky for 2 years and when he joined Sky went from no where to GT podiums.

 

[gooner]

Is he? How do we know? We dont and to believe Sky is really a silly thing to do.

Why continue with this baseless speculation? It only gives the impression, you're looking for a story.

It is amazing how Walsh is not interested in Leinders. Why has Walsh not talked to Thomas Dekker, Michaael Rasmussen or others to find out the real talents of Leinders? Because that might prove to be difficult for Sky.

Imagine the Sunday Times writing a double page spread about a doping doctor and his amazing ability in the doping department and that he worked for Sky for 2 years and when he joined Sky went from no where to GT podiums.

Why not any journalist? You're basically implying to anyone who reads it that Leinders's introduction was responsible with Sky's leap in success(that's by no means certain), all while mentioning his previous past. Good luck with that getting through libel. The Sunday Times isn't the same as posting in the clinic. Plus, Walsh has written more than enough about his past.

You do seem to forget Wiggins came 4th with Garmin. Who was the mastermind behind this so?

 

[sniper]

Lets deal and keep it on what we have, not pure speculation.

that was benotti's point: stop speculating by suggesting leinders doesn't work for/with sky anymore.
we don't know, yet you pretend to know.

 

[sniper]

Hold on, you were responding to a quote which more or less said an "embedded journalist" is meaningless, which you agree with. Yet Kimmage gave a clean bill of health to Garmin on the back of it. Now tell me the difference in this specific area with Walsh and Sky. If you think it's meaningless, why haven't you criticised Kimmage so? Is he a fanboy too?

It's not a deflection and it's entirely relevant because it's a clear inconsistency regarding your judgement of one compared to the other.



Yet you accuse Walsh of doing that and hammering him for it.



Outside of his own experiences in the sport he hasn't exposed much. Nothing in relation to Lance for example which was more Walsh, Ressiot and Ballester.



It was telling to me about Hesjedal that his initial reaction was to bring up an old quote from Wiggins about Leinders than about Hesjedal/Garmin/JV.

That was telling. A big number of people on twitter noticed that at the time. Very interesting.

stop deflecting gooner.
i have an opinion of walsh irrespective of what kimmage may or may not be up to.
open a kimmage thread if you wish, and i'll contribute my thoughts there.

 

[gooner]

that was benotti's point: stop speculating by suggesting leinders doesn't work for/with sky anymore.
we don't know, yet you pretend to know.

The pot calling the kettle black. Coming from 2 guys who throw around innuendo and endless speculation of riders left, right and centre of doping.

I don't know where you got I was speculating from my statement "Lets deal and keep it on what we have".

 

[Benotti69]

Why continue with this baseless speculation? It only gives the impression, you're looking for a story.

It is hardly baseless, it fits well with the history of the sport. The culture of doping hasn't gone away.

Why not any journalist?

This is the Walsh thread

You're basically implying to anyone who reads it that Leinders's introduction was responsible with Sky's leap in success(that's by no means certain), all while mentioning his previous past. Good luck with that getting through libel. The Sunday Times isn't the same as posting in the clinic. Plus, Walsh has written more than enough about his past.

No, What i stated is that Walsh didn't talk to rabo/Leinder riders who were caught doping and therefore might be forthcoming about Leinder's ability as a doping doctor and therefore provide more information about what his speciality is in the realms of being a cycling doctor. But Walsh doesn't believe Sky are doping so why would he bother?

You do seem to forget Wiggins came 4th with Garmin. Who was the mastermind behind this so?

This is not the Garmin thread and no i dont believe Garmin are clean nor that Wigans rode that TdF on bread and water.

As for the mastermind behind that, Ferrari?

 

[gooner]

stop deflecting gooner.
i have an opinion of walsh irrespective of what kimmage may or may not be up to.
open a kimmage thread if you wish, and i'll contribute my thoughts there.

