Jan Ullrich

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Apr 20, 2012
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Gregga said:
According to Voet, Dojwa was a very early EPO user in the '93 TdF
IMO he was not that much stolen as he was not a big talent as an amateur
I seem to have lost my copy, could you scan the page where Voet says so?

If he was an early epo gangster - what would surprise me to be honest - he did have a very strange carreerpath, to say the least. That noted, he went to GAN the year after his Tour 'succes' of 1993, do you really think he was offered EPO on that squad? Uh uh.
I also wonder why RR is so critical of Ulle...yeah he took stuff but was he really such a super responder? In 2001 his HCT was 41 or 42 according to KL and he didn't do too badly...
You really have a lot to learn.

EPO ---> fat mtf's can climb like Herrera
Aicar ---> skinny mtf's become TT and climb specialists

Ullrich = EPO wonder and Bloodbag rider, he just had not the backroomstaff like the uniballer otherwise he would have won the Tour 8 times, if he ate enough in the cold that is.
Race Radio said:
Doh!. Sorry mixed Dojwa up with Bouwmans, 92 White jersey winner

Jan's Hct was not 41 or 42 during the Tour.
Ah, yes, he was certainly an epo victim. Experimented one time with cortico's and was cured for life to other ped's.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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hrotha said:
Rasmussen was flying with a hematocrit of 39-40 in the 2005 Tour. I wouldn't dismiss Livingston's claim so easily.
In 07 he was 43.9 in the 3rd week.....Likely after slamming some saline or plasma to bring it down
 
Mar 25, 2013
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Gregga said:
KL also said Moreau had 41 or 42 which in my opinion is a joke as Moreau was quite as good in the 2000 TdF as he was in his pre-98 years... Moreau (index 7) was one of the french riders who didn't change post 98, as Virenque or Jalabert.
hrotha said:
Rasmussen was flying with a hematocrit of 39-40 in the 2005 Tour. I wouldn't dismiss Livingston's claim so easily.
I think it was JV not KL who said that about Moreau at Credit Agricole in the IM with Frankie. JV got told by Livingston that Ullrich never raced above 42 when he was at Telekom.
 
Race Radio said:
Doh!. Sorry mixed Dojwa up with Bouwmans, 92 White jersey winner

Jan's Hct was not 41 or 42 during the Tour.
Do you know something specific about 2001 that KL who raced with Ulle in 2001 didn't ?

I could understand KL saying he didn't know what Ulle's HCT was but in this case he stated (to Frankie or JV can't remember now but it came up in that IM discussion) what Ulle's HCT was, so...
 
Aug 13, 2009
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webvan said:
Do you know something specific about 2001 that KL who raced with Ulle in 2001 didn't ?

I could understand KL saying he didn't know what Ulle's HCT was but in this case he stated (to Frankie or JV can't remember now but it came up in that IM discussion) what Ulle's HCT was, so...
Yes. I have talked to many of the people who rode and worked on the team.

Certainly possible Jan's Hct was 42 at one point but you do not go to Fuentes because you want to keep your Hct low
 
Ah so you're no longer saying he didn't race the 2001 TDF at 42 like KL told his friends?

Let's see...it hasn't been established he went to Fuentes before 2005 as far as anyone knows? So there's nothing to say that KL was not correct in stating that Ulle's HCT never went above 42 when he was at Telekom, including the entire 2001 TDF? Which brings us to the point that you don't really have any specific grounds it would appear to constantly dismiss him as a "super responder"...

Hopefully we'll know some day but reading between the lines of what Pevenage has declared, Ulle and Telekom got off the sauce after Festina and he only got back on it after being trashed by Dopestrong a few times too many "we weren't dumb, we knew what was going on". I'm guessing that would be after 2001 since Ulle was probably at his best for that tour (unlike for the 2000 TDF).

Don't get me wrong, your info on the LA "affair" was greatly appreciated, but generalizing or making sweeping statements (Dojwa was robbed by Ulle) doesn't really help anyone.
 
