• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team. Thanks!

IT'S OFFICIAL: Contador is Astana's leader

Page 3 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Mar 18, 2009
2,442
0
0
Visit site
The GCW said:
I could be wrong, but I think Lance endured a lot of pain in overcoming cancer. More pain than most people experience. I believe that a person who endures a lot of physical pain may have the ability to ignore or endure pain a little better.

It is reasonable to think a person who can ignore pain better than another person has an advantage in cycling.

Unfortunately, you are wrong. People suffering from chronic pain are then sensitized to pain rather than being better able to cope with pain. This sensitization results in them being more prone to experiencing pain with sensations that do not typically result in pain in normal people, such as brushing against your arm. There are a number of factors involved and the reasons are very complex involving chemicals or factors from the skin to peripheral nerves to the spinal cord and the brain. But, bottom line, Lance and any other cancer sufferer is no more tolerant of pain than any other person and, if they have suffered chronic pain, then their tolerance of pain will be less than normal people.
 
BroDeal & elapid,

BroDeal,

I honestly don't know. It just seems like someone who endured pain has a tolorance.

You may have experience with this subject and may know better but for people that do not have experience with this subject You might understand how a person would think such a thing.

elapid,

Thanks for Your explaination & input.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Epicycle said:
The Kazakh Federation guy Proskurin says the sponsors still owe 8 million euros. They have 8 days to pay up. He says the Kazakhs are talking with a possible new sponsor, an American company who does business in Kazakhstan.

ok.. so an american company in khazakstan.. heres the list of american chamber of commerce companies...

anything suitable..
http://www.amcham.kz/membership

fedex? HP?

how about avon.. :D
 
Jun 4, 2009
6
0
0
Visit site
Heres the situation.

Lance Armstrong hasnt come back to ride professionaly to ride for someone else. I think there are going to be a few surprises before the tour. I dont think there will be an astana and neither do I think LA will be on the same team as Contador.

He's riding the tour to win. Thats a FACT. He aint gonna ride for anyone else. Hes a winner, always has been always will be.

He's returned to pro-cycling knowing he can still win. He has simply looked at the figures, i.e what all the other riders are doing, and he knows he can match it.

You only had to look at him in the giro, yes he was out of form, but he still had that fire in his belly. If he was back to simply mooch around he wouldn't have been pulling his ring out to keep in the front groups everyday. He would have been cruising round in the pelican everyday 20mins down.

Everyone has been in cloud cuckoo land expecting him to have done something in the Giro. Look at him in his previous pre-tour days. He was always way off the mark until the tour. He was never anywhere near his best in the Dauphine. He used to ride himself into form during the tour, pretty much in all 7.

Cant wait for the tour, Armstrong will be pinging. Smash em up Armstrong.

Armstrong WILL win his 8th tour.
 
Jun 4, 2009
6
0
0
Visit site
rhubroma said:
He did allright at the Giro, but far below his previous standards,.

Another reader on true cloud cuckoo land.

5th race back since he returned to pro-cycling and I quote you, and given that in 3 years..

''He did allright at the Giro, but far below his previous standards''

:rolleyes:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
clio16vmk1 said:
Another reader on true cloud cuckoo land.

5th race back since he returned to pro-cycling and I quote you, and given that in 3 years..

''He did allright at the Giro, but far below his previous standards''

:rolleyes:

i thought for three years out and the collarbone that was right up there with some of his best performances
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
tifosa said:
All pain is relative. Your point is?

What a pithy, useless statement. Go tell a freaking burn victim that their pain is relative. Seriously, if this is the depth to which you think, stick to reading TMZ.
 
clio16vmk1 said:
Heres the situation.

Lance Armstrong hasnt come back to ride professionaly to ride for someone else. I think there are going to be a few surprises before the tour. I dont think there will be an astana and neither do I think LA will be on the same team as Contador.

He's riding the tour to win. Thats a FACT. He aint gonna ride for anyone else. Hes a winner, always has been always will be.

He's returned to pro-cycling knowing he can still win. He has simply looked at the figures, i.e what all the other riders are doing, and he knows he can match it.

You only had to look at him in the giro, yes he was out of form, but he still had that fire in his belly. If he was back to simply mooch around he wouldn't have been pulling his ring out to keep in the front groups everyday. He would have been cruising round in the pelican everyday 20mins down.

Everyone has been in cloud cuckoo land expecting him to have done something in the Giro. Look at him in his previous pre-tour days. He was always way off the mark until the tour. He was never anywhere near his best in the Dauphine. He used to ride himself into form during the tour, pretty much in all 7.

Cant wait for the tour, Armstrong will be pinging. Smash em up Armstrong.

Armstrong WILL win his 8th tour.

