Jan Ullrich

[sniper]

if we start taking away medals, next we might as well start erasing record times up mountains such as the ventoux.
many former dopers still take pride in their doped uphill record times.

 

[ElChingon]

I wouldn't wonder if he already remelt the medal and sold the pure gold. Ulrich is such a poor scapegoat in germany..

He should send them back a picture of himself at a local metal smelter (or what ever its called) with the medal held over the hot crucible (with a stick of some kind, safety first!) then drop something else and show that melting or being engulfed by the molten metal. Come and get it

 

[VeloFidelis]

Ullrich could be holding on to his medals as a F**K YOU to the IOC, UCI and others.

If he is... then it is a well deserved F**k You. And I hope he is getting some satisfaction in doing so.

 

[TheBean]

You are of course right.

Why havent the clean riders of that time come forward and say ''hey, I was clean there, that is my medal!''. I personly would be pretty pee offed and would speak up.

When most stop racing, they are content to leave the past behind. There are some, like LeMond, who are very outspoken and involved. But most choose to quietly coach, mentor, or do something completely unrelated to cycling. The crucible of competition is intense, so I think the clean riders from the past would rather sit and watch this scrum from a comfortable distance.

As for Ullrich, I don't care if he possesses a medal or not.

 

[Benotti69]

When most stop racing, they are content to leave the past behind. There are some, like LeMond, who are very outspoken and involved. But most choose to quietly coach, mentor, or do something completely unrelated to cycling. The crucible of competition is intense, so I think the clean riders from the past would rather sit and watch this scrum from a comfortable distance.

As for Ullrich, I don't care if he possesses a medal or not.

If I was a clean rider and a medal should've gone to me, I would be outspoken and getting involved.

What would've been the point to have taken the harder road in a demanding sport where the rewards are few and when you did win something you sheepishly ignore it as it is in the past. I would want to show my kids, grandkids and more importantly as it was rightly mine.

The sport keeps, rightly imo, going back to the past and retesting samples so if you were clean why not stand up and scream it to the rooftops.

 

[blackcat]

If I was a clean rider and a medal should've gone to me, I would be outspoken and getting involved.

What would've been the point to have taken the harder road in a demanding sport where the rewards are few and when you did win something you sheepishly ignore it as it is in the past. I would want to show my kids, grandkids and more importantly as it was rightly mine.

The sport keeps, rightly imo, going back to the past and retesting samples so if you were clean why not stand up and scream it to the rooftops.

cos paula radcliffe aint clean and she shouted it from the rooftops

 

[red_flanders]

The IOC would chose not to give it to anyone, but i don't really care about medals.

What I do care about is the myth of the level playing field. It was not level, not even close.

I would think Jan Ullrich knows more than a little about the playing field.

 

[smajo.fb]

If he is... then it is a well deserved F**k You. And I hope he is getting some satisfaction in doing so.

LA and other dopers should do the same F**k U to the organizations as IOC, UCI, ASO, WTF, etc. Those organizations were part of this "mess up", they are responsible as much as the dopers themselves for covering the sh*t and giving up the half-punishments to theirs favorites.

 

[Benotti69]

cos paula radcliffe aint clean and she shouted it from the rooftops

I never believed Radcliffe, when she *** herself in a race imo that pointed to PEDS.

But with the retesting in cycling not so easy to shout if you are not clean, they might just check!

 

[roundabout]

I would think Jan Ullrich knows more than a little about the playing field.

A guy who kept on doping in 1998 despite all the police raids has zero authority on what a level playing field was.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The IOC would chose not to give it to anyone, but i don't really care about medals.

What I do care about is the myth of the level playing field. It was not level, not even close.

Is there honour amongst cheaters then? If you get outcheated whilst cheating yourself, is that a cause for concern? Empathy even?

When Ullrich gets beaten by a 34 year old Russian I can imagine he feels the playing field is what it is though. Only the French teams had something to complain about in those days. Yet the controls they - ze French - got in those days were childsplay to circumvent.

Just my opinion.

 

[red_flanders]

A guy who kept on doping in 1998 despite all the police raids has zero authority on what a level playing field was.

I would think he's more informed than almost anyone, and certainly anyone who posts here. What do the police raids in 1998 have to do with what he knows? I would think not much.

 

[roundabout]

I would think he's more informed than almost anyone, and certainly anyone who posts here. What do the police raids in 1998 have to do with what he knows? I would think not much.

He wasn't afraid of police raids. Advantage him over TVM, Festina, ONCE etc.

 

[thehog]

I would think he's more informed than almost anyone, and certainly anyone who posts here. What do the police raids in 1998 have to do with what he knows? I would think not much.

Ullrich raises an interesting point. Level playing field aside he is correct in saying "almost everyone one was doing it" is about right. Of course different riders and teams had better access, more money etc. to dope and get away with it.