"Jan had the first 3. Without them he never wins the Tour or gets on the podium."


Most experts and riders agree that Ullrich would have been better in a clean field not worse. Hardly anyone doubts his exceptional talent.
 
Mar 12, 2013
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Bavarianrider said:
"Jan had the first 3. Without them he never wins the Tour or gets on the podium."


Most experts and riders agree that Ullrich would have been better in a clean field not worse. Hardly anyone doubts his exceptional talent.
I am sorry for this question, but is Ullrich not from DDR? How could someone be sure about how good he would do in a "clean" race? Because of the way he was going when he was 12?:)
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Bavarianrider said:
"Jan had the first 3. Without them he never wins the Tour or gets on the podium."


Most experts and riders agree that Ullrich would have been better in a clean field not worse. Hardly anyone doubts his exceptional talent.
Not the experts and riders I talk to
 
Samson777 said:
I am sorry for this question, but is Ullrich not from DDR? How could someone be sure about how good he would do in a "clean" race? Because of the way he was going when he was 12?:)
He was 15 when the system collapsed :rolleyes:. Bit lame to use the DDR argument against him
 
hrotha said:
Pevenage was quite obviously trying to put themselves in a good light. The Livingston thing has more weight, as it wasn't meant to be public.
Or just clearing his conscience, it's not like he had anything to gain by talking to L'Equipe, and it's consistent with what KL said off the record as you point out.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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webvan said:
Ah so you're no longer saying he didn't race the 2001 TDF at 42 like KL told his friends?

Let's see...it hasn't been established he went to Fuentes before 2005 as far as anyone knows? So there's nothing to say that KL was not correct in stating that Ulle's HCT never went above 42 when he was at Telekom, including the entire 2001 TDF? Which brings us to the point that you don't really have any specific grounds it would appear to constantly dismiss him as a "super responder"...

Hopefully we'll know some day but reading between the lines of what Pevenage has declared, Ulle and Telekom got off the sauce after Festina and he only got back on it after being trashed by Dopestrong a few times too many "we weren't dumb, we knew what was going on". I'm guessing that would be after 2001 since Ulle was probably at his best for that tour (unlike for the 2000 TDF).

Don't get me wrong, your info on the LA "affair" was greatly appreciated, but generalizing or making sweeping statements (Dojwa was robbed by Ulle) doesn't really help anyone
Jan started working with Fuentes in 2003.

Pevenage is a POS. His claims are as believable as Lance saying he only did "A little" EPO.

It is certainly possible Jan toned down his program in 2000 but he still had a program
 
Mar 12, 2013
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Bavarianrider said:
He was 15 when the system collapsed :rolleyes:. Bit lame to use the DDR argument against him
He was on sports school in DDR, and if you were doped in DDR, it is not like it was impossible to continue afterwards:)

In Ullrichs case; he did not change cycling club until 2 years after the end of DDR..
 
Race Radio said:
Jan started working with Fuentes in 2003.

Pevenage is a POS. His claims are as believable as Lance saying he only did "A little" EPO.

It is certainly possible Jan toned down his program in 2000 but he still had a program
And you're basing that on ? Honestly you're all over the place with your arguments, assertions rather, you state Ullrich never raced the TDF at HcT/42 as KL told his friends, then you back off, that he robbed Dojwa of his carreer, when in fact Dojwa was a doper, etc...take it easy, this is not good for the discussions here!

As for Pevenage, he's no different than Riis, Gianetti, Voet, etc...or anyone else who's been involved/helped/encouraged others to dope, doesn't mean he can't stop lying when there's nothing in it left for him...a lot of good things have come from people doing that, Landis, then Hamilton and all the other guys who brought LA down.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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webvan said:
And you're basing that on ? Honestly you're all over the place with your arguments, assertions rather, you state Ullrich never raced the TDF at HcT/42 as KL told his friends, then you back off, that he robbed Dojwa of his carreer, when in fact Dojwa was a doper, etc...take it easy, this is not good for the discussions here!

