Isaac Del Toro thread

[Extinction]

He lead on Finestre for some time but to no effect. Yates was way too strong uphill today and had Wout by his side. 2nd was really the best Del Toro could get.

When did he lead on Finestre "for a long time"? Only once did he try to chase Yates down.

 

[Extinction]

If del Toro gave his all today and cracked like an egg it would have been a much better look than seeing him rolling around and just giving up.

Agreed, he should have spit up his soul to try and save the Giro.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

When did he lead on Finestre "for a long time"? Only once did he try to chase Yates down.

I said "for some time" but yeah he should've pulled more when Yates was 1+ minutes ahead.

 

[SafeBet]

Many mistakes were made. Letting WVA in the break was certainly one of them.
To me the biggest one was probably follow Carapaz from the bottom of Finestre. In hindsight that cost both of them in the long run. He should have probably stayed with his team for a few more km.

Nevertheless I don't think he could have climbed Finestre much faster than this. This was a masterpiece by Visma and especially Simon Yates.

 

[Rou]

He should learn to trust himself more and not listen blindly to the car. They probably told him to just watch for Carapaz and that they will close Yates after the top. They underestimated the situation and in the end look like amateurs.

 

[Red Rick]

So now everyone criticizing a 21y/o.

He gave everything. Felt that he couldn’t get closer and ended up 2nd. Not a bad first GT as a “leader”. Expected him to drop harder and was still with Carapaz as 2nd best. Yates was just a level above today, nothing to be ashamed of.

Impressive 3 weeks Isaac.

I don't know if you watched Sestriere.

He clearly did not give everything and that's why people are criticizing him. Including me.

 

[Urbi27]

When they started decending it was 1'40 and he wasn't look like someone without energy. Strange for me, hard to understand why not going full gas especially on the downhill.

 

[Red Rick]

Many mistakes were made. Letting WVA in the break was certainly one of them.
To me the biggest one was probably follow Carapaz from the bottom of Finestre. In hindsight that cost both of them in the long run. He should have probably stayed with his team for a few more km.

Nevertheless I don't think he could have climbed Finestre much faster than this. This was a masterpiece by Visma and especially Simon Yates.

Steep climb with maybe 3% drafting max which everyone knows is about an hour long and thus a perfect FTP test.

Why cyclists will start that a a bajillion W/kg I will never understand. Maybe I'm not enough cyclist.

 

[Red Rick]

Del toro gave his all on Finestre, he is not pogi or vinge yet, he was a domestique like 10 days ago. Carapaz and uae are the loser of the day, del Toro in a way won today.

Carapaz is a Giro winner. He gave up 2nd today. Not pulling after the top was GTO. I commend him for that.

I will laugh at anyone who says Carapaz is the main loser today.

 

[AlfaLum]

Many mistakes were made. Letting WVA in the break was certainly one of them.
To me the biggest one was probably follow Carapaz from the bottom of Finestre. In hindsight that cost both of them in the long run. He should have probably stayed with his team for a few more km.

Nevertheless I don't think he could have climbed Finestre much faster than this. This was a masterpiece by Visma and especially Simon Yates.

My eyes as well as Carapaz his interview seen to indicate that he could. And he should have.

 

[SafeBet]

Carapaz is a Giro winner. He gave up 2nd today. Not pulling after the top was GTO. I commend him for that.

I will laugh at anyone who says Carapaz is the main loser today.

I wouldn't say he's the biggest loser, but I don't see many scenarios where Del Toro wins this Giro. With Caparaz I'm not that sure considering how strong he had looked on long climbs so far in the Giro.

But yeah, I agree he had no reason to pull after cresting Finestre.

 

[Red Rick]

I wouldn't say he's the biggest loser, but I don't see many scenarios where Del Toro wins this Giro. With Caparaz I'm not that sure considering how strong he had looked on long climbs so far in the Giro.