Address the inconsistency in judging one and not the other. It's entirely relevant to Walsh and Sky.

Why is it you call Walsh a fanboy by agreeing to a post which said an "embedded journalist" is meaningless, but never did the same with Kimmage who gave Garmin a pass after his time? This too from a journalist who in his Irish video diary during this year's Tour said this arrangement was a great way of showing transparency.

I mentioned a clear link with the topic of Walsh/Sky. You can choose to answer if you wish, I'm not really bothered if you don't but it's not deflecting on my part by pointing out what I feel is a clear inconsistency where you judge Walsh to a different criteria.

 

[Benotti69]

here is something Patrice Clerc said a year ago

"Armstrong is dead, may he rest in peace. But today, the system that enabled this needs to be dismantled. If it’s not taken apart, if we don’t identify what didn’t work, then cycling won’t get out of this. The system in which these practices thrived is still the same. The men are the same: from the rule makers to the financiers of the UCI, the team managers…”

Sky have flourished under a system that enabled the doping culture.

Walsh appears to have ignored this extremely important point about the sport.

The teams that existed prior to 'clean teams' arrival and are still here have not changed. So these teams with their doping cultures are being thrashed by Sky in the races that Sky have nominated as important, TdF and the prep races for the TdF.

 

[sniper]

I don't know where you got I was speculating.

here

Imagine Brailsford saying to Walsh come aboard with Leinders still there after the stuff about Leinders being said by de Rooy in 2012 and Rasmussen's accusations thereafter. Do you honestly think Walsh would have anything to do with a team that still had him on the payroll under this huge cloud?

you're suggesting leinders doesn't work with sky anymore.
that's speculation on your part.

 

[gooner]

It is hardly baseless, it fits well with the history of the sport. The culture of doping hasn't gone away.

Because of the culture doesn't mean there are grounds for it. That's just a too simplified of view to throw speculation around.

This is the Walsh thread

I'm interested in any good sports journalism, not Walsh specifically. The story is not about individual journalists, it's the sport irrespective of who writes the story.

No, What i stated is that Walsh didn't talk to rabo/Leinder riders who were caught doping and therefore might be forthcoming about Leinder's ability as a doping doctor and therefore provide more information about what his speciality is in the realms of being a cycling doctor. But Walsh doesn't believe Sky are doping so why would he bother?

We know what Rasmussen, de Rooy, and Nelissen have said.

I would be more interested to know did Sky know about Jan Koerts comments back in 2007 on Leinders.

This is not the Garmin thread and no i dont believe Garmin are clean nor that Wigans rode that TdF on bread and water.

As for the mastermind behind that, Ferrari?

You made it sound like his big transformation came at Sky with the introduction of Leinders.

 

[sniper]

Address the inconsistency in judging one and not the other. It's entirely relevant to Walsh and Sky.

Why is it you call Walsh a fanboy by agreeing to a post which said an "embedded journalist" is meaningless, but never did the same with Kimmage who gave Garmin a pass after his time? This too from a journalist who in his Irish video diary during this year's Tour said this arrangement was a great way of showing transparency.

I mentioned a clear link with the topic of Walsh/Sky.

there are almost 3000 posts in this thread containing crystal clear arguments as to why walsh appears to be on the bandwagon. you missed those?
kimmage has nothing to do with that.
your ongoing attempt to deflect away from walsh' fanboyism is heart-warming though.

 

[gooner]

here
you're suggesting leinders doesn't work with sky anymore.
that's speculation on your part.

Like Benotti, you give an impression of wanting a story.

 

[gooner]

there are almost 3000 posts in this thread containing crystal clear arguments as to why walsh appears to be on the bandwagon. you missed those?
kimmage has nothing to do with that.
your ongoing attempt to deflect away from walsh' fanboyism is heart-warming though.

You didn't answer.

Your inconsistency has been taken on board.