As for Pevenage, he's no different than Riis, Gianetti, Voet, etc...or anyone else who's been involved/helped/encouraged others to dope, doesn't mean he can't stop lying when there's nothing in it left for him...a lot of good things have come from people doing that, Landis, then Hamilton and all the other guys who brought LA down.
If you read my posts you will see that I am consistent, not "All over the place" . KL has no idea what Jan was, or was not, doing. None. Few in the team did.

Jan started working with Fuentes in 2003.

http://www.thelocal.de/sport/20091017-22635.html#.UVW6DheG2So

Jan, Like Lance, Riis, Pantani etc were talented riders but what separated them from the rest was their response to their doping program. On a level playing field none of them would won the Tour. Lance and Jan would have won Classics and Riis would have collected bottles.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Bavarianrider said:
"Jan had the first 3. Without them he never wins the Tour or gets on the podium."


Most experts and riders agree that Ullrich would have been better in a clean field not worse. Hardly anyone doubts his exceptional talent.
Keep on believing that. If Riis was born 6 years earlier he would have won 5 in a row, and, no one would have heard of a certain Jan Ullrich.

For the Livingstone stuff:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

Cyclevaughters said:
Cyclevaughters: and then lance says " this guy and that guys are pussies"
NostraVaughters.
 
Race Radio said:
If you read my posts you will see that I am consistent, not "All over the place" . KL has no idea what Jan was, or was not, doing. None. Few in the team did.
But you do? Come on...

Jan started working with Fuentes in 2003.
And KL was talking about 2001, so that doesn't contradict what he said.

http://www.thelocal.de/sport/20091017-22635.html#.UVW6DheG2So

Jan, Like Lance, Riis, Pantani etc were talented riders but what separated them from the rest was their response to their doping program. On a level playing field none of them would won the Tour. Lance and Jan would have won Classics and Riis would have collected bottles.
And you can assert that because? Frankly this is getting silly, it seems your "success" against LA has somewhat gone to your head...and yes I had to spell it out.
 
Apr 21, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
I seem to have lost my copy, could you scan the page where Voet says so?

If he was an early epo gangster - what would surprise me to be honest - he did have a very strange carreerpath, to say the least. That noted, he went to GAN the year after his Tour 'succes' of 1993, do you really think he was offered EPO on that squad? Uh uh.You really have a lot to learn.
I don't have the copy with me but I will get it back and scan it for you (in french ;) )
As far as I remember the story was that in june 1993, the Festina had enough of the italian team superiority and decided to try EPO. But it was too close to get huge benefits as they started just before the TdF and maybe didn't take enough during the TdF. Anyway it was not just placebo either, but in 1994, they knew better how to use it and got their HCT around 55 before the TdF Leblanc and Virenque making 4th and 5th.

More recently Vayer told an amazing story on twitter : in early 1993 Dr Ferrari dropping a paper near a hotel desk, Voet taking it to Rijkaert... The paper was supposed to be the medication manual from a box of Eprex ! Sounds weird, as if Rijkaert didn't know EPO in 1993 (I personnaly clearly remember l'Equipe talking about EPO in 1991)
 
Jan 27, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Jan's Hct was not 41 or 42 during the Tour.
I think everyone would love to know more on Jan's (and others') stats. Since you are able to pick particular tours that Jan was in and provide HCTs...could you do that for all of Jan's Tours please?

Also, could you list the HCTs and Vo2Max's or any other stat... for say the top 5 riders over the last while. I know that is significant work for you but I'd love to be able to approach or realize at least a bit of objectivity when it comes to dopers.

Otherwise all we can tell is that they are all dopers, and those with money dope more...but the comparables are impossible. I hope not, but you'd be the one to help. Without more facts your assertions that Jan was an uber-responder, and KL was lying are without basis. Again I would like to hear more about various riders stats but I don't have access to those types of numbers. BTW; I don't support any doper and although Jan was a favourite of mine to watch he still doped.

Help us RR.
 

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