Jan Ullrich

[Neworld]

I am sure that if it happened like you say it did, Ullrich would have no problems in looking back at his career. Right?

My answer would be that after the 2000 Olympics he never achieved his rightful status amoungst parallel dopers. Then his 'mood' may have matched his lack of achievements. Some would say that is because he never could beat LA and LA was the better. Others will say that when an inferior rider, who is bollstered by the UCI, collusion, a singularly focused team that probably was always a step ahead, constantly beats you become depressed.

Only Ulle can tell us...when he started doping, what volumes of dope he used and what happened on a year by year basis from 1996 to 2006.

 

[x0einstein0x]

Among other hints, Bobby Julich confirmed this for example. He said that Ullrich's was never above 41% hämatocrit when they were riding together at Telekom. Jörg Jacksche stated too that Telekom was riding without blood manipulation in 2000. (He left after the 200 season) Many riders like him already did so at the Tour in 99, he said.

He used it, but he didn't maximize it at all. According to D'Hont and Dietz Ullrich was among the Telekom rider who used Epo only in small amount compared to other team mebers.

Do you have any links or exact sources concerning the Julich, Jacksche, D'Hont and/or Dietz statements?

 

[Bavarianrider]

This is what I can't understand. Surely, in 2the mid-late 90s everyone was doped, right? So why so shocked when Ullrich climbs better when he joins the pros?

Ullrich was an elite climber as a junior ,too.
If nobody had Epo in 1996, Ullrich would have been just as good as he was with it. No doubt in my mind.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Based on what makes you say that ullrich raced clean in 2000?

I am and used to be a big ullrich supporter but all the signs are there that he doped and i see no reason why he would stop that.

Jacksche said no blood doping at Telekom in 2000.
Why should he ly about it?

 

[Benotti69]

Jacksche said no blood doping at Telekom in 2000.
Why should he ly about it?

Depends when he said it and if it was inside statute of limitations.

 

[Roninho]

Jacksche said no blood doping at Telekom in 2000.
Why should he ly about it?

which does not mean ullrich was riding clean. Did jaksche mean no blood doping (as in transfusions etc.) including also no epo usage? Or not? How about nonblood doping (hgh, steriods, whatever)? And what about Ullrich doing things outside from the team? You are stating that Ullrich raced clean, which cannot be claimed with certainty based on Jacksches comments.

 

[Cobblestones]

Race Radio says that Udo Bolts was adamant Ullrich went backwards when the road kicked upwards before they got him on epo.

so dare say, it had an enormous affect

I would agree with that. He was one of those large riders who suddenly found their climbing legs. An excellent TT'er who could have done great in the classics. I would compare him to Canc among today's riders. Blood doping made him a GT rider.

 

[Neworld]

Race Radio says that Udo Bolts was adamant Ullrich went backwards when the road kicked upwards before they got him on epo.

so dare say, it had an enormous affect

You, RR and Udo may be right, but is there a rider in that time frame that EPO did NOT have a significant effect upon?

Ullrich was a young powerful athlete all his life, and a strong rider from 1991-1993 that was reported to be a sprinter (not sure if I have that statement right). But, between 1993 when he won the U23 Champs... and 1996 there were 3 years for him to become some sort of GT rider no? I watched the 1996 and 1997 tours a couple of years back and his physique was not that of a sprinter, or anything like FCancellara's. He was thin and tiny. But yes, his climb especially to Andorra in 1997...WTF !

Who knows tho, you could be right and I'm speculating or dreaming. Hopefully he'll say something in the near future.

 

[Race Radio]

Ullrich was an elite climber as a junior ,too.
If nobody had Epo in 1996, Ullrich would have been just as good as he was with it. No doubt in my mind.

No he wasn't. He was a great TT rider and would have been a strong classics rider but he was not a climber. Within 2 years of turning pro he rode the best climbers in the sport off his wheel. There was little to indicate this would be the case
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yGEa39oH80


Here is Jan's sprint as a teenager
http://youtu.be/-1C2lTh9EI0

 

[Race Radio]

You, RR and Udo may be right, but is there a rider in that time frame that EPO did NOT have a significant effect upon?

