Jan Ullrich

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Aug 13, 2009
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Bavarianrider said:
Look at Riis in 1997/1998. Top 10 rdier not more. Once his 60%benefit was gone he was nowhere near a Tour winner.
Ullrich on the other hand
Riis was not on the Telekom Program in 1996. He managed his own, including transfusions. He took his Hct to 64% when the Telekom doctors would not allow over 54%.

Better thing to look at is how Jan would get dropped at training camp then shocked everyone. He was always a good TT rider but suddenly he climbed like a god. It was even more extreme in 1997. There is nothing in Jan early career that would indicate what happen on the Arcalis was possible. Nothing. It was one of the more disturbing displays in the sports history
 
Aug 13, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Riis was not on the Telekom Program. He managed his own, including transfusions. He took his Hct to 64% when the Telekom doctors would not allow over 54%

Better thing to look at is how Jan would get dropped at training camp then shocked everyone. He was always a good TT rider but suddenly he climbed like a god
iirc Hamilton in his book seemed to imply that Riis doing multiple transfusions was what made him so strong in 96. Not many people were doing multiple BBs and it gave an immediate boost unlike EPO.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Don't be late Pedro said:
iirc Hamilton in his book seemed to imply that Riis doing multiple transfusions was what made him so strong in 96. Not many people were doing multiple BBs and it gave an immediate boost unlike EPO.
Yup Nobody was doing transfusions in 96 but Riis. It was unheard of. I expect the reason he went that route was that it was percieved to be less of an impact on the body. Yes, that sounds strange but one of the key challenges of EPO doping in the 90's was it took 2-3 days for your body to adapt to each round. EPO would stimulate your body to produce RBCs which would leave many riders sluggish and tired for a few days. Transfusions have a similar effect but it lasts for a few hours instead of a few days
 
Aug 13, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Yup Nobody was doing transfusions in 96 but Riis. It was unheard of. I expect the reason he went that route was that it was percieved to be less of an impact on the body. Yes, that sounds strange but one of the key challenges of EPO doping in the 90's was it took 2-3 days for your body to adapt to each round. EPO would stimulate your body to produce RBCs which would leave many riders sluggish and tired for a few days. Transfusions have a similar effect but it lasts for a few hours instead of a few days
That being the case any idea why he was not so strong in 97? Did everyone catch up with transfusions, did the introduction of the 50% force him to tone his programme down, a mixture of the two or something else?
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Don't be late Pedro said:
That being the case any idea why he was not so strong in 97? Did everyone catch up with transfusions, did the introduction of the 50% force him to tone his programme down, a mixture of the two or something else?
For Riis the 50% limit hit him hard. Not many riders were willing to take that level of risk and take their Hct to 64%. Most team doctors discouraged it as well.

Once the 50% level became the rule the Hct/Vo2 equation became far more important then the level of risk a rider was willing to take
 
Aug 13, 2010
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Race Radio said:
For Riis the 50% limit hit him hard. Not many riders were willing to take that level of risk and take their Hct to 64%. Most team doctors discouraged it as well.

Once the 50% level became the rule the Hct/Vo2 equation became far more important then the level of risk a rider was willing to take
Thanks. 64% sounds insane. He must have been riding his bike at night as much as he did during the day.
 
I know Riis did things his own way at Telekom, but that raises a question: what did Telekom do differently in 1996 compared to 1995? Did Riis bring in some expertise? Because it wasn't just Riis or Ullrich: veterans like Bölts, Henn or Heppner were also very strong.
 
Jul 15, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Not the experts and riders I talk to
Well what do they say?

He did put in a good time trial at that amateur event last year that was attended by Gibo and some other recently retired pro.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Gregga said:
According to Voet, Dojwa was a very early EPO user in the '93 TdF
IMO he was not that much stolen as he was not a big talent as an amateur
Yup pulled out his book and it's on page 152
 
Apr 7, 2011
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Zweistein said:
Well what do they say?

He did put in a good time trial at that amateur event last year that was attended by Gibo and some other recently retired pro.
It was a mountain TT with a climb of 12km with 10% gradient.
Ullrich beat Simoni and the 2010 winnwe of the Özthalercycling marathon by more than 3 minutes. And Ullrich certainly was around 80kg. The guy is simply a freak of nature. 3-4month of serious training and he woud be competitve again. No doubt.
 