I think Jan's point is the UCI and the IOC were complicit in the doping of the time. Whilst not officially endorsed by those organisations they fairly much allowed it to continue and florish.

The irony now is they want their medals back knowing full well at the time whoever won was doping.

Looking back Jan's win in the road race was epic. He showed superior tactics that day to any other rider. Which why I understand that he wants to keep his medal.

Doping was the price of admission into the sport. Maybe T&R will create a specific rule for dealing with victories from this era.

Taking away medals doesn't really achieve much. It shuts people up more than anything.

"Almost everyone at the time was taking performance-enhancing substances," he said. "I didn’t take anything that was not taken by the others. It would only have been cheating for me if I had gotten an advantage which was not the case. I just wanted to ensure I had an equal opportunity.”

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ullrich-refuses-to-hand-over-olympic-medals

 

[VeloFidelis]

If I was a clean rider and a medal should've gone to me, I would be outspoken and getting involved.

Unfortunately none could be found.

 

[D-Queued]

Ullrich raises an interesting point. Level playing field aside he is correct in saying "almost everyone one was doing it" is about right. Of course different riders and teams had better access, more money etc. to dope and get away with it.

I think Jan's point is the UCI and the IOC were complicit in the doping of the time. Whilst not officially endorsed by those organisations they fairly much allowed it to continue and florish.

The irony now is they want their medals back knowing full well at the time whoever won was doping.

Looking back Jan's win in the road race was epic. He showed superior tactics that day to any other rider. Which why I understand that he wants to keep his medal.

Doping was the price of admission into the sport. Maybe T&R will create a specific rule for dealing with victories from this era.

Taking away medals doesn't really achieve much. It shuts people up more than anything.



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ullrich-refuses-to-hand-over-olympic-medals

Absolute physical output isn't the only benefit of doping.

Oxygen deprivation from high physical exertion impairs cognitive function.

Oxygen vector doping would have allowed Jan to think more clearly and do things like develop a winning strategy along with a keener alertness to execute it well, as opposed to merely relying on pure instinct and reflex.

That he may have employed a great strategy cannot (!) be separated from the benefits of PED use. This is the far more likely outcome.

Moreover, an apparently low cognitive capability to differentiate the mental enhancement from PEDs in his success(es) would be further proof of their benefit.

Dave.

 

[thehog]

Absolute physical output isn't the only benefit of doping.

Oxygen deprivation from high physical exertion impairs cognitive function.

Oxygen vector doping would have allowed Jan to think more clearly and do things like develop a winning strategy along with a keener alertness to execute it well, as opposed to merely relying on pure instinct and reflex.

That he may have employed a great strategy cannot (!) be separated from the benefits of PED use. This is the far more likely outcome.

Moreover, an apparently low cognitive capability to differentiate the mental enhancement from PEDs in his success(es) would be further proof of their benefit.

Dave.

True. Also "knowing" you have the power helps with tactics.

Jan actually stayed in Sydney prior to the race for two weeks. Studied the course and trained on George's Hill. He played it very well and won.

He was a very good one day racer and a forgetton fact in the over saturation of the Tour de France.

We may never know but I don't think he would have been doping that day of the road race. The EPO test was just introduced and I see little benefit in doping for that race. Armstrong's performance appears indicative on this.

 

[Race Radio]

Is there honour amongst cheaters then? If you get outcheated whilst cheating yourself, is that a cause for concern? Empathy even?

When Ullrich gets beaten by a 34 year old Russian I can imagine he feels the playing field is what it is though. Only the French teams had something to complain about in those days. Yet the controls they - ze French - got in those days were childsplay to circumvent.

Just my opinion.

Just like all pharmaceuticals response varies greatly from rider to rider. In oxygen vector doping the spread in response is significant. Doping doctors knew this. Managers knew this. Riders might not have understood it but it was talked about. The playing field was far from level

Add to this the willingness to embrace the risks. In 1996 Riis took twice as much EPO and HGH as his teammates, pumped his Hct to 64%. In the 2000's several doctors started enabling transfusions. Most riders refused to go down that path and their career's suffered.

In 1999 France criminalized doping and introduced longitudinal testing for all riders, including juniors. This was years before the Biopassport.

While some can go back and forth about medals and titles the myth of the level playing field is just that, a myth

 

[roundabout]

By some strange coincidence other people with excellent tactics happened to ride for the same trade team.

 

[thehog]

By some strange coincidence other people with excellent tactics happened to ride for the same trade team.

Very true.

Do they keep their medals?

 

[roundabout]

I would guess that Klödi is likely to be a little less polite should somebody ask him to return his medal.

Not to mention the Kazakh vermin.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Superbe info!