But yeah, I agree he had no reason to pull after cresting Finestre.

It's a bit stuck between a rock and a hard place, but I think you have to give some pulls and show some good wil to limit the damage.

Overall it looks like UAE somewhat expected to lose today.

 

[P4rthen0n]

Absolute choke job from UAE today. There are no excuses.

As for Del Toro, yes he's very young, and he wasn't expected to get a podium spot at the start of the Giro, but come on! Since you're here already, why not give it 100%? Why not leave it all on the road?
How are you gonna lose a GT because of group 2 shenanigans?

Del Toro absolutely should have collaborated with Carapaz on the Finestre and pushed hard on the downhill.
If you blow, you blow
If you don't get 2nd, you get 3rd. Who cares...

He will regret this.

 

[Extinction]

I said "for some time" but yeah he should've pulled more when Yates was 1+ minutes ahead.

I can't understand Carapaz attacking from so early on Finestre. Did he and team think he'd actually ride away the whole climb? Shooting bullets like that, with so many kms to go, was foolish. It shows too he and EF had no regard for Yates and with Van Aert up the road. How stupid. Then Del Toro didn't seem to care when his Giro was slipping from his grasp. He stayed with Catapaz, when he should have died trying to catch Yates. Unvelievable.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

. Yates was just a level above today, nothing to be ashamed of.

i think this is way to simple thinking. Yates rode more or less his own tempo the whole way, except of his attack (but there clearly the other two also looked most at each other). That’s clearly the most effective way of riding a 1 hour long and steep climb like this.

Carapaz and Del Toro attacked the early slopes like mad men and continued to attack and stop more or less during the entire climb. That is a very ineffective way of riding, and I think it’s pretty obvious that it would be possible for Carapaz and De Toro to be much faster up the climb if they rode it not against each other. I think Del Toro would’ve been MUCH faster to the top if he didn’t respond to the first attack, used his team and then rode more steady paced to the front.

 

[Links2003]

I have never seen anything like today. I still don't understand what happened today. Yates was strong, Visma had a great plan. But del Toro was able to counter every attack from Carapaz immediately. But he never tried to chase Yates. Of course, he didn't have to immediately, because his gap was bigger. But as a spectator you never got the impression that he tried to keep up the pace himself. He was lucky that Carapaz did it often and Gee did it again and again. But Del Toro didn't look completely finished. In the end, he put in another incredible sprint. Of course, it's possible that he was afraid that Carapaz would hang around when he was working himself.
But it's the penultimate day of the Giro. You can win a GT. Then I'll at least give it a try, won't I? Better to go down with flags flying than what we saw today. Of course it can still go down to 3rd place. But it could also have been 1st place.
Especially downhill, which he's great at. He didn't even let it roll there. Never seen anything like it.

What remains: he rode an outstanding Giro. The first 2 weeks almost without team support. Even the team probably didn't even have him as number 2 in their own team. Plus the stage win. But today leaves a lot of question marks.

 

[Extinction]

i think this is way to simple thinking. Yates rode more or less his own tempo the whole way, except of his attack (but there clearly the other two also looked most at each other). That’s clearly the most effective way of riding a 1 hour long and steep climb like this.

Carapaz and Del Toro attacked the early slopes like mad men and continued to attack and stop more or less during the entire climb. That is a very ineffective way of riding, and I think it’s pretty obvious that it would be possible for Carapaz and De Toro to be much faster up the climb if they rode it not against each other. I think Del Toro would’ve been MUCH faster to the top if he didn’t respond to the first attack, used his team and then rode more steady paced to the front.

Totally agree. Finestre is a climb of attrition, which is why it baffles the mind why Carapaz attacked so early and why Del Toro followed. UAE should have allowed Carapaz to stew himself and then Del Toro attacks on the sterrato.

 

[fenns]

Absolute choke job from UAE today. There are no excuses.