Bavarianrider said:
It was a mountain TT with a climb of 12km with 10% gradient.
Ullrich beat Simoni and the 2010 winnwe of the Özthalercycling marathon by more than 3 minutes. And Ullrich certainly was around 80kg. The guy is simply a freak of nature. 3-4month of serious training and he woud be competitve again. No doubt.
Ullrich is probably still on juice.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Bavarianrider said:
It was a mountain TT with a climb of 12km with 10% gradient.
Ullrich beat Simoni and the 2010 winnwe of the Özthalercycling marathon by more than 3 minutes. And Ullrich certainly was around 80kg. The guy is simply a freak of nature. 3-4month of serious training and he woud be competitve again. No doubt.
One month of aicar and der Jan ist zuruck.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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The first of Tyler's 3 BB's for the 2004 Tour had gone bad and made him sick. The second was intercepted by customs. Didn't he say the same thing happened to Jan?
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Tyler'sTwin said:
The first of Tyler's 3 BB's for the 2004 Tour had gone bad and made him sick. The second was intercepted by customs. Didn't he say the same thing happened to Jan?
Jan got very sick during the 2003 Tour. Lost over a minute on Alp d'Huez. He had a high fever, which could have been related to bad blood, but I always heard it was a stomach issue. At that time I do not think he was using Fuentes yet, he didn't start till later in the year.

The metamorphosis of Jan in the 3 months leading up to the 2003 was astonishing. I have never seen anything like it. I wonder who,and what, he was using. I know he moved to Italy and worked closely with Cecchini but I always heard that Checco didn't like get his hands dirty as he had too much to lose.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Zweistein said:
Well what do they say?
They would tell me about how he would get dropped on climbs at training camp then suddenly podium at the Tour.

look, every DS in the 90/00's understood the Hct/Vo2 formula. They also understood that when your body suddenly has 20% more RBC that unless you have muscles to absorb that additional oxygen that it is wasted. One thing Jan had was muscle in all the right places. Lance had this as well. Surprisingly Pantani also had this. Roberto Pregnolato, Marco Pantani's soigneur. said he was the most densely muscled rider he ever worked with.
 
Jul 14, 2012
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Race Radio said:
Jan, Like Lance, Riis, Pantani etc were talented riders but what separated them from the rest was their response to their doping program. On a level playing field none of them would won the Tour. Lance and Jan would have won Classics and Riis would have collected bottles.
The 1997 TDF saw the introduction of the 50% hematocrits level. The majority of the field are on EPO at 46-50% and Jan destroys the field to win. There is little doubt Jan would have destroyed Riis in 1996 as well had the field been forced to stay under the 50% level in that year And that is before we even get to the Armstrong years. You really think Jan Ullrich would not have won a Tour on a level playing field (ie, no doping) ? In other words, you must be saying that he was a strong responder to doping.

I personally find it difficult to come up with names that would/could have beaten him.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Bratam said:
The 1997 TDF saw the introduction of the 50% hematocrits level. The majority of the field are on EPO at 46-50% and Jan destroys the field to win. There is little doubt Jan would have destroyed Riis in 1996 as well had the field been forced to stay under the 50% level in that year And that is before we even get to the Armstrong years. You really think Jan Ullrich would not have won a Tour on a level playing field (ie, no doping) ? In other words, you must be saying that he was a strong responder to doping.

I personally find it difficult to come up with names that would/could have beaten him.
There are many elements but the most basic is Hct/Vo2

Take two riders with identical Vo2. One has a natural Hct of 41 the other is at 48. Both can boost their Hct to 50......which one gets the most benefit? How does a rider who gets a 2% boost in Vo2 compete with one who gets a 13% boost?

Now add in the cocktail of drugs, under expert supervision, that when administered correctly and on schedule add lean muscle mass that can put that additional RBC to good use.

It is no coincidence that from 1991-2005 almost all GT podiums were populated by riders who worked with one of these doctors

Michele Ferrari
Luigi Cecchini
Ilario Casoni
Giovanni Grazzi
Carlo Santuccione
Gianni Mazzoni

All went to college together and developed the modern Oxygen vector doping methods. During those 15 years GT success depended largely on their guidance, a rider's response to the doping methods available, willingness to take risk, and the governing bodies and media's willingness to look the other way
 
Jan 27, 2010
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Bratam said:
The 1997 TDF saw the introduction of the 50% hematocrits level. The majority of the field are on EPO at 46-50% and Jan destroys the field to win. There is little doubt Jan would have destroyed Riis in 1996 as well had the field been forced to stay under the 50% level in that year And that is before we even get to the Armstrong years. You really think Jan Ullrich would not have won a Tour on a level playing field (ie, no doping) ? In other words, you must be saying that he was a strong responder to doping.

I personally find it difficult to come up with names that would/could have beaten him.
RaceRadio is saying a few things:

1. HCT : VO2Max ratio- that Jan benefited from maximizing O2 extraction to achieve superior Aerobic outcomes, but still no one seems to know Jan’s VO2Max, not his annual HCT values? Do people have access to Jan’s UCI historical blood profiles, I cannot find them? A man who had no reason to lie stated that Jan’s was never above 43, and that statement was reiterated by JV/F. Andreu.