I notice you didn't say anything about people deflecting up thread when they brought up Kimmage's documentary into the discussion where they were looking forward to his opinions on Sky.

 

[romnom]

Address the inconsistency in judging one and not the other. It's entirely relevant to Walsh and Sky.

Why is it you call Walsh a fanboy by agreeing to a post which said an "embedded journalist" is meaningless, but never did the same with Kimmage who gave Garmin a pass after his time? This too from a journalist who in his Irish video diary during this year's Tour said this arrangement was a great way of showing transparency.

Is the background of Kimmage & Garmin similar to that of Walsh & Sky? I can't really remember how and why Kimmage ended up with Garmin but Sky getting Walsh on board always seemed to me like a direct response to the PR disaster they had build up to that point. It sort of feels like Walsh is being used as a shortcut to answer all the questions that people had long before they invited Walsh to join them.

 

[elduggo]

Address the inconsistency in judging one and not the other. It's entirely relevant to Walsh and Sky.

seeing as Sky permitted one to be embedded but pulled the plug on the other, after initially agreeing to having him embedded, Sky themselves would tend to disagree with you (or at least see great differences between the 2, contrary to what I understand you to be suggesting).

 

[RownhamHill]

here
you're suggesting leinders doesn't work with sky anymore.
that's speculation on your part.

Erm, he's not.

He's suggesting that Walsh, while embedded with the team at training camps and on the Grand Tours, didn't see Leinders working with Sky's 'A' team of riders. And that had he (Walsh) seen Leinders (or Ferrari for that matter) working with them (Sky), Gooner is speculating that he (Walsh) would have reported on that in less positive terms than Coyle managed when reporting about Armstrong getting his blood taken by Ferrari.

Of course, it's still possible that Leinders is working with Sky, but in a capacity that involves never attending the training camps or races or seeing the star riders in person at crucial periods in the season. And it's also possible that Walsh did see both Leinders and Ferrari mainlining EPO (and speedballs) into Froome's arm while he was out on a Tenerife training ride, but is choosing not to report on that in the book because he'd rather roll naked in a bed of 100 dollar bills with Michelle Cound, while cackling about how he and Dave Brailsford have fooled the world. But of course anything's possible.

Do try and keep up.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

It sort of feels like Walsh is being used as a shortcut to answer all the questions that people had long before they invited Walsh to join them.

Good post.

Yet so many questions unanswered.

 

[the sceptic]

This vortexing is stupid. Sky wouldnt invite Walsh if there was a chance he was going to find anything.

Invite an anti doping saint, treat him like a king and feed him a constant stream of bs, hope something sticks. This plan couldnt have worked out any better, Brailsford must be laughing his *** off reading this stuff.

 

[del1962]

Erm, he's not.

He's suggesting that Walsh, while embedded with the team at training camps and on the Grand Tours, didn't see Leinders working with Sky's 'A' team of riders. And that had he (Walsh) seen Leinders (or Ferrari for that matter) working with them (Sky), Gooner is speculating that he (Walsh) would have reported on that in less positive terms than Coyle managed when reporting about Armstrong getting his blood taken by Ferrari.

Of course, it's still possible that Leinders is working with Sky, but in a capacity that involves never attending the training camps or races or seeing the star riders in person at crucial periods in the season. And it's also possible that Walsh did see both Leinders and Ferrari mainlining EPO (and speedballs) into Froome's arm while he was out on a Tenerife training ride, but is choosing not to report on that in the book because he'd rather roll naked in a bed of 100 dollar bills with Michelle Cound, while cackling about how he and Dave Brailsford have fooled the world. But of course anything's possible.

Do try and keep up.

Best post of the entire thread

 

[thehog]

Good post.

Yet so many questions unanswered.

I really wanted Walsh to go into more of Kerrison's program. Walsh says he spent time at the training camps but we get nothing.

Therefore either Walsh was told not to write about it or it's fairly routine training (with a doping program attached).

