Jail time for Lance? Thoughts peeps?

[cineteq]

In sports like soccer, football or baseball, umpires and refs make a lot of mistakes. And most of the time, when they get it wrong the team/player that benefits from that error does not speak up to correct it. They are CHEATING. That cheating can lead to players and coaches getting more money due to the results of their actions. But it's foolish to view that sort of behavior as theft in a legal sense. If you do, you open a big stinking can of worms that makes every sporting event a legal mess.

I understand what are you coming from, but I wasn't just talking about his road cycling success due to doping.

My issue with him is stealing from people who have looked at him as inspiration. For cancer sufferers, Armstrong was a poster-boy for overcoming the impossible. On the other hand, he used that as shield to build his empire. He used to charge $200k as a speaker based on his *successful* career. Wasn't he stealing from those people who went to see him in person?

 

[kurtinsc]

what about the material gains derived from cheating? not stealing per se, but IMO the metaphor is very misleading.

as though sports and economics did not interpenetrate

It's simply not theft.

Think of the "party crashers" who crashed some White House function a year or two ago. They actually DID break the law... but they were able to sell a book deal because of it. The fame was generated from an illegal action, but profits off of that fame are not criminal.

Lance's cheating (not the actual trafficing, but just taking the drugs) is not illegal in the US. It's against the rules of the sport, but as long as you have a prescription for prescription meds... actually taking the drug does not break the law. So how can profiting from cheating without breaking a law be considered criminal?

Note... there MIGHT be a civil case. People could sue him for the money on some sort of tort basis. But nothing that would be jail worthy like theft would be I think. I'd assume the only things that could result in criminal prosecution are drug trafficing or drug dealing type charges.

 

[kurtinsc]

I understand what are you coming from, but I wasn't just talking about his road cycling success due to doping.

My issue with him is stealing from people who have looked at him as inspiration. For cancer sufferers, Armstrong was a poster-boy for overcoming the impossible. On the other hand, he used that as shield to build his empire. He used to charge $200k as a speaker based on his *successful* career. Wasn't he stealing from those people who went to see him in person?

And perhaps some of that could be recovered through civil lawsuits. If a contract was reached based on lies, the aggrieved party can probably sue to get their money back.

But that's not a criminal case. You don't go to jail for that, you can just lose money. That's entirely possible (and entirely up to those who entered into contracts with Armstrong). But the end result will be cash payments, not jail time.

 

[Red Rick]

800 pages are yet missing. I hope he goes to jail for this. one thing is sure. he will never become president

but even more so I hope bruyneel goes to prison

True story

 

[trailrunner]

Bernie Madoff is serving jail time for his ponzi scheme;he did not put anyone's health at risk with inappropriate use of prescription drugs, he did not threaten anyone's buisness or bully critics. Lance should be put in jail right next to Madoff and not released until Madoff is released.

A Ponzi scheme is specifically against the law. Perhaps Madoff didn't threaten anyone's business (which may or may not be against the law), but he did ruin far more people financially than Armstrong did.

 

[cineteq]

But that's not a criminal case. You don't go to jail for that, you can just lose money. That's entirely possible (and entirely up to those who entered into contracts with Armstrong). But the end result will be cash payments, not jail time.

Thanks. Gotcha, he's not technically a thieve or criminal. I guess I'll wait for a class-action lawsuit for buying a tainted Livestrong bracelet, I want my money back and more.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

In a word, no.

Shown to be a liar and cheat, and have to return all his prize money, and deal with potential sponsor lawsuits, yes. Having the media truthfully report on him being a drug kingpin and fraud, and press him every time they see him, yes. But jail, no. I see no reason for it. None. The only person in this mess I potentially see going to jail is Del Moral.

 

[vander]

Definition of fraud: Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

He is still trying to deceive to hold onto what he has gained through his deceiving the entire public for his own personal (and financial) gain. If he doesnt get jail time for this their is something wrong. Everything he has done has been for his own personal gain. I have read so much about his charity and it seems like it is more for him then for cancer sufferers. I hope he gets jail time and has to pay back everything he has earned and more.

Edit: Assuming fraud is punishable with jail time in the US.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

In a word, no.