Really? Even when Johhan Bruynnel himself acknowledges Contador as the Leader? if that's the case, then you know something we don't...:confused::confused:
you can always revise the videos of the Giro and have a "realistic opinion"-not the one you came up with from the "cloud cuckoo land" you speak of...:D
 
The GCW said:
I could be wrong, but I think Lance endured a lot of pain in overcoming cancer. More pain than most people experience. I believe that a person who endures a lot of physical pain may have the ability to ignore or endure pain a little better.

In a word: No.

Four years ago I had a kidney stone. A very bad one. Very bad. It was horrific and nightmarish. I was in so much excruciating pain I was curled up on the floor in the bathroom in agony, unable to control myself (use your imagination), and nearly passed out from the pain after urinating blood. This event lasted many hours, and doctors were able to do nothing for me. I thought I was going to die, and then wished I would have. Never before, and never since have I felt such pain.

This event absolutely, positively did NOT make me capable of tolerating more pain on the bike. No way.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Alpe d'Huez said:
In a word: No.

Four years ago I had a kidney stone. A very bad one. Very bad. It was horrific and nightmarish. I was in so much excruciating pain I was curled up on the floor in the bathroom in agony, unable to control myself (use your imagination), and nearly passed out from the pain after urinating blood. This event lasted many hours, and doctors were able to do nothing for me. I thought I was going to die, and then wished I would have. Never before, and never since have I felt such pain.

This event absolutely, positively did NOT make me capable of tolerating more pain on the bike. No way.

I'm with you man. I had the same experience except the doctors shot me up with something that did take the pain away. But I am pretty sure that pain will be just as bad next time.
 
So anyway, did Lance suffer when he had cancer or not? Chemo ain't no picnic. Seems low even for haters not to grant him that. What's fact, what's propaganda? Can't throw that bomb out there and then leave it hanging.
 
May 9, 2009
583
0
0
Visit site
It's also ridiculous to deny that people can build tolerance to pain through experiencing pain in their life. Whether chemo is one of those or not is an open question, but the concept is quite acceptable and a few personal anecdotes will not be persuasive in dismissing it.

But since all anyone is doing here is wildly speculating, we shouldn't leave this one out!:

Metabolic clues regarding the enhanced performance of elite endurance athletes from orchiectomy-induced hormonal changes

extract:
"Physiological tests following his [Armstrong's] recovery indicated that physiological parameters such as VO2 max were not affected by the unilateral orchiectomy and chemotherapy. We propose that his dramatic improvement in recovery between stages, the most important factor in winning multi-day stage races, is due to his unilateral orchiectomy, a procedure that results in permanent changes in serum hormones. These hormonal changes, specifically an increase in gonadotropins (and prolactin) required to maintain serum testosterone levels, alter fuel metabolism; increasing hormone sensitive lipase expression and activity, promoting increased free fatty acid (FFA) mobilization to, and utilization by, muscles, thereby decreasing the requirement to expend limiting glycogen stores before, during and after exercise. Such hormonal changes also have been associated with ketone body production, improvements in muscle repair and haematocrit levels and may facilitate the loss of body weight, thereby increasing power to weight ratio. Taken together, these hormonal changes act to limit glycogen utilization, delay fatigue and enhance recovery thereby allowing for optimal performances on a day-to-day basis. These insights provide the foundation for future studies on the endocrinology of exercise metabolism, and suggest that Lance Armstrong’s athletic advantage was not due to drug use."

Or in layman's terms the argument is presented here: Superhuman: what gives elite athletes the edge? (page two)
 
Thoughtforfood,

I was in the hospital with a person in severe pain trying to pass a kidney stone. It seemed extremely painful. Then afterwords He left the hospital the next morning or so... That's not the kind of pain Lance experienced though.

I'm talking about the pain someone goes through for 6 months of cancer, chemo, spinal taps, bone marrow transplants, mulitiple surgeries etc. etc. and dies or doesn't die. That person has been thorugh extended hell.

Relatively speaking, a person like Lance may come to a point of suffering on the bike and be better able to deal with it / accept it / block it out etc. etc. than a person who is unable to revert back to those memmories to use as a tool to endure...

Now, I understand the viewpoints made here how that doesn't help improve a racers pain threshhold etc. But keep in mind although the pain in passing a kidney stone is very real it is short term and I wouldn't think that it is the type of pain that would improve pain threshhold...

Long term pain, however is what I think / thought may effect it.

Further, I understand how someone may believe long term pain doesn't help... but with out science to back it up, I'm a little doubtful.

