Isaac Del Toro thread

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Rick, are you ready to detract your statement that del Toro can't perform on long climbs?

Obviously he was suffering so bad that his brain shut down

 

[ice&fire]

This is it, Del Toro was afraid to lose the race to Carapaz in the final climb to Sestriere, but not to Yates. Totally rational and smart.

 

[Rou]

Yes and no.

He was clearly better than I expected based on Mortirolo and San Valentino. But if the claim was "he's clearly the best in this Giro" then he clearly failed that.

I think he was a tiny bit weaker than Carapaz today. Carapaz did more work and sat in front of him behind Gee, so he was always saving a tiny bit more, but the gap wasn't enough to get dropped today.

I don't think he was that good that he's automatically a future GT winner. But I will retract my "heavy discount Alaphilippe" position.

I agree that Richard was probably stronger than him today. But IMO del Toro is GT winner material. He is 21 and is pushing higher numbers than Pogacar at that age and is also clearly better than Ayuso. I think he has a very high ceiling.

 

[Extinction]

Carapaz went early, but Del Toro is almost forced to follow then. If he doesn't, what happens? He's in the second group, Majka and co pull him up, but Carapaz is now 30" ahead. Now 40". Majka as amazing he is, considering how long he's been around, can't keep Carapaz within easily catchable distance. So ok, Simon Yates goes, then Del Toro follows. Yates will not pull him up. Etc etc. In front Carapaz can just ride his tempo, in the back Del Toro is in a similar situation to the front, people don't want to pull him up... he doesn't follow he risks losing the Giro then and there.

At some point Del Toro should have taken the risk and ride. And no, this I don't blame on UAE, he has to be able to make his own decisions. Yes, he goes, Carapaz attacks him again very soon, that's the risk. Better fight and lose than lose without fighting.

After the Finestre was embarrassing. Ok, he might have been completely empty, still.. he wasn't going to lose 40" and second place to Carapaz, rosa was most likely gone, but still, try, fight, maybe Simon gets a flat, whatever. Just try.

UAE is of course to blame for letting Van Aert up there. But IMO not for the way Del Toro then rode. Keep Carapaz wheel ok, even if that was the order, he has to realize that it's slipping away.

The sprint at the end then was just an insult to cycling fans, if you don't have the common sense to fight till the end, at least spare us the sorry sight of that sprint!

But when Catapaz attacked at the beginning, Del Toro had teammates, Yates and Gee to keep a high pace and let Carapaz fry himself. History shows the best time to shoot bullets on Finestre is entering the sterrato. Even if Carapaz was 30 secs ahead, he would have started to slow and that's when Del Toro should have gone full gas. In any case, chapeau to Yates. He was super.

 

[solo80k]

I agree that Richard was probably stronger than him today. But IMO del Toro is GT winner material. He is 21 and is pushing higher numbers than Pogacar at that age and is also clearly better than Ayuso. I think he has a very high ceiling.

I don't believe this. He's a talented rouler but this Giro field was quite weak and route wasn't as hard until the last week. I rate him as the contender for one week races (TA/CdD/TdR/TdS) but I don't think he'll be able to win a GT unless that's a really weak field and a non demanding route once more.

 

[Oldman]

This is it, Del Toro was afraid to lose the race to Carapaz in the final climb to Sestriere, but not to Yates. Totally rational and smart.

Sounds like a little too much youthful hubris after fighting with Carapaz for a week. It'll sink in in the months/years to come how hard it is to get as close to the win as he did. He's known factor, now and he probably has at least one teammate happy he cracked. It's going to be a fresh start for him to regain the confidence from his team (largely to blame) and get the opportunities from the peloton to attack. Always harder the second time.

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

But when Catapaz attacked at the beginning, Del Toro had teammates, Yates and Gee to keep a high pace and let Carapaz fry himself. History shows the best time to shoot bullets on Finestre is entering the sterrato. Even if Carapaz was 30 secs ahead, he would have started to slow and that's when Del Toro should have gone full gas. In any case, chapeau to Yates. He was super.

Carapaz wasn't going to fry himself, once alone he rides his tempo and has over 1' to Majka once the sterrato starts. And Del Toro comes nowhere close anymore. Gee and Yates? They will not pull him up, Yates attacks, if Del Toro follows.. he lets him ride. Gee will ride his tempo, while keeping a bit. See how the advantage went out when they sat behind him. While he rode a good tempo, he most likely wasn't giving 100% but only 90% as well, having the 2 others in his wheel.

 

[Stubb]

Carapaz is a Giro winner. He gave up 2nd today. Not pulling after the top was GTO. I commend him for that.

I will laugh at anyone who says Carapaz is the main loser today.

Well he lost, didn't he? If del Toro start pulling during Finestre Carapaz wins the giro, after Finestre it was useless. Del Toro rode for the podium and a new contract being a 21 former domestique, Carapaz launched a suicide attack and it backfired being a 30 plus probably last call for a win former gt winner.

 

[YellowSocks]

This is it, Del Toro was afraid to lose the race to Carapaz in the final climb to Sestriere, but not to Yates. Totally rational and smart.

UAE should hire someone with a brain.

 

[Extinction]

This is it, Del Toro was afraid to lose the race to Carapaz in the final climb to Sestriere, but not to Yates. Totally rational and smart.

Well, Carapaz was right to tell Del Toro he wouldn't work, when Del Toro didn't work with Carapaz when he closed to 20 secs on Yates. There is where Del Toro lost the Giro and even if Isaac would have exploded trying to close on Yates, I think he would have received admiration for at least trying to save his Giro, instead of thinking to not also lose second.

