Jan Ullrich

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Jan 27, 2010
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
What we do know is Ullrich beat Olano in 1994 Worlds TT, and now loses 5 minutes in the TT of the Vuelta...
I'm not sure how we can tease out the elementary logic, sporadic temporal relationships, and their relative results from a under 20yr old cyclist from years ago?

Agreed it is pretty hard. What can be seen is that Jan was placing well if you consider the sketchy results posted by you, and all the positive top 3 placements he had from age 18 to up the 1997 TdF win.

As for the relative poor results who knows what the explanation was, maybe he was between girlfriends.
 
The problem is off course that you can't cherry pick results to make a point in almost any case, but most certainly not for a young and upcoming pro in the most PED-riddled era of cycling.
 
Apr 7, 2011
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Yeah, that must be why Jan ended up 34 seconds down on Olano in the 1995 Vuelta prologue. In 7K that is. Another 5 minutes down in a 41K TT that Vuelta.

He did much better in the mountains, losing only 32 minutes on stage 8, climbing with mountain goats like:
105. Wust (Cat/AIe) a32’ 29
106. Knaven(TVM/Hol)id.
122. Ozers(Mot/Lit)id.
123. Abdosjaparoe (Noe/Uzb)id.
12S. Calcaterra (Sae/Ita)íd.
127. Livingston (Mot/USA)id.
129. Hincapie (MoR/USA)id.
135. Vogels (Nov/***)id.
139. Ulrich (Tel/Ale)id.
140.Van Hooydonck(Nos/8e1)id.
144. Simeoni (Car/Isa)id.
145. Andreu(MoR/U

The next day he climbed with the same goats, losing only 15 minutes.

Abandoning on stage 15, 1 hour and 52 minutes down in GC, surrounded by guys like
109. Van Petegem (TVM/BeI).al h.52’31”
110. Weltz(Mot/Din)a 18.52’ 53”
111. Wesemann (Tel/Ale)al h.53’44”
112. Ozers (Mot/lit)al h.55’OS”
113. Livingston (Mol/USA).... al h.55’24”
114. Meler ÇFVM/Sui)al h.56’30”
115. Lance(Gan/Fra)alh.57’03”
116. Kummer (Tel/Ale)al h.57’32”
117. Van Hooydonck(Nov/BeI)a 1 h.58’23

A full ten months later der Ulle was 101 seconds down to Bjarne for the Tour win. Gotta love them marginal gains. I do wonder what guys like Kasper Ozers were thinking, or Bouwmans, or Livingston. Even Bernd Dietz showed more climbing abilities. Or Boogerd for that matter.

Not only that, in a lot of newsitems surrounding Ullrich in 1993/1994 the word 'SPURT' is found, spurt means sprint.
No doubt he was a very talented rider, so was Voigt, so was Rumsas etc etc.


I agree, to a certain extend. Too bad I cant find the 1994 Baby Giro GC.
Two important things about 1995.

First of all, Ullrich was originally sheduled to race the Tour de France.
However, shortly before the Tour in 1995 Godefrot decided not to include Ullrich in the squad.
Remember, in 1995 Telekom had only 6 spots at the Tour.
The pressure was very high on the team. Godefrod decided that it wouldn't be smart to put Ullrich as a rookie in that kind of situation.
Ullrich was very disapointed about this obviously. His training was sheduled for a peak in July. Not being able to race during the Tour, Ullrich crashed all the records on the mountains of the Schwarzwald.
This story is credible as it was told by memembers of Telekom way before there have ever been doping accusations against Ullrich.
By August, Ullrichs shape was already declining and he also got ill.
As the Vuelta arrived, Ullrich' shape wasn't too good anymore.
Furthermore, Ullrich was not on Epo in 1995.
Telekom had start working with Epo in 1995 but not full scale. They were in a trial and error year so to say. They had realized that Epo was wide spread in the whole peleton and that they had to do something about it. So they started it too, but not all riders were already included yet.
One of the guys who was a first test person within telekom was Bert Dietz, who also talked about this alter. Remember, Dietz won a mountain stage in the Vuelta in 1995.
However, Ullrich was not put on Epo before 1996.
So a 21 year old rookie with a declining shape coming of an illness was doing is first Grand Tour in a field that was 80% Epo juiced to the max.
It's not too suprising that his results weren't that good in this Vuelta.
But using this as a proof against Ullrichs talent is far fetched considering the whole story.
 