2. Muscular propensity (Lean body Mass)-that Jan was more muscular and thus EPO and Autolog BBoosting would maximize that asymmetric M>Fat ratio.
-my questions would be …I thought the urban myth was that Jan was always overweight?
-Yes Muscles consume more O2 but having more muscular mass would also deplete the O2 quicker so what is the ratio to Muscular build to O2 consumption…does it really benefit them? Wouldn’t Jan have consumed preferentially more O2 dragging his muscular body (and don’t forget his fatness) over all those Cols, thus reducing the benefit of EPO (at HCT of 43) and BB?
-Everyone seems to forget that Fat is highly vascular and although it doesn’t consume as ‘much’ O2 as Muscle it still does. So which is it, he was Muscular and fat? Muscular and lean?

3. PreTdF training – the urban myth is that he never trained hard, never was ready in time, was fat and just ‘juiced’ preTour to achieve greatness. Yet Jef d'Hont, Aldag, T. Hamilton, Landis and others…describe how in awe they were of his ‘athleticism’. No doubt he was doping like the rest and no doubt the other TdF contenders didn’t race much before the tours, that’s a draw. I especially like how Paul S and Phil L would describe how the crack in Jan’s lower lip was due to him being sick or ‘cramming’ his training prior to the TdF.

4. Super-responder – I guess this gets back to point 1. I think the first question to answer is…was his HCT always at 43 in competition? If so, there is no possibility to being a super-responder or even responder to EPO unless his natural HCT is significantly lower than 43; not likely. Yes, he would still benefit from Autol BB but how much difference would that make against someone who elevated their HCT from 42 to 49 AND BBoosted? If his HCT was above 43 then which tours was that?

Frankly I don’t know what the answers are, but what I have had enough is that Jan was always (i) Fat, (ii) never trained (iii) physiologically benefitted from being more muscular (iv) a super-responder …? Show me the data. Was Jan able to maximize his O2 extraction in ways that were superior to all the rest helping his fat undertrained body compete?

The answer is probably somewhere in the middle, and in that scenario it would appear that he was more gifted as the other riders had a similar variation or collection of the above factors; and Jan still beat them. He didn’t beat LA for reasons like UCI corruption, not doping dangerously, the TTTs and sharing his teammates efforts to assist Zabel.

These are just my questions and thoughts. In some silly way I am trying to make sense of the doped races I unfortunately watched and wasted my time viewing. I hope to eventually find out what various riders biometric and blood profiles were to compare all those stage wins and MTFs. Does anyone have access to those values or are we just going to passing back and forth ... "my people said his HCT was 43, well mine say they were 48"? Until that happens ...
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Neworld said:
A man who had no reason to lie stated that Jan’s was never above 43, .
Not never....one season. 2001.


Really this discussion could be about any top rider from those 15 years. The key differentiation in a group of talented riders who trained hard was how they responded to the program. It is something that the doctors and DS' were well aware of at the time. It is also something that is found in most discussions of PED's in others sports. Some athletes, like Ben Johnson, Kelli White, etc. respond far better to doping then others.
 
Jan 27, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Not never....one season. 2001.


Really this discussion could be about any top rider from those 15 years. The key differentiation in a group of talented riders who trained hard was how they responded to the program. ...
Fair enough...given your ability to be correct and have access to reliable 'insight' I will believe you.

I would feel more comfortable seeing some actual numbers though.

So what was Jan's innate HCT (?43) and VO2 Max btw?
 
Apr 7, 2011
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Race Radio said:
There are many elements but the most basic is Hct/Vo2

Take two riders with identical Vo2. One has a natural Hct of 41 the other is at 48. Both can boost their Hct to 50......which one gets the most benefit? How does a rider who gets a 2% boost in Vo2 compete with one who gets a 13% boost?

Now add in the cocktail of drugs, under expert supervision, that when administered correctly and on schedule add lean muscle mass that can put that additional RBC to good use.

It is no coincidence that from 1991-2005 almost all GT podiums were populated by riders who worked with one of these doctors

Michele Ferrari
Luigi Cecchini
Ilario Casoni
Giovanni Grazzi
Carlo Santuccione
Gianni Mazzoni

All went to college together and developed the modern Oxygen vector doping methods. During those 15 years GT success depended largely on their guidance, a rider's response to the doping methods available, willingness to take risk, and the governing bodies and media's willingness to look the other way
Ullrich did NOT work with one of this doctors when he won the Tour!
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Race Radio said:
Michele Ferrari
Luigi Cecchini
Ilario Casoni
Giovanni Grazzi
Carlo Santuccione
Gianni Mazzoni

All went to college together and developed the modern Oxygen vector doping methods. During those 15 years GT success depended largely on their guidance, a rider's response to the doping methods available, willingness to take risk, and the governing bodies and media's willingness to look the other way
Just look at this page:
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Giovanni_Grazzi/
and note the co-researchers/reviewers. A nice band of brothers - and one sister who is now at Astana - if you ask me.

Ullrich did NOT work with one of this doctors when he won the Tour!
The genie was long out of the bottle, and, I do belief the Freiburg dottores were able to read up.
 

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