Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

[The Hitch]

If Bjarne Riis got up 2 hours earlier than everyone else, it was probably because he understood that sleeping an extra 2 hours with 60% hematocrit he would risk the blood clogging in his veins.

It is likely though that had 2013 Walsh been embeded with Bjarne he would have put it down to dedication.

Just like he ignores that training longer hours than everyone else is usually a result of doping, because doping allows for the body to recover and put out those extra efforts, whereas someone who is clean, if they train those same hours, no matter how talented they are, are actually causing themselves more harm than good.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

The most people saying "sky dope" are the usual grumpy rivals fans

There is no evidence of this. Till there is, you have no clue who most people saying "sky dope" are. Nor what their motives are.

 

[LaFlorecita]

The most people saying "sky dope" are the usual grumpy rivals fans, they say that not because they have evidences/etc , they say that because the feel good.

Can you give some examples? Which of Froome's rivals are BroDeal, Fearless Greg Lemond and bennoti fan of?

 

[maltiv]

Just like he ignores that training longer hours than everyone else is usually a result of doping, because doping allows for the body to recover and put out those extra efforts, whereas someone who is clean, if they train those same hours, no matter how talented they are, are actually causing themselves more harm than good.

Exactly. Which explains why the exact same training that made Froome and Porte fly made the other guys on the team useless. It seems as if Team Sky figured that they'd include less people in the "inner ring" this year to minimize the risk, but they seemingly didn't take into account how different the training should be for the clean guys.

Henao used Kerrison's "genious" training plans to peak for the Vuelta and ended up being in the worst shape he's ever been in as a professional rider...

 

[thehog]

Interesting that Dan Coyle's book War whereby he had similar access to Walsh of being embedded. Coyle spent 15 months in Girona and had some very close access even with Ferrari.

His conclusion was similar to Walsh as no proof of doping and this is despite it being right in front of Coyle's face.

What hope does Walsh have?

There is no denying the effort put into Tour de Force by Coyle. Not only did he uproot his family and move from Alaska to Girona for fifteen months just to get closer to his subject, but he also clocked up some seriously impressive mileage trailing Armstrong and his entourage as they prepared for the Tour. And then there’s the interviews. Tour de Force is built on interviews. Hours and hours of the things. Coyle has – admirably – put in a lot of leg-work and what value there is in Tour de Force is to be found in those interviews. Particularly the ones that contributed to Coyle’s portraits of the two other American riders Tour de Force is also about – Hamilton and Floyd Landis.

But no amount of leg-work can make up for Coyle’s setting aside of certain journalistic standards some consider sacrosanct. It’s bad enough that in order to get access to Armstrong’s camp you can’t be seen as being negative, but showing Armstrong and his people drafts of the book.

 

[sniper]

Bauke Mollema started cycling at 19 (IIRC) and won L'Avennir at 21.

good point.

 

[gooner]

Interesting that Dan Coyle's book War whereby he had similar access to Walsh of being embedded. Coyle spent 15 months in Girona and had some very close access even with Ferrari.

His conclusion was similar to Walsh as no proof of doping and this is despite it being right in front of Coyle's face.

What hope does Walsh have?

Coyle stands on the roadside in Girona, Spain, as Michele Ferrari, the shadowy fitness guru also known as Dr. Evil, *** Armstrong's finger and waits breathlessly for the "magic number" -- the lactate threshold that measures Armstrong's ability to produce sustained power -- to come up on a hand-held computer. ("In their mouths certain numbers were spoken with importance, as if they were the titles of great novels: Six point seven. Four point zero. Five hundred ten.")

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072001885.html

I wonder what Walsh would have made of spotting Ferrari around Sky in Tenerife or in Nice when he interviewed Froome?

A clean bill of health, maybe?

 

[thehog]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072001885.html

I wonder what Walsh would have made of spotting Ferrari around Sky in Tenerife or in Nice when he interviewed Froome?

A clean bill of health, maybe?

Even with Ferrari on site Coyle still saw nothing.

Along with 20 American cyclists in Girona doping their collective heads off.

So what's Walsh going to find?

Nothing as well.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072001885.html

I wonder what Walsh would have made of spotting Ferrari around Sky in Tenerife or in Nice when he interviewed Froome?

A clean bill of health, maybe?

Good point gooner.