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

Well he lost, didn't he? If del Toro start pulling during Finestre Carapaz wins the giro, after Finestre it was useless. Del Toro rode for the podium and a new contract being a 21 former domestique, Carapaz launched a suicide attack and it backfired being a 30 plus probably last call for a win former gt winner.

Actually no, Carapaz didn't lose. He just didn't win.
The one that lost was Del Toro, he was the only one that had something to lose.

 

[Stubb]

Actually no, Carapaz didn't lose. He just didn't win.
The one that lost was Del Toro, he was the only one that had something to lose.

I mean, a new contract and the youngest giro podium finisher since the forties, all starting in a domestique role, is not losing. Some people maybe tought the young mexican was the new pogi or something but maybe he is just a good rider who had shoes bigger than him to fill adn somehow didn't really failed at it. I'm happy for the guy and a bit surprised for the criticism he's receiving.

 

[Red Rick]

I mean, a new contract and the youngest giro podium finisher since the forties, all starting in a domestique role, is not losing. Some people maybe tought the young mexican was the new pogi or something but maybe he is just a good rider who had shoes bigger than him to fill adn somehow didn't really failed at it. I'm happy for the guy and a bit surprised for the criticism he's receiving.

Going into the final mountain stage with the leaders jersey, and then losing 5 minutes to the #3 in GC and thus shipping away the leaders jersey is basically the very definition of losing.

 

[Escarabajo]

Bad day for him. Sad. Made it worse with that pathetic sprint at the end. He still looked mad at the end. Mad at who?????

 

[nightowl]

Del Toro did not look like someone who was able to set a higher pace on Finestre. He was dropping and clawing his way back the whole way up. The one serious time he tried to pace they immediately started losing time and Carapaz surged past him.

His only hope of winning was if Carapaz cooperated after Finestre, so I don’t really buy that he threw the victory away. They would’ve lost minutes to Van Aert in the valley.

To me it seems like Carapaz was not as strong as he thought he would be and was frustrated that Yates was getting away and he couldn’t drop Del Toro. Then he was banking on Del Toro trying to catch Yates up to Sestrière so he could take advantage.

Once Carapaz indicated he wasn’t going to pull, it looks like Del Toro resigned himself to second and wasn’t going to let Carapaz take that from him, which is when the arguments started.

Now UAE could’ve prevented this situation by ensuring Van Aert wasn’t able to get over Finestre…they made their path to victory much more difficult once they let him have 10 minutes.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

This is it, Del Toro was afraid to lose the race to Carapaz in the final climb to Sestriere, but not to Yates. Totally rational and smart.

Incredible mature attitude, dude.

 

[Stubb]

Going into the final mountain stage with the leaders jersey, and then losing 5 minutes to the #3 in GC and thus shipping away the leaders jersey is basically the very definition of losing.

Or, saving a podium place in your first grand tour which you started as a domestique. You seem so sure he could have won this by being smarter or bolder but think where the guy started this and you'll see why he was smiling at the end.

 

[Froome]

I agree that Richard was probably stronger than him today. But IMO del Toro is GT winner material. He is 21 and is pushing higher numbers than Pogacar at that age and is also clearly better than Ayuso. I think he has a very high ceiling.

Del toro is not even close from Pogacar. Not even in mentality as we saw today. I don’t like pogacar not even a bit, but he is not a coward in terms of racing.

Pogacar won the Tour when he was 21. The numbers are relative. Due to clinic things, everybody is doing better numbers year after year.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Still a fan and believer. Second is a great result and he proved he can do it all. I believe he also broke the Finestre record and was 3 minutes faster than Froome in 2018 and Contador in 2015, despite it being stage 19 of a long, tough Giro. But the way he lost was very tough

 

[Peyroteo94]

Del toro is not even close from Pogacar. Not even in mentality as we saw today. I don’t like pogacar not even a bit, but he is not a coward in terms of racing.

Pogacar won the Tour when he was 21. The numbers are relative. Due to clinic things, everybody is doing better numbers year after year.

Wow, is that you or you got hacked?

 

[Rou]

Del toro is not even close from Pogacar. Not even in mentality as we saw today. I don’t like pogacar not even a bit, but he is not a coward in terms of racing.

Pogacar won the Tour when he was 21. The numbers are relative. Due to clinic things, everybody is doing better numbers year after year.

I was talking about Pogacar from the Vuelta 2019 not the Tour 2020. I agree that the mentality is different. Pogacar in that Vuelta went balls to the wall on stage 20.

 

[Kwaremonster]

I really like this guy. We shouldn't compare him with pogi yet, but he will get better and could very well become the best in a tier below pogi and Vingegaard. But that's not what I like about him. Its more the attacks, the mistakes, the youthful arrogance at times, I prefer that a million times over watching someone like Derek Gee diesel his way to a good GC (with all due respect to his great riding).

 

[Peyroteo94]

I hope these comparisons with Pogacar are just a meme. Like when we create a thread with "rider X is the new Merckx".

 

[Cycling111]

I agree that Richard was probably stronger than him today. But IMO del Toro is GT winner material. He is 21 and is pushing higher numbers than Pogacar at that age and is also clearly better than Ayuso. I think he has a very high ceiling.

Simon had better numbers today than Froome in 2018. It makes no sense to compare numbers at Pogacar's age when the numbers improve year after year.
Landa had better numbers than Contador, Armstrong, and Pantani in the last Tour. Landa isn't better than them.

 

[AlfaLum]

Still very disappointed with the way he rode today. Yes, he is still Young, and yes he will probably get other chances. But you never know for sure.

And now he has lost a grand Tour without really fighting for the win due to a tactical situation. When he had sat on the wheel of Carapaz for quite some time it was up to him to fight for it. And he never did.