Ullrich was a young powerful athlete all his life, and a strong rider from 1991-1993 that was reported to be a sprinter (not sure if I have that statement right). But, between 1993 when he won the U23 Champs... and 1996 there were 3 years for him to become some sort of GT rider no? I watched the 1996 and 1997 tours a couple of years back and his physique was not that of a sprinter, or anything like FCancellara's. He was thin and tiny. But yes, his climb especially to Andorra in 1997...WTF !

Who knows tho, you could be right and I'm speculating or dreaming. Hopefully he'll say something in the near future.

Yes, plenty. Riders with a high Vo2, High Hct, and low muscle mass did not benefit as much as a rider like Jan

 

[slowspoke]

Yes, plenty. Riders with a high Vo2, High Hct, and low muscle mass did not benefit as much as a rider like Jan

The good ones then......

 

[ultimobici]

All logically notions would suggest you are wrong.

-He won the U23 World clean.
-He won the 2000 RR Olympics clean
-He finished 2nd in 2000 ITT Olympics clean
-He was restricting his doping during 2001 & 2002 and still was second.
-Started autologous blooding later than 'other' riders and still placed top 5 over those years

No doubt the guy was maximizing EPO in 1996 and 1997.

To say we don't know he had talent to complete clean is way off. This guy had all the talent, lacked focus and restricted his boosting while others maximized theirs to make sure they could compete with Ullrich. Lanceypants feared Ullrich so much he turned into the neoHog, and forced his team to 'hog-it' as well.

Bearing in mind there was no test for EPO at the time, the 2000 olympics can't be called either way. Unless, of course, retroactive testing has been carried out.

 

[joe_papp]

No he wasn't. He was a great TT rider and would have been a strong classics rider but he was not a climber. Within 2 years of turning pro he rode the best climbers in the sport off his wheel. There was little to indicate this would be the case
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yGEa39oH80


Here is Jan's sprint as a teenager
http://youtu.be/-1C2lTh9EI0

This is why cycling must have the truth and reconciliation commission w/ no criminal/financial/sporting penalties after full-disclosure. We are some of the most sophisticated and knowledgeable fans of pro cycling anywhere in the world, and some of us were even pro cyclists ourselves, and even actively-engaged in the dark world of doping, yet we can't agree on how good of a rider Jan Ullrich would've been "standard," or just exactly when he was most likely manipulating his blood.

I'm starting to understand why the average casual fans throws his arms up in disgust and frustration and walks away b/c he can't be sure what to believe!

 

[webvan]

Exactly and when I think that many here could swear blind that Wiggo and Sky are doping like crazy...

Yes, plenty. Riders with a high Vo2, High Hct, and low muscle mass did not benefit as much as a rider like Jan

And where has all that information concerning riders ever been published, don't ever recall seeing Ullrich's info, where have you?

Actually the only number I've read about was the 41% Hct that Ullrich never went over in 2001 according to Kevin Livingston. That doesn't look like a guy doing a lot of blood manipulation and he was only being beaten by a guy on a crazy program so that does show a bit of GT talent.

 

[Bavarianrider]

which does not mean ullrich was riding clean. Did jaksche mean no blood doping (as in transfusions etc.) including also no epo usage? Or not? How about nonblood doping (hgh, steriods, whatever)? And what about Ullrich doing things outside from the team? You are stating that Ullrich raced clean, which cannot be claimed with certainty based on Jacksches comments.

Blood doping includes Epo. too.
All i say is that there are strong indication that at least in 2000 and 2001 Ullrich raced without any form of blood manipulation. I didn't say he raced totally clean.

 

[Bavarianrider]

No he wasn't. He was a great TT rider and would have been a strong classics rider but he was not a climber. Within 2 years of turning pro he rode the best climbers in the sport off his wheel. There was little to indicate this would be the case
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yGEa39oH80


Here is Jan's sprint as a teenager
http://youtu.be/-1C2lTh9EI0

Yes he was.
He wasn't a great cllimber in his first year as a pro in 1995.
But according to Jeff d'Hont Ullrich started using Epo in 1996. In 1995 no one was a great climber if he didn't use Epo.