As for Del Toro, yes he's very young, and he wasn't expected to get a podium spot at the start of the Giro, but come on! Since you're here already, why not give it 100%? Why not leave it all on the road?
How are you gonna lose a GT because of group 2 shenanigans?

Del Toro absolutely should have collaborated with Carapaz on the Finestre and pushed hard on the downhill.
If you blow, you blow
If you don't get 2nd, you get 3rd. Who cares...

He will regret this.

yeah you at least need to be able to come away and say I did the best I could - IDT can't say that

 

[Rou]

The best thing for del Toro will be to ride many races with Pogacar. It will help him build confidence. He has the athletic ability to be a great cyclist but is still too young and needs confidence.

 

[Extinction]

yeah you at least need to be able to come away and say I did the best I could - IDT can't say that

Although Del Toro could be on the limit even when he seems not to be. Otherwise surely he would have tried harder to get up to Yates.

 

[Red Rick]

I can't understand Carapaz attacking from so early on Finestre. Did he and team think he'd actually ride away the whole climb? Shooting bullets like that, with so many kms to go, was foolish. It shows too he and EF had no regard for Yates and with Van Aert up the road. How stupid. Then Del Toro didn't seem to care when his Giro was slipping from his grasp. He stayed with Catapaz, when he should of died trying to catch Yates. Unvelievable.

I agree.

It also should be a one of the scenarios UAE predicts may happen, and they should 100% tell Del Toro that in that case, stick to 6.1 W/kg or something. And in that case domestiques should be able to do that wattage.

Now they probably went 7 W/kg or something outrageous.

 

[Rou]

I agree.

It also should be a one of the scenarios UAE predicts may happen, and they should 100% tell Del Toro that in that case, stick to 6.1 W/kg or something. And in that case domestiques should be able to do that wattage.

Now they probably went 7 W/kg or something outrageous.

Rick, are you ready to detract your statement that del Toro can't perform on long climbs?

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

Carapaz went early, but Del Toro is almost forced to follow then. If he doesn't, what happens? He's in the second group, Majka and co pull him up, but Carapaz is now 30" ahead. Now 40". Majka as amazing he is, considering how long he's been around, can't keep Carapaz within easily catchable distance. So ok, Simon Yates goes, then Del Toro follows. Yates will not pull him up. Etc etc. In front Carapaz can just ride his tempo, in the back Del Toro is in a similar situation to the front, people don't want to pull him up... he doesn't follow he risks losing the Giro then and there.

At some point Del Toro should have taken the risk and ride. And no, this I don't blame on UAE, he has to be able to make his own decisions. Yes, he goes, Carapaz attacks him again very soon, that's the risk. Better fight and lose than lose without fighting.

After the Finestre was embarrassing. Ok, he might have been completely empty, still.. he wasn't going to lose 40" and second place to Carapaz, rosa was most likely gone, but still, try, fight, maybe Simon gets a flat, whatever. Just try.

UAE is of course to blame for letting Van Aert up there. But IMO not for the way Del Toro then rode. Keep Carapaz wheel ok, even if that was the order, he has to realize that it's slipping away.

The sprint at the end then was just an insult to cycling fans, if you don't have the common sense to fight till the end, at least spare us the sorry sight of that sprint!

 

[jmdirt]

I wonder if his legs weren't great?

2nd on GC is a great result for a young guy who came into the race as a dom!

 

[Red Rick]

Rick, are you ready to detract your statement that del Toro can't perform on long climbs?

Yes and no.

He was clearly better than I expected based on Mortirolo and San Valentino. But if the claim was "he's clearly the best in this Giro" then he clearly failed that.

I think he was a tiny bit weaker than Carapaz today. Carapaz did more work and sat in front of him behind Gee, so he was always saving a tiny bit more, but the gap wasn't enough to get dropped today.

I don't think he was that good that he's automatically a future GT winner. But I will retract my "heavy discount Alaphilippe" position.