Who does the lactate testing at Team Sky?

 

[gooner]

Even with Ferrari on site Coyle still saw nothing.

Do you think Walsh would have given a clean bill of health if he saw Ferrari in and around Sky?

Simple yes or no.

You'll see in the above extract, that Coyle said he didn't get full access. Walsh on RTE radio and Newstalk last week said he had no problems with this when he was asked about it.

So what's Walsh going to find?

Nothing as well.

That's fair enough but Walsh has admitted this could be a possibility.

Back in April.

I've really enjoyed my time with them, and from what I've seen I've got the impression that this team does not have a doping programme, in my view.

That isn't to say that some rider in the team maybe freelancing on an individual basis, or maybe more than one is behaving independently of the team, but it's not team organised.

http://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2013/04/24/david-walsh-interview2/

In the week before the Tour.

"They say they're clean. I've seen nothing to make me suspicious that they're telling a lie when they say they're clean, though that doesn't mean that things couldn't be happening behind my back.

"The conclusion I've come to given the time I've spent with them is that they certainly don't have an organized doping program within the team."

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/01/sport/cycling-armstrong-doping-walsh/

Just last month.

“Lots of things. The team he is in and the culture of the team. I spent about 10 weeks inside Team Sky and saw zero doping culture.

“I think Chris Froome is a bit of a freak. I hope that he is clean, but the fact that I believe it doesn’t mean he is.

http://www.iol.co.za/sport/cycling/the-man-who-brought-down-armstrong-1.1597511#.Upw3PlVX-pg

 

[sniper]

...

“I think Chris Froome is a bit of a freak. I hope that he is clean, but the fact that I believe it doesn’t mean he is.

he's basically admitting, "i believe he's clean, but i don't have any arguments let alone evidence to that extent". major fail for an independent journalist who took down lance.
anyway, it's an important disclaimer showing that he's not sure.
and one wonders why he didn't write such a simple disclaimer in his book.
#nobrainer

 

[elduggo]

Do you think Walsh would have given a clean bill of health if he saw Ferrari in and around Sky?

Simple yes or no.

assuming Walsh knows about Dr. Leinder's then yes.

 

[nomapnocompass]

I always thought Gerard Vroomen's comments about embedded reporting were interesting. He is quite outspoken about the doping he thinks went on at CSC yet also admits that despite being in and around the team hotels he never saw anything suspicious....

http://gerard.cc/2013/07/12/riis-pieces/

"I figured that by being a sponsor, I would see something either way. It’s not that I expected to be asked to hold the IV bag if doping was occurring, but thought I’d surely see something while staying in the team hotel from time to time. That was a bit naive, and I never saw anything; no suspicious behavior, no strange packages, no hurriedly closed doors, nothing. I guess hiding your illicit activities in plain sight in busy hotels isn’t that difficult."

 

[Avoriaz]

he's basically admitting, "i believe he's clean, but i don't have any arguments let alone evidence to that extent". major fail for an independent journalist who took down lance.
anyway, it's an important disclaimer showing that he's not sure.
and one wonders why he didn't write such a simple disclaimer in his book.
#nobrainer

Why is that a "major fail" and a #nobrainer?

It's an opinion and no different factually to someone saying "I believe he's dirty, but the fact that I believe doesn't mean he is." Would this be a major pass and a #genius?

 

[sniper]

Why is that a "major fail" and a #nobrainer?

It's an opinion and no different factually to someone saying "I believe he's dirty, but the fact that I believe doesn't mean he is." Would this be a major pass and a #genius?

any independent journalist, in the absence of evidence, should say neither one nor the other.
#agnostic

and as i said, he could at the very least have written that disclaimer or something along those lines, yet he didn't.
hell, in that book he doesn't even try to look independent.

 

[sniper]

I always thought Gerard Vroomen's comments about embedded reporting were interesting. He is quite outspoken about the doping he thinks went on at CSC yet also admits that despite being in and around the team hotels he never saw anything suspicious....

http://gerard.cc/2013/07/12/riis-pieces/

"I figured that by being a sponsor, I would see something either way. It’s not that I expected to be asked to hold the IV bag if doping was occurring, but thought I’d surely see something while staying in the team hotel from time to time. That was a bit naive, and I never saw anything; no suspicious behavior, no strange packages, no hurriedly closed doors, nothing. I guess hiding your illicit activities in plain sight in busy hotels isn’t that difficult."

interesting.
i'm still hoping for him to call out walsh' fanboyism.