 

[Roninho]

Blood doping includes Epo. too.
All i say is that there are strong indication that at least in 2000 and 2001 Ullrich raced without any form of blood manipulation. I didn't say he raced totally clean.

Fair enough.

And for clarification, i had replied on a post by newround claiming that in 2000ullrich raced clean, and after you replied to my post i somehow assumed that was newround explaining his claim that ullrich raced totally clean. Sorry for the mixup.

Anyway, you seem to know a lot about ullrich, any rumours/stories that there might be some truth in newworlds suggestion that ullrich had issues with the doping (as far as getting depressed)?

 

[Neworld]

Yes, plenty. Riders with a high Vo2, High Hct, and low muscle mass did not benefit as much as a rider like Jan

Without sounding argumentative the individual eryhropoiesis response of a person to EPO and /or atlitude training is VARIABLE and unpredictable...which may be your point about Ullrich. But how do you know that his was beyond that of other EPO users?

Variables
-Training at altitude, living below 2500m
-Living at altitude, training above 2500m
-baseline Hg, HCT, endogenous EPO levels...
-EPO gene polymorphism

So from another standpoint, who knows if Jan was a 'responder' beyond 2 SD or average or below 2SD to the norm? We are guessing based on Udo Bolts?

I would like to see Jan's blood levels and biophysical parameters compared to other riders...at least that would give us some entry level comparative values. The only way to discover the further EPO response would be to biopsy his kidney I guess.

SOme posters have answered me in the past as said Jan's Vo2Max was 88. Certainly the ASO or UCI have his other data. Can anyone get those personal values or are they tightly controlled?

 

[webvan]

The title was promising (if LA hadn't been a big doper I wouldn't have doped myself, here's hoping!) here http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jan-ullrich-i-would-have-acted-differently - but nothing new really.

 

[thingswelike]

The title was promising (if LA hadn't been a big doper I wouldn't have doped myself, here's hoping!) here http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jan-ullrich-i-would-have-acted-differently - but nothing new really.

Yes, precisely! Maybe one day he'll be more open. But it sounds like it's painful for him to talk about.

 

[Pedaaldanser]

The translation "I get the developments but do not follow it" is a bit odd. What he says is that he'll take note of the developments but that he's following it intensively.

In the original german article at http://www.bild.de/sport/mehr-sport...reinen-tisch-machen-sollen-24818338.bild.html he also says that he's not going to talk about doping related stuff because that would drag many others down with him, and he's not the type of guy to do that.

He also says that he doesn't think he will return to the sport. More specifically he says that he'd be on the road all year long as a team director (saying implicitly that he wouldn't want that). He can imagine passing on his experiences in some way though.

At the end of the interview he's asked if there are any races he would like to ride. He answers that he rides the "Ötztaler-radmarathon" every year and that he would like to ride it with Lance Armstrong. He invited him this year but he had other plans. But he's convinced it will happen some time.

 

[webvan]

Confusing...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ullrich-alludes-to-doping-era-in-cycling

 

[webvan]

A bit disappointed to read in Tyler's book that he got confirmation from Ufe (Fuentes) in 2003 that Ullrich was one of his clients too...consistent with Pevenage's "we're not stupid, we knew what was going on and decided to do something about it".

 

[webvan]

Since Dopestrong is out Ullrich is going to regret getting back on the juice after 2001 it seems, if he'd made the right decision at the time he'd be a three time TDF champion now, 1997, 2000 and 2001. I hope that doesn't make him depressed again...

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Since Dopestrong is out Ullrich is going to regret getting back on the juice after 2001 it seems, if he'd made the right decision at the time he'd be a three time TDF champion now, 1997, 2000 and 2001. I hope that doesn't make him depressed again...

why"he's not getting the tour wins of 2000 and 2001 either, despite him not (extensively) doping