Oct 3, 2012
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Bavarianrider said:
I finally found a trust able source about Ullrichs V02 max. According to this article it was tested to be 88. The journalist describes how he did a wattage test in the same condition as Ullrrich.
Zeit is a trust able newspaper, so i think the statement about Ullrichs V02 max can be considered trust-able, too.

http://www.zeit.de/zeit-wissen/2006/03/Maschine_Mensch.xml

So but who can say that this vo2max of 88 and the anaerobic thresold of 430W are without epo and co?
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Bavarianrider said:
I finally found a trust able source about Ullrichs V02 max. According to this article it was tested to be 88. The journalist describes how he did a wattage test in the same condition as Ullrrich.
Zeit is a trust able newspaper, so i think the statement about Ullrichs V02 max can be considered trust-able, too.

http://www.zeit.de/zeit-wissen/2006/03/Maschine_Mensch.xml
You missed this part

"At the beginning of training camp, the group has to wait for him,"
The guy with the 88 Vo2 getting dropped in training camp? They even talk about how he would show sudden improvements in form that nobody could explain.

Sounds like Lance
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Race Radio said:
The guy with the 88 Vo2 getting dropped in training camp? They even talk about how he would show sudden improvements in form that nobody could explain.

Sounds like Lance
Is that Schumacher doctor anyhow related to Coyle? Maybe Ully had an efficiency rase in 4 days of 16%?
 
Race Radio said:
You missed this part



The guy with the 88 Vo2 getting dropped in training camp? They even talk about how he would show sudden improvements in form that nobody could explain.

Sounds like Lance
I his autobiography he tells how he was only doing 50km rides 3 times a week over winter.

Vo2 max doesn't supplement laziness.

He used to train on the wind trainer even when the weather was good.

He was an enigma. Many in the industry acknowledge the fact. There was only one Jan Ullrich.

He was nothing like Lance. Not in the slightest.

Just lazy.

Had a lot of problems from childhood which weren't addressed.
 
Race Radio said:
You missed this part



The guy with the 88 Vo2 getting dropped in training camp? They even talk about how he would show sudden improvements in form that nobody could explain.

Sounds like Lance
to be fair that rings true with super talent...it doesn't take long to get back on track after a break eating pies, doing e and partying (which jan was partial to). To an extent its why I have no problem with lemond's recovery in 89. A guy with that level of natural ability could probably ride the giro and then let it rip in the tor. Its guys without that you should worry about....e.g. froome and armstrong
 
Aug 13, 2009
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gillan1969 said:
to be fair that rings true with super talent...it doesn't take long to get back on track after a break eating pies, doing e and partying (which jan was partial to). To an extent its why I have no problem with lemond's recovery in 89. A guy with that level of natural ability could probably ride the giro and then let it rip in the tor. Its guys without that you should worry about....e.g. froome and armstrong
Jan, Like Lance, would find form in 3 days. He responded inordinately to the "Training" of the time
 
Race Radio said:
Jan, Like Lance, would find form in 3 days. He responded inordinately to the "Training" of the time
Vaughters had polluted your head with his Ventoux experiment.

JV was a Prom King at best. He wasn't Jan Ullrich.

He bases all of his observations on what he did on Ventoux.

Ullrich's thigh muscle would eat Vaughters.

You'd be hard pushed to convince many Ullich was a chump.

He simply was the greatest cyclist of his era.

Just had a lot of issues that he never addressed.

Top guy. Just ask Mark Cavendish.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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thehog said:
He was nothing like Lance. Not in the slightest.

Just lazy.

Had a lot of problems from childhood which weren't addressed.
I am of the opionion he is exactly like the uniballer, a PED product. But, instead of the uniballer, he is a nice fellow.