 

[gooner]

interesting.
i'm still hoping for him to call out walsh' fanboyism.

So is Kimmage a fanboy of Garmin?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So is Kimmage a fanboy of Garmin?

2008 TdF Garmin? Quite possibly. But it's not like they were racking up the points though. No stage wins, only a couple of seconds and "believable" Vande Velde (4th) loses a single minute to "squeaky clean" Denis Menchov (3rd, Rabobank).

Considering Kimmage was about as popular as a saddle sore at the time, however, getting a gig embedded in any team at the TdF would have been a massive relief for him, IMO. With all the questionable bits and pieces that go along with befriending the pariah of the day.

I think Vroomen's recently documented realisation that being "embedded" doesn't actually avail any opportunities to see doping in action reveals the whole "embedded" proposition for what it really is: a PR gamble. Paying off nicely for those that are doing it. The pool for journos with sufficient clout, however, is pretty small.

I'd say the fandom goes both ways... http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vaughters-defends-kimmage-ahead-of-uci-case

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072001885.html

I wonder what Walsh would have made of spotting Ferrari around Sky in Tenerife or in Nice when he interviewed Froome?

A clean bill of health, maybe?

The current Walsh would've believed Brailsford when he explained to Walsh that Ferrari was just supply training plans, just like Walsh swallowed that mechanics working under a tarpaulin out of the rain contribute to Froome's ability to surpass doping climb records or that a dash of pineapple juice is that extra little 'je ne sais quoi oh so very special marginal gain' that the level of detail is applied Sky and no David, we never did a back ground check on Dr Leinders........

Those buying Sky are clean should get special plastic wristbands made.

 

[gooner]

The current Walsh would've believed Brailsford when he explained to Walsh that Ferrari was just supply training plans, just like Walsh swallowed that mechanics working under a tarpaulin out of the rain contribute to Froome's ability to surpass doping climb records or that a dash of pineapple juice is that extra little 'je ne sais quoi oh so very special marginal gain' that the level of detail is applied Sky and no David, we never did a back ground check on Dr Leinders........

Those buying Sky are clean should get special plastic wristbands made.

The ground checks are fair comment, I've said de Jongh should be approached about his role in hiring Leinders and did he tell them about his past with Rabo. That's something Walsh or any journalist should be looking at.

I disagree on Ferrari because like back then with Coyle, Ferrari's rep and name was well known before that. Imagine Brailsford saying to Walsh come aboard with Leinders still there after the stuff about Leinders being said by de Rooy in 2012 and Rasmussen's accusations thereafter. Do you honestly think Walsh would have anything to do with a team that still had him on the payroll under this huge cloud?

Just to make it clear once again, I still don't think Leinders is a Ferrari even though he should be out of the sport. Some do try to put them on a par.

 

[Benotti69]

The ground checks are fair comment, I've said de Jongh should be approached about his role in hiring Leinders and did he tell them about his past with Rabo. That's something Walsh or any journalist should be looking at.

I disagree on Ferrari because like back then with Coyle, Ferrari's rep and name was well known back then before that. Imagine Brailsford saying to Walsh come aboard with Leinders still there and the stuff about Leinders being said by de Rooy in 2012 and Rasmussen's accusations thereafter. Do you honestly think Walsh would have anything to do with a team that still had him on the payroll under this huge cloud?

Just to make it clear once again, I still don't think Leinders is a Ferrari even though he should be out of the sport. Some do try to put them on a par.

How do we know Leinders is still not working with Sky? He worked for 2 years and Walsh accepts it was for saddle sores, yet certain Sky riders are able to train for an extra 2 hours. Vroomen says he never saw anything to do with doping on the teams he sponsored and commented how easy it must be to dope in team hotels.

Walsh cant see the wood for the trees. i heard his interview on off the ball. He talked bollix, pure fanboy bollix. His reasoning for sky being clean was laughable at best, given what we know about the professional sport of cycling.

Why Walsh has taken this approach to Sky, no doubt we will find out at some time in the future, but it is sad to see such acceptance of a team that is obviously doping?