It's interesting to see that in 97-98 he had such a different build up (1999 is a bit dificult to compare due to his health). I'm betting you will see that the next years will be more like 98, but if you have the time it's interesting.

I remain sceptical it says anything about doping though, considering known dopers have a much more spread out schedule. I guess it shows the problems Jan had.

On the Epo decision... I doubt that. I don't believe Jan was having qualms about using doping. If anyone decided it it will have been his personal trainer/doctor.

* 11/02/2000 - 19/02/2000
Vodacom Rapport Toer
Endstand in der Gesamtwertung: 1. Steinhauser (Scheidegg) 26:08: 50 h, 2. Elli (Italien) 1:45 min zurück, 3. Ordowski (Weiden) 3:52, 4. Michaelsen 4:04, 5. Hondo 5:35, 6. White (Südafrika) 6:41, ... 10. Wegmann (Münster) 8:15,
32. Ullrich (Merdingen) 33:00

* 01-03-2000 - 05-03-2000
Vuelta Ciclista a Murcia
1. David CANADA (Esp) en 18h09'31"
93. Jan Ullrich (All) à 50'02"

* 8/03/2000 - 15/03/2000
Tirreno - Adriatico
5. Etappe, Einzelzeitfahren (26,5 km): 1. Olano (Spanien) 31:36 min; 2. Hruska (Tschechien) 9 s zurück; 2. Dominguez (Spanien) 28
30 Ullrich (All) 2:07
Gesamtwertung: 1. Olano 19:26:28 h; 2. Hruska 9 s zurück; 3. Dominguez 18 9. Voigt (Berlin) 1:11; 149. Ullrich 28:16

Ullrich doesnt start stage 8

* DNS Circuit Cycliste Sarthe 04-04-2000 - 07-04-2000 due to a cold

* DNS Vuelta Ciclista a Aragón 12-04-2000 - 16-04-2000

* 16-05-2000 - 21-05-2000
GP du Midi-Libre
Stage 4 : Laguiole - Laguiole I.T.T. (26 km)
1 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Festina-Lotus 37.16 (42.2 km/h)
2 Jonathan Vaughters (USA) Crédit Agricole 0.35
3 Unai Extebarria (Ven) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0.38
4 Steffen Kjaergaard (Nor) Us Postal Service 0.46
64 Paolo Tiralongo (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 3.18
66 Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard 3.18

Stage 5 : Saint Geniez d'Olt - L'Esperou (185 km) Mountainstage
1 Gorazd Stangelj (Slo) Liquigas-Pata 4.41.51 (37.467 km/h)
3 David Moncoutie (Fra) Cofidis
54 Koen Deschuyter (Bel) Collstrop-De Federale Verzekeringen 29.52
55 Bert Scheirlinckx (Bel) Collstrop 31.47
68 Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard same time

Stage 6 : Le Vigan - Sète (157 km)
1 Rodolfo Massi (Ita) Cantina Tollo 3.50.03
84 Jonathan Vaughters (USA) Crédit Agricole 13.39 oops
DNF Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard
DNF Jens Heppner (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard
DNF Giovanni Lombardi (Ita) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard
DNF Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard [crash]
''The stage honours went to Cantina Tollo's Rodolfo Massi, in one of his best results since the 1998 Tour before the inquisition began. Now cleared of charges, Massi went on the attack in the first few kilometres of the stage, all uphill. At the top of the 600 m high Côte de Mondardier, he had 40 seconds on a chasing group containing Vinokourov, Moreau and four others. Telekom's Jan Ullrich was already in trouble and later abandoned the stage.''
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/may00/midi006.shtml

* 26/05/2000 - 1/06/2000
Deutschland-Tour
29. GER ULLRICH Jan
TT: 1. ESP PLAZA ROMERO David
9. GER ULLRICH Jan TEL 02'33"

* 13/06/2000 - 22/06/2000
Tour de Suisse
Stage 5 : Sierre - Sierre I.T.T. (30 km)
1. LAT BELOHVOSCIKS Raivis
3. GER ULLRICH Jan TEL 16"

Tour de Suisse, General classification
5. GER ULLRICH Jan TEL 02'07"

And so on. Very poor untill Switzerland.

 

[42x16ss]

He wasn't afraid of police raids. Advantage him over TVM, Festina, ONCE etc.

Puh - lease! The release of the '98 test results shows otherwise, ask guys like Stuey O'Grady

 

[VeloFidelis]

While some can go back and forth about medals and titles the myth of the level playing field is just that, a myth

The concept that a completely clean peloton would be a level playing field is also a myth.

 

[Le breton]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Race Radio
While some can go back and forth about medals and titles the myth of the level playing field is just that, a myth

The concept that a completely clean peloton would be a level playing field is also a myth.

VeloFidelis, you will have to explain what you mean, or else ...

Isn't a completely clean peloton the definition of a level playing field?