Jan Ullrich

[thehog]

Of course Ullrich needed to dope to win the Tour de France. Anybody who wanted to win the Tour de France in Ullrich's era had to dope to win the Tour de France.

The response to this argument is always the ahistorical "what if" argument: The argument that if everybody else was clean and if Ullrich didn't dope, then Ullrich could not have ever won the Tour.

That's two too many "ifs" for me. It's basically just saying: "In my ideal mental world-view of what cycling ought to be, Jan Ullrich could never have won the Tour de France clean."

That argument is fine and dandy, but to insult other posters when they beg to differ is rather ridiculous.

Mark, 100% agree. The guy coming 79th on GC at the Tour was doping. Way too many what it's to even begin to pick a clean winner.

Couldn't even pick the best doped up rider let along the best clean one. That entire era was a mess.

It was an arms race, with doping regimes differing from team to team, from rider to rider. Selecting out one rider and saying he was worse than the others will never be an argument.

 

[blackcat]

simple boffin termz

counterfactual = way too many variables, 2 b factual

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Take it easy pal.

I deleted my posts Neworld, it is not a fair discussion on my behalf, my apologies to Foxxy and the rest of believers, on the data; I asked for junior results of der Jan.

The remark 'Ullrich got robbed' was a trigger, again my apologies.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Difficult for you. Very well understood by those in the sport.

While fans have trouble grasping these facts they have been well known in the sport for years. No amount of endless posts will change that.

You are welcome to ignore the public side of this. Doping doctors of the era had both lance and Jan at times looking like gym rats. Or Bruyneel questioning JV's contractual worth because of his poor Hct/Vo2 ratio. David Walsh writing about the link between muscle density and oxygen delivery.....but there is much more then that. Unlike you I have met and talked to most of the riders, DS, staff and doctors on the team. Talked watts, vam, recovery, and yes blood. The story is almost always the same

The formula is pretty simple. Get as much Oxygen into the blood as possible, allow it to move as freely as possible, insure it is absorbed as quickly as possible by as much muscle as possible.....all while being as light as possible. Riders who bodies reacted favorably to this formula prospered, those who didn't retired.

Yeah right: Almost looks like a bodybuilder rolleyes:

 

[will10]

BavarianRider, do you understand the phrase "at times"?

 

[Bavarianrider]

BavarianRider, do you understand the phrase "at times"?

Well if Ullrich didn'T look like a "gymrat" in June, then when did he

In Winter? Not really

 

[peterst6906]

Winter? Not really

No, he just looked more like the gym then...

 

[GJB123]

Interesting thread with a lot of sensible and a lot of stupid things being said.

I, for me, would love to believe that Ullrich was a freak of nature and therefore destined to rule GC-cycling for a generation. Just because I like the guy and his demeanor. But truth be said, there is no way I can be sure, given the PED-riddled nature of the era he competed in.

Having said that, I think we need to stop with the (imho) stupid assertions that Ullrich was fat, lazy or some kind of body builder(does anybody notice the apparent contradiction in these assertions?). If you take his length and weight and the muscles he clearly had, the guy might not have been a fly weight but it wasn't like he was obese or fat in any way. Although not skeletal Ullrich was quite lean and fit at least at the times he needed to perform. Compared to the skeletal little guys he might have looked huge but compared to an average male of the same age and length not so. I think this is part of the myth created by the LA-camp and his enablers that LA didn't beat Ullrich because of a superior PED-program and a corrupt UCI but rather due to his laser-like focus compared to the lackluster laziness of pie-eating and beer-sipping Ullrich.

 

[will10]

Well if Ullrich didn'T look like a "gymrat" in June, then when did he

In Winter? Not really

June of what year?

A picture of a "skinny" Ullrich (was that the best you could find??) doesn't falsify RR's claims.

 

[Bavarianrider]

June of what year?

A picture of a "skinny" Ullrich (was that the best you could find??) doesn't falsify RR's claims.

I am still waiting for the Ullrich looks like a "gymrat" photo.

Matter of fact is, he was always super lean in Une/July.
And i have never seen a photo of him where he looks like a gymrat.

Gymrat would be something like this
Armstrong 07/08

 

[AnotherDan]

Altitude training?

 

[Race Radio]

If you read my posts you would see clearly what phase the training added muscle and how, using a cocktail of drugs, riders would focus on maintaining as much muscle as possible while dropping as much weight as possible.

Riis: Bottle carrier - Tour winner
Armstrong: Can't climb, TT, or finish the Tour- 7 time winner
Indurain-Drops out 3 times, barely finishes- 5 time winner, 80kg climbing star


Tonkov, Berzin, Chiappucci, Rominger, the list is endless of riders whose careers were made by their doping......but not Jan? He was the one natural rider in a sea of responders? Getting dropped in training camp was just a ruse?