Respectful of a person's disagreement, but still, with out scientific research showing otherwise and knowing We are all different, I think Lance had a greater pain threshhold... because of His past.
 
franciep10 said:
I don't get this confusion aspect I think Bruyneel was pretty clear. Contador is #1 Levi is #2 and Lance is #3 how clearer than that do you want it

I think the confusion lays in the fact that the statements have been unclear ever since Lance returned, where in the beggining was about lance riding the Giro, then in the middle of February he started talking about the Tour and whatever happened to "Contador being the world's best rider" in Tenerife, you see how things change one day to another, how the supossed rules of riding is to protect the strongest rider and yet we all saw how devoted all worked for a struggling Armstron while Levi was left pretty much alone? There are more to come specially if Lance shows any improvement, Contador may be out, just like that.
 
stephens said:
It's also ridiculous to deny that people can build tolerance to pain through experiencing pain in their life. Whether chemo is one of those or not is an open question, but the concept is quite acceptable and a few personal anecdotes will not be persuasive in dismissing it.

But since all anyone is doing here is wildly speculating, we shouldn't leave this one out!:

Metabolic clues regarding the enhanced performance of elite endurance athletes from orchiectomy-induced hormonal changes

extract:
"Physiological tests following his [Armstrong's] recovery indicated that physiological parameters such as VO2 max were not affected by the unilateral orchiectomy and chemotherapy. We propose that his dramatic improvement in recovery between stages, the most important factor in winning multi-day stage races, is due to his unilateral orchiectomy, a procedure that results in permanent changes in serum hormones. These hormonal changes, specifically an increase in gonadotropins (and prolactin) required to maintain serum testosterone levels, alter fuel metabolism; increasing hormone sensitive lipase expression and activity, promoting increased free fatty acid (FFA) mobilization to, and utilization by, muscles, thereby decreasing the requirement to expend limiting glycogen stores before, during and after exercise. Such hormonal changes also have been associated with ketone body production, improvements in muscle repair and haematocrit levels and may facilitate the loss of body weight, thereby increasing power to weight ratio. Taken together, these hormonal changes act to limit glycogen utilization, delay fatigue and enhance recovery thereby allowing for optimal performances on a day-to-day basis. These insights provide the foundation for future studies on the endocrinology of exercise metabolism, and suggest that Lance Armstrong’s athletic advantage was not due to drug use."

Or in layman's terms the argument is presented here: Superhuman: what gives elite athletes the edge? (page two)

And in other news, cyclists everywhere are lining up to have one of their balls chopped off...

This sounds even less valid than the notorious Coyle study, which the New Scientist article references. The Coyle study concluded that in a sport drenched in dope, Armstrong's huge increase in performance did not come about from the most obvious reason, taking dope, but from a miraculous increase in muscle efficiency, which has never been seen before. It concluded this based on data which cannot be compared from year to year because the data was taken at different points in the season. The weight data was not even measured. It was reported by the subject, who has a history of lying about his weight.

The extract above is filled with misinformation. It attributes his performance gain to an increased facility for weight loss. From the SCA arbitration we know that Armstrong's weight loss was neglible. It was lies told to the public to explain his unexplainable increase in climbing ability.

The extract also suggests that Armstrong's performance increase was not due to drugs, but we know from retrospective testing that he was using drugs. He was using EPO. Later his team was using blood doping. Ignoring data and coming up with a fantastic hypothesis instead makes the entire research suspect. You might as well write a paper to explain why the sky is green with orange polka dots while steadfastly refusing to look out your office window.

The extract and the New Scientist article seem to say that an increase in endurance and recovery ability explains Armstrong's wins. Extra recovery ability does not explain the real reason for Armstrong's success at the Tour: A huge increase in power, which was evident even in the prologues of a TdF.

The new Scientist article also mentions Armstrong's unusually high VO2max, but does not mention that Armstrong's VO2max is a middling value when compared to other pros.

The study also does not appear to use any real data. It is all conjecture, which would make it even worse than Coyle's shoddy research methods.
 
The GCW said:
I have seen and heard mention of Armstongs extra pounds. He is not the skinny racer of 2005.

In previous Tour years, Armstrong was consumed. Today the Tour doesn't consume Armstong like in 2005...

Armstong is not the same -high performance- person, mind or body as in 2005.

In 2005, Lance didn't have to shed weight. Did not have as many distractions on His mind.

And what Lance has done for increasing Contador's will is huge.

And finally, Lance came out of cancer survivorship with an extremely high tolorance for pain that may not exist like it did...

-0-

I'd like to see today's Lance be the Lance of old. Looking at those facts though seem to indicate Lance is not in a position to honestly win the Tour.

AND, It is not realistic for fans to believe Lance can win it.

-0-

Ah but, He served His Giro commitments... He didn't dig too deep -to hold out for July... Nah...!

Yes, there is still 4 weeks but.... but ... but...

-0-

IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THAT WEIGHT / WAIT!

Although I pointed out in the Giro's TTT that Armstrong looked very hefty, I have mixed feelings about what it portends for the TdF. Aside from the cancer B.S., the points above are good.

I think that Cipo's return to the Tour of California is what inspired Armstrong to return. He saw that all he would have to do is show up, make the old college try, and then he would be fawned over by the fanboys. I have always said that he returned purely to have his ego stroked.