Walsh did not address the testing at all and if he did he would've no doubt came to conclusion that it is a joke and that the culture of doping has not stopped because the testing will catch dopers!

 

[sniper]

So is Kimmage a fanboy of Garmin?

whether kimmage is or isn't has no bearing on walsh.
though the question in itself is a relevant one, it's not relevant to this thread.
that you continuously play the kimmage card seems like a weak effort to deflect.

2008 TdF Garmin? Quite possibly. But it's not like they were racking up the points though. No stage wins, only a couple of seconds and "believable" Vande Velde (4th) loses a single minute to "squeaky clean" Denis Menchov (3rd, Rabobank).

Considering Kimmage was about as popular as a saddle sore at the time, however, getting a gig embedded in any team at the TdF would have been a massive relief for him, IMO. With all the questionable bits and pieces that go along with befriending the pariah of the day.

I think Vroomen's recently documented realisation that being "embedded" doesn't actually avail any opportunities to see doping in action reveals the whole "embedded" proposition for what it really is: a PR gamble. Paying off nicely for those that are doing it. The pool for journos with sufficient clout, however, is pretty small.

I'd say the fandom goes both ways... http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vaughters-defends-kimmage-ahead-of-uci-case

that's been pretty much my assessment as well.

of course we must wait and see how kimmage develops. he has a job now, and won't be eager to get himself into new shoot-offs with the likes of brailsford.
wrt garmin/hesjedal/martin, i hope kimmage stays alert (i've expressed my concerns in this respect before), but i don't expect him to go digging for doping stories now.

as dearwiggo also seems to suggest, i can imagine if to some extent paul feels he owes vaughters, who indeed supported paul in times when the rest of the peloton was eager to throw him under the bus literally.
From that angle, it's not really surprising to see kimmage has been pretty quiet on the hesjedal issue, for instance.
In any case, i'm fully confident we won't see any fanboyship from kimmage comparable to walsh' sky-crush.
Paul won't be writing a piece "why i believe in hesjedal" larded with BS arguments.

 

[gooner]

whether kimmage is or isn't has no bearing on walsh.
though the question in itself is a relevant one, it's not relevant to this thread.
that you continuously play the kimmage card seems like a weak effort to deflect.

Hold on, you were responding to a quote which more or less said an "embedded journalist" is meaningless, which you agree with. Yet Kimmage gave a clean bill of health to Garmin on the back of it. Now tell me the difference in this specific area with Walsh and Sky. If you think it's meaningless, why haven't you criticised Kimmage so? Is he a fanboy too?

It's not a deflection and it's entirely relevant because it's a clear inconsistency regarding your judgement of one compared to the other.

that's been pretty much my assessment as well.

of course we must wait and see how kimmage develops. he has a job now, and won't be eager to get himself into new shoot-offs with the likes of brailsford.

Yet you accuse Walsh of doing that and hammering him for it.

wrt garmin/hesjedal/martin, i hope kimmage stays alert (i've expressed my concerns in this respect before), but i don't expect him to go digging for doping stories now.

Outside of his own experiences in the sport he hasn't exposed much. Nothing in relation to Lance for example which was more Walsh, Ressiot and Ballester.

From that angle, it's not really surprising to see kimmage has been pretty quiet on the hesjedal issue, for instance.

It was telling to me about Hesjedal that his initial reaction was to bring up an old quote from Wiggins about Leinders than about Hesjedal/Garmin/JV.

That was telling. A big number of people on twitter noticed that at the time. Very interesting.

 

[ebandit]

blah blah blah

How do we know Leinders is still not working with Sky? He worked for 2 years and Walsh accepts it was for saddle sores, .

Walsh talked bollix, pure fanboy bollix.

Why Walsh has taken this approach to Sky, no doubt we will find out at some time in the future, but it is sad to see such acceptance of a team that is obviously doping?

if leinders is working with team sky show some evidence that it is so...or accept what team sky report

like other personnel with doping past it appears that leinders is long gone

let walsh be a fanboy.............if doping was so obvious as you suggest the story would be 'out there' to a greater extent

the 'saddle sores' is a catchy angle but clearly he was employed for more than that

which is what we still need to find out.............employed to work under instruction to ZTP or get results whatever?

Mark L

 

[gooner]

How do we know Leinders is still not working with Sky?

Lets deal and keep it on what we have, not pure speculation.