 

[Bavarianrider]

If you read my posts you would see clearly what phase the training added muscle and how, using a cocktail of drugs, riders would focus on maintaining as much muscle as possible while dropping as much weight as possible.

Riis: Bottle carrier - Tour winner
Armstrong: Can't climb, TT, or finish the Tour- 7 time winner
Indurain-Drops out 3 times, barely finishes- 5 time winner, 80kg climbing star


Tonkov, Berzin, Chiappucci, Rominger, the list is endless of riders whose careers were made by their doping......but not Jan? He was the one natural rider in a sea of responders? Getting dropped in training camp was just a ruse?

Ullrich's career is totally different to those 3 guys.

Neither was Ullrich a classic specialist who turned into a spinning machine. Nor was Ullrich poping out of nowhere in his 30es, nor was an 80 Kilo guy that turned into superman in his later 2oes.

 

[Neworld]

If you read my posts you would see clearly what phase the training added muscle and how, using a cocktail of drugs, riders would focus on maintaining as much muscle as possible while dropping as much weight as possible.

Riis: Bottle carrier - Tour winner
Armstrong: Can't climb, TT, or finish the Tour- 7 time winner
Indurain-Drops out 3 times, barely finishes- 5 time winner, 80kg climbing star


Tonkov, Berzin, Chiappucci, Rominger, the list is endless of riders whose careers were made by their doping......but not Jan? He was the one natural rider in a sea of responders? Getting dropped in training camp was just a ruse?

The more I reread the last 10 pages...I really do think we're trying to explain the same doping schemes, response to doping, and explanations of winning.

Without more data, facts we're at a stand-still

 

[thehog]

If you read my posts you would see clearly what phase the training added muscle and how, using a cocktail of drugs, riders would focus on maintaining as much muscle as possible while dropping as much weight as possible.

Riis: Bottle carrier - Tour winner
Armstrong: Can't climb, TT, or finish the Tour- 7 time winner
Indurain-Drops out 3 times, barely finishes- 5 time winner, 80kg climbing star


Tonkov, Berzin, Chiappucci, Rominger, the list is endless of riders whose careers were made by their doping......but not Jan? He was the one natural rider in a sea of responders? Getting dropped in training camp was just a ruse?

Froome, Porte and Wiggins.

Grupetto riders now GT winners and contenders.

I would agree. Doping skew the results.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Froome, Porte and Wiggins.

Grupetto riders now GT winners and contenders.

I would agree. Doping skew the results.

Yet again, those guys have nothing in common with Ullrich

 

[thehog]

Yet again, those guys have nothing in common with Ullrich

I agree. Ullrich was a phenomenon.

Somehow we're told to believe Froome but not Ullrich?

Logic meet stubbornness.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Yet again, those guys have nothing in common with Ullrich

Froome is just as nice a bloke as Jan, Bjarne is also a top guy to be frank. Wigans, I dont know, seems an enigma, like Porte, like Kerrison.

Hinault was and is a mtf.

Point is?

 

[Bavarianrider]

Froome is just as nice a bloke as Jan, Bjarne is also a top guy to be frank. Wigans, I dont know, seems an enigma, like Porte, like Kerrison.

Hinault was and is a mtf.

Point is?

Seems like you're running out of arguments.
Again, please show me the career similarities between those guys you mentionened and Ullrich. Or better hoiw those guys would proof anything against Ullrich.
By the way iam still waiting for the gymrat picture.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Bjarne is also a top guy to be frank.

Why would Bjarne want to be Schleck?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Seems like you're running out of arguments.

You really think so? I think it is for the best I leave you guys swimming along the Jan myth, it is not good for me to express myself on the period der Jan was riding, I get a little upset when I post on that given period of cycling. Others are much better and less emotionally involved/vocally equiped to do that job.

Why would Bjarne want to be Schleck?

Them funny bones...

He is a nice guy, even funny, in a Danish way

Edit: der Jan is also a great bloke

 

[Netserk]

I agree. Ullrich was a phenomenon.

Somehow we're told to believe Froome but not Ullrich?

Logic meet stubbornness.

This thread is about Ullrich. Not Froome, Porte, Wiggo or Sky. Please respect this.

It's not always I'm in a forgiving mood.

 

[Bavarianrider]

You really think so? I think it is for the best I leave you guys swimming along the Jan myth, it is not good for me to express myself on the period der Jan was riding, I get a little upset when I post on that given period of cycling. Others are much better and less emotionally involved/vocally equiped to do that job.Them funny bones...

He is a nice guy, even funny, in a Danish way

Edit: der Jan is also a great bloke

You were making the claim that Ullrich would have been a total bum without doping.

Yet you provide absolutely nothing to back it up.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Ullrich was a phenomenon.

How exactly are you coming to this conclusion? i.e. What criteria?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Them funny bones...

I am the gift that just keeps on giving.