To put it in perspective that Sky is doing nothing new;

Vaughters wrote a piece in Bicycling magazine in 2008 about his training from the early 2000's.

He talks of motopacing, skipping breakfast on 2nd day after long ride and vomit inducing intervals - 10 seconds / 20 seconds off to technicolor yawn.

http://www.bicycling.com/training-n...tter-_-Bicycling-_-Content-Story-_-don’t-ever

In a way that you can't achieve on your own, riding behind vehicles lets you simulate the speed and constant high-level power outputs of a race. Because there's no wind to tire you out, you can spin like a fiend at high speeds for miles and miles. When we analyze data from our team's power meters, we always find that the only workout that mimics a fast-moving peloton is motorpacing.

It's ridiculous how fast you can become by motorpacing a few times a month. It's best on a slight downhill that's nearly straight, with no stops and few connecting roads.

On day one, do a solid, intense group ride for three to five hours. Really pour your heart into the efforts and hills. When you get home, resist the normal and completely sane urge to ingest calories. Wait a few hours, then go ahead and eat as if you hadn't skipped refueling--have a light lunch or dinner or whatever. Just don't pile on tons of carbs.

On day two, get out of bed and consume zero calories before you hit the road. You can drink plain water, even black coffee, but nothing that has any caloric value. As soon as you're warmed up, take your pace up to about 5 percent less than the maximum effort you think you could hold for a solid hour--then ride it for an hour. The first 30 minutes aren't so bad, as your body burns through the last of the stored glycogen in your muscles, but once that's gone, your body has to find alternative sources of fuel--and that ends up being fat, protein, brain cells, whatever. It's excruciating.

I've kept this training method a closely guarded secret because it works so well. But one of the rare riders I entrusted pointed out that so few cyclists will actually be able to tolerate the workout that making it public won't matter.

I call this the On/Off Interval, or 10/20. After a 30 to 45-minute warm-up, find a flat stretch of road with no stops or traffic lights that takes you at least 10 minutes to ride. Then, very simply, ride 10 seconds in an all-out sprint, followed by 20 seconds of easy spinning--over and over. For 10 minutes. Each sprint must be at your max, and you can't coast during the 20-second rest, either; you have to keep spinning. For those of you with power meters, the 10-second "on" should be 600 to 1,000 watts, and the 20-second "off" about 150 to 200.

Instead of the steady power required for longer intervals, this workout causes your wattage to fluctuate, which simultaneously forces your body to deal with the stress of producing higher power outputs and raises your ventilatory rate much higher than would a steady effort. The short, frequent 20-second breaks allow you to clear lactic acid. You end up breathing a lot harder that you could ever manage with normal intervals, without quite as much muscle-damaging acidosis.

And eventually, you'll throw up

 

[Avoriaz]

Vaughters also says he kept his programme a closely guarded secret because it worked so well. I would do the same. Maybe so is Kerrison. Course Vaughters did also keep other stuff secret, I suppose, so it means nowt...

 

[sniper]

It sort of feels like Walsh is being used as a shortcut to answer all the questions that people had long before they invited Walsh to join them.

yes. and i said (or tried to say) the same a few days ago, albeit much less eloquently:

how exactly would he do that? what's the "all" in that "tell-all"?
sky they're not leaving needles in waste bins, not publicly mobbing fellow racers or journalists (well, wiggo came close), they're not ****ing off employers, not backdating tues, not betting on themselves, etc.
as some poster said some pages back, armstrong/usps were the paragon of red flags.
it's only logical to assume Sky have learnt from that. In any case, they are visibly doing as much as they can to minimize red flags. (In fact, i'd argue walsh has been hired to deal with the few red flags such as Leinders/JTL/froome-ET, and color them differently. Limited Hangout.)
So what tell-all could walsh have in mind? Also, walsh wasn't working for usps when he decided to take on armstrong. He is working for murdoch now though.

you're off the mark here, mark.