Shown to be a liar and cheat, and have to return all his prize money, and deal with potential sponsor lawsuits, yes. Having the media truthfully report on him being a drug kingpin and fraud, and press him every time they see him, yes. But jail, no. I see no reason for it. None. The only person in this mess I potentially see going to jail is Del Moral.

I agree that would be about the appropriate level of punishment for him.

That said it seems more like he will keep the majority of his money but maybe do a six month jail term.

 

[Big Daddy]

Yes. No doubt that Armstrong should go to jail. He stole millions of taxpayer money as funneled through USPS and used it to buy and traffic drugs, all aimed at cheating in sport. Even the best Mexican drug cartels would marvel at the sophistication and years that Lance got away with it.

Should Armstrong go to jail for this? No doubt. He should be in jail already. Put him in there. Throw away the key.

 

[Cloxxki]

Madoff committed a financial crime, he committed tax fraud, and he pled guilty.

See the differences?

People killed themselves over his crimes. Well foreseeable and preventable.

 

[burning]

Severe punishment: Hell yeah

Jail time: No

But he should be punished pretty badly, and then sponsors will basically rape him

 

[Love the Scenery]

I don't think lance has perjured himself like Jones did. He hasn't been given the opportunity.

The reasoned decision quotes Armstrong's testimony in court, under oath, that he cut off relations with Dr. Ferrari after Ferrari's conviction in 2004.

Armstrong's testimony from 30 November 2005:
And then you severed your relationship with him based upon that
conviction. Is that – is that true?
A: True. No, we suspended it. Yeah.
Q: Suspended it. But did you use Doctor Ferrari for anything after he was
convicted?
A: Of course not.
Q: Okay. You say you suspended it. It’s not been reinstated. Your relationship with
Doc - - was never reinstated.
A: No, not till the appeal is finished. But there would be no need to consult with him
now.
Q: Of course. But for example, for the 2005 Tour de France, you had no contact
with Doctor Ferrari?
A: Of course not.

The evidence shared by Italian police, however, shows an "Avviso de credito" dated 29 March 2005 from Lance Armstrong to Michele Ferrari in the amount of $US 100000.
http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/JR+Exhibit+B.pdf [the 2005 receipt is page USADA 000091]

He definitely lied under oath, no question.

 

[Yingge]

I wonder if Lance will be seen outside the USA anytime soon. Could be interesting if he surfaced in Europe, only to be arrested.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

In the end I don't really care if he serves time or not.

While cheating at sports bothers me as a fan of sports... as a tax paying citizen it doesn't register as that big a priority.

Yes, things like perjury and trafficing illegal drugs do need to be punished. But I put crimes relating to cheating at a sport way down the list in terms of stuff I want the US law enforcement system to work hard at cracking down on. When I see the government spending millions on trying to put a Barry Bonds or Roger Clemmens in jail for lying about drug use... I do wonder if those dollars could be better spent going after people committing sex crimes, people pushing drugs on children or companies that are comitting unethical practices that screw people out of their retirements.

If it's a slam dunk... then yeah, prosecute him and put him away. If it's going to cost 50 million dollars to prosecute the case... then just let it drop. Punishing him for cheating while riding his bike (and helping others cheat while riding their bikes) is not worth that kind of expenditure.

Dude, just go away. You have been one of Lance's biggest apologists here for years. There is egg on your face right now. Quit trying to divert attention. Apology or GTFO.

 

[kurtinsc]

Definition of fraud: Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

He is still trying to deceive to hold onto what he has gained through his deceiving the entire public for his own personal (and financial) gain. If he doesnt get jail time for this their is something wrong. Everything he has done has been for his own personal gain. I have read so much about his charity and it seems like it is more for him then for cancer sufferers. I hope he gets jail time and has to pay back everything he has earned and more.

Edit: Assuming fraud is punishable with jail time in the US.

Certain types of fraud do result in jail time... but they're fairly specific.

Mostly, the US criminal fraud laws deal with mail fraud, selling counterfeits, laundering money, fraud against banks, fraud against the federal government and in some circumstances frauds dealing with the intentional scamming of large elderly populations (the last one tends to be state specific).