The story about Armstrong getting drunk on the plane and making an @ss of himself after breaking his collar bone would seem to indicate that he is not as serious as he used to be.

On the flip side, I cannot take most of the contenders that seriously. Aside from Contador, who looks to be the real deal, the rest like Evans, Sastre, Menchov, Leipheimer, etc. were second tier contenders before the top tier was eliminated by Operation Puerto. Some might believe the fairy tales that those riders were not doping and now they are able to shine in a cleaner peloton, but I am not one of those true believers. By the end of the Giro, I think Armstrong was better than Leipheimer...or pretty damn close.
 
BroDeal said:
On the flip side, I cannot take most of the contenders that seriously. Aside from Contador, who looks to be the real deal, the rest like Evans, Sastre, Menchov, Leipheimer, etc. were second tier contenders before the top tier was eliminated by Operation Puerto. Some might believe the fairy tales that those riders were not doping and now they are able to shine in a cleaner peloton, but I am not one of those true believers. By the end of the Giro, I think Armstrong was better than Leipheimer...or pretty damn close.

Have to agree with you on pretty much all accounts. Being at Levi's level by the end of the Giro probably has to do with Lance's gain in fittness harmonizing with Levi's drop in form. But I think Armstrong still has a long way to go before he can hope to be in serious contention at a grand tour again. If this become the case at the Tour, then I won't have any doubts about that rumor I read mentioned in an Italian newspaper. No, not one damn doubt about it.
 
Looks like the patented Jan Ullrich strudel and sausages training plan. Someone needs to do a lot of long rides during June with nothing but a water bottle.

15odmpl.jpg
 
Mar 18, 2009
2,442
0
0
Visit site
The GCW said:
Further, I understand how someone may believe long term pain doesn't help... but with out science to back it up, I'm a little doubtful.

Do a Google search. There are thousands of published papers and hundreds of textbooks on chronic pain and its effects. There are clinics throughout the world specifically setup to manage patients with chronic pain and its effects. Bottom line, there is SO much scientific literature out there to prove my point that chronic pain does not increase your tolerance to further pain, but in fact does the exact opposite.

Chemotherapy, radiation therapy and surgery are painful events. But they are events spanning days to weeks, and they end. Pain doesn't end for people with fibromalagia, rheumatoid arthritis and many other conditions. As someone else has mentioned, a burn victim suffers much more pain and over a longer period of time than most cancer patients. Acute events, such as giving birth or passing a kidney stone, are also extremely painful. Hell, riding a bike hurts, yet we voluntarily do it to ourselves on a daily basis.

Lance may have a high pain threshold, but if he does it would be inherent and not acquired.
 
Apr 24, 2009
206
0
0
Visit site
Did everyone miss Lance's interview at the end of the Giro?

Universal Sports did a phone interview with Lance near the end of the Giro and asked him directly about the Astana/TdF leadership issue. Lance said that Contador was the strongest. When asked about how this statement compared to what he said earlier, Lance said something to the effect that "I might have said some other things back in December, but I have my feet planted firmly on the ground now". I think the Giro provided a big reality check for Armstrong re: his conditioning and where he stands in the current peloton, and I saw no signs from Armstrong that he was/is in denial about that. Lance rode in support of Levi during the Giro (when he had the ability) and he will do the same thing for Contador in the TdF.
 
elapid said:
Do a Google search. There are thousands of published papers and hundreds of textbooks on chronic pain and its effects. There are clinics throughout the world specifically setup to manage patients with chronic pain and its effects. Bottom line, there is SO much scientific literature out there to prove my point that chronic pain does not increase your tolerance to further pain, but in fact does the exact opposite.

Chemotherapy, radiation therapy and surgery are painful events. But they are events spanning days to weeks, and they end. Pain doesn't end for people with fibromalagia, rheumatoid arthritis and many other conditions. As someone else has mentioned, a burn victim suffers much more pain and over a longer period of time than most cancer patients. Acute events, such as giving birth or passing a kidney stone, are also extremely painful. Hell, riding a bike hurts, yet we voluntarily do it to ourselves on a daily basis.

Lance may have a high pain threshold, but if he does it would be inherent and not acquired.
Excellent note.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
BroDeal said:
And Leecheimer was the designated leader at the Giro yet the whole team aside from Horner spent its time riding for Armstrong. Even in the best case, Contador's team will start one man down compared to other teams.

you can say that until the cows come home. it won't make it true.
the only time in the mountains that lance was back with the other astana guys and chris was alone with levi was when they were with group of six or seven elite guys at the front that had no teammates. zero, zip, nada. lt was levi that pointed that out when ask that very question. "why were you alone with horner when your teamates were back with lance".
his answer: "did you look around at the other riders? who had a teammate? having chris at that point was a good thing"