Nice fellows also dope.

You know that.

Wouldnt be the first rider of Peter Weibel who got doped, would it?
 
Feb 20, 2013
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thehog said:
Vaughters had polluted your head with his Ventoux experiment.

JV was a Prom King at best. He wasn't Jan Ullrich.

He bases all of his observations on what he did on Ventoux.

Ullrich's thigh muscle would eat Vaughters.

You'd be hard pushed to convince many Ullich was a chump.

He simply was the greatest cyclist of his era.

Just had a lot of issues that he never addressed.

Top guy. Just ask Mark Cavendish.


he was my hero! that is all!
 
May 27, 2010
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Is that Schumacher doctor anyhow related to Coyle? Maybe Ully had an efficiency rase in 4 days of 16%?
Ullrich has a heart the size of a watermelon, which easily surpasses a pumpkin any day.

Dave.
 
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
I am of the opionion he is exactly like the uniballer, a PED product. But, instead of the uniballer, he is a nice fellow.

Nice fellows also dope.

You know that.

Wouldnt be the first rider of Peter Weibel who got doped, would it?
Did anyone say he didn't dope???
 
Jul 5, 2009
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D-Queued said:
Ullrich has a heart the size of a watermelon, which easily surpasses a pumpkin any day.

Dave.
Not so fast!


Armstrong



vs.

Ullrich



The most epic battles ever witnessed.
 
Apr 7, 2011
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In his younger days Ullrich used to train with heavy steel frames. He also attached two drinking bottles filled with led to his training bike.
Calling Ullrich lazy is a one sided aproach. He might have been at times, but at other times he trained as hard as anybody.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Bavarianrider said:
In his younger days Ullrich used to train with heavy steel frames. He also attached two drinking bottles filled with led to his training bike.
Calling Ullrich lazy is a one sided aproach. He might have been at times, but at other times he trained as hard as anybody.
Agreed. His sudden improvements came from his response to the dope of the day, not from suddenly focusing on his job
 
May 13, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Jan, Like Lance, would find form in 3 days. He responded inordinately to the "Training" of the time
Anybody that ever rode with Greg would say the same thing, that he would start the year over weight and out of shape but found form quicker than most anyone by simply racing. Mind you, I'm not saying he doped, to the contrary, I think some guys have that gift to find form faster than others even without PEDs. The saddest part of this past 25 years is that we'll never know. Sucks!
 
May 26, 2009
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robow7 said:
Anybody that ever rode with Greg would say the same thing, that he would start the year over weight and out of shape but found form quicker than most anyone by simply racing. Mind you, I'm not saying he doped, to the contrary, I think some guys have that gift to find form faster than others even without PEDs. The saddest part of this past 25 years is that we'll never know. Sucks!
I'm not saying Race Radio doesn't have a point, but having followed cycling all these years I definitely agree here.

Greg was often a sausage when he returned from the states and he also suddenly came into form for the TdF. Ulrich certainly was a doper, but his supposed laziness and suffering in the early season are the spitting image of Greg's way of doing things.

And do never forget that most of the blahblah about being gross overweight was sensationalist press. I have seen Jan a few times and fat was the farthest thought I ever had.

And before someone steps in with pictures: I have once made a nice post about it where I posted him ultralean and supposedly fat.. where the funny part was these pictures were just day after day. I also posted pictures where Lance looked like Humptiedumpie, which we all know is not true. This shows that a picture of a cyclist is hardly a trustworthy way to gauge someones bodymass due to the way angles can suggest rotundness which isn't there.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Franklin said:
I'm not saying Race Radio doesn't have a point, but having followed cycling all these years I definitely agree here.

Greg was often a sausage when he returned from the states and he also suddenly came into form for the TdF. Ulrich certainly was a doper, but his supposed laziness and suffering in the early season are the spitting image of Greg's way of doing things.
Really? LeMond's palmares are filled with things like 2nd at Milan San Remo, 3rd at LBL, 4th at Paris-Roubaix... One of the races he really wanted to win was P-R.
 

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