So scamming someone into giving you money for a service then not performing the service is not criminal fraud. You can be sued civilly for money, but that person will not go to jail. Cheating on your TAXES (tax fraud) is a crime that will result in jail time.

So if you make the case that fraud was committed against the US Postal Service... MAYBE you'd be talking about criminal fraud (because they're a branch of the government... and it's fraud against the mail provider for the country). But not for people buying armstrong branded products or companies like Nike.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Certain types of fraud do result in jail time... but they're fairly specific.

Mostly, the US criminal fraud laws deal with mail fraud, selling counterfeits, laundering money, fraud against banks, fraud against the federal government and in some circumstances frauds dealing with the intentional scamming of large elderly populations (the last one tends to be state specific).

So scamming someone into giving you money for a service then not performing the service is not criminal fraud. You can be sued civilly for money, but that person will not go to jail. Cheating on your TAXES (tax fraud) is a crime that will result in jail time.

So if you make the case that fraud was committed against the US Postal Service... MAYBE you'd be talking about criminal fraud (because they're a branch of the government... and it's fraud against the mail provider for the country). But not for people buying armstrong branded products or companies like Nike.

There's a sucker born every minute...as is evidenced by people who pushed the Armstrong myth for years. Ahummm....sorry, just clearing my throat...

 

[kurtinsc]

Dude, just go away. You have been one of Lance's biggest apologists here for years. There is egg on your face right now. Quit trying to divert attention. Apology or GTFO.

What?

Link to me defending armstrong. Show me the post. About the closest thing I recall posting was along the lines of "He cheated, but everyone else did too."

I did defend the charity (as opposed to Lance) for a while and found that I was quite wrong about that. I stepped back from that stance and aplogized back when the IPO for Demand media went out.

And secondly, I have no idea who you are. Excuse me if I ****ed in your cornflakes at some point.

 

[Cyivel]

One thing I'd be concerned about is for some kind of case being brought against him after all the USADA evidence comes out and because it can't be proved due to the different level of proof needed or the difficulty of proving a specific thing like drug trafficking he is found innocent.

 

[the asian]

I'd very much love it.

For that to happen in the US, he must be guilty of perjury (may be lying under oath about Ferrari ) and for a more severe punishment be guilty of drug trafficking.
If the federal investigation resumes, there may be a chance of it.

The French could also pursue an investigation, though it seems less likely.

 

[Poursuivant]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...jury-charges-following-USADA-allegations.html

Possible charges??

 

[kurtinsc]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...jury-charges-following-USADA-allegations.html

Possible charges??

That does open the door. Perjury charges are the ones that most dopers get caught on in the US. Though these sort of charges aren't exactly easy to get convictions on (see Barry Bonds and Roger Clemmons). I'm actually not 100% sure we've had a perjury charge with any of the high profile doping cases where the accused didn't actuall ADMIT openly to doping.

 

[Galic Ho]

Should Lance go to Jail?. When Marion Jones received 6 months for her part in the BALCO scandal some might argue justice was served.
By comparison with Armstrong I,d argue Marion,s crimes were quite minor league.
If you agree Armstrong should serve time what kind of sentence would forum members deem appropriate ?.
If you don't agree he should serve time what reasons would you give for that conclusion?

Freeze him in Carbonite until faster than light travel is possible. Then take him to Rura Penthe, where he will serve time doing hard labour for the remainder of his days.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

What?

Link to me defending armstrong. Show me the post. About the closest thing I recall posting was along the lines of "He cheated, but everyone else did too."

I did defend the charity (as opposed to Lance) for a while and found that I was quite wrong about that. I stepped back from that stance and aplogized back when the IPO for Demand media went out.

And secondly, I have no idea who you are. Excuse me if I ****ed in your cornflakes at some point.

You know what, my bad. I have you mixed up with another poster. I apologize for the flames, you are not the poster I was thinking of.

 

[guilder]

- He should go to jail since he's the biggest fraud in sports.
- He took advantage of Cancer people and made loads of money at the expense of them.
- He was a drug trafficker and ringleader.

Biggest fraud in sports are all those laughing that haven't been caught. Took advantage of cancer people? Get a life you tool. Drug trafficker and ringleader? Says those extorting